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so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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starvingartist
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19 Jul 2014, 11:10 pm

AspergianMutantt wrote:
Tis womans fault that they attract men for being so fare, so let us cloth them from head to toe, even place a vale upon their face, then place it in our religious laws and texts as preordained and out of mans hands as it is written as the word of god and so is law and so thus must not be questioned. Problem solved.


dude, put the bottle down and go to bed.



AspergianMutantt
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19 Jul 2014, 11:13 pm

starvingartist wrote:
AspergianMutantt wrote:
Tis womans fault that they attract men for being so fare, so let us cloth them from head to toe, even place a vale upon their face, then place it in our religious laws and texts as preordained and out of mans hands as it is written as the word of god and so is law and so thus must not be questioned. Problem solved.


dude, put the bottle down and go to bed.


Hey, millions of Muslims can't be wrong, can they?
8O :?
:lol:


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MXH
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19 Jul 2014, 11:17 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
MXH, do you mean she said she wanted sex, then changed her mind?

Changed due to how I acted, by not just going for it



em_tsuj
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19 Jul 2014, 11:20 pm

starvingartist wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:

Why do you take things so personal, then come out swinging when having a debate?


injustice and people being sh***y to others makes me angry, i've always been that way. i'm much more likely to get angry when i witness someone else being attacked than if attacked verbally myself--when people attack me verbally i don't pay much attention to it, i tune it out and dismiss it. i also wouldn't say that i "come out swinging", either. i just call people on their BS when they're being mean or ignorant/hateful, especially if they're doing it to people i like.

people should expect to be heard as long as they can express themselves without being hateful and ignorant. being upset about men/women treating one badly in the past in dating situations is not an excuse to come here and spew vitriol at people trying to offer advice and help. there is a basic level of respect that needs to be met if one expects to be heard by anyone, whether online or in real life. that was my point.


Please don't use any of my posts to make your point. I go out of my way to be respectful, although, admittedly, I am not perfect.



starvingartist
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19 Jul 2014, 11:34 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:

Why do you take things so personal, then come out swinging when having a debate?


injustice and people being sh***y to others makes me angry, i've always been that way. i'm much more likely to get angry when i witness someone else being attacked than if attacked verbally myself--when people attack me verbally i don't pay much attention to it, i tune it out and dismiss it. i also wouldn't say that i "come out swinging", either. i just call people on their BS when they're being mean or ignorant/hateful, especially if they're doing it to people i like.

people should expect to be heard as long as they can express themselves without being hateful and ignorant. being upset about men/women treating one badly in the past in dating situations is not an excuse to come here and spew vitriol at people trying to offer advice and help. there is a basic level of respect that needs to be met if one expects to be heard by anyone, whether online or in real life. that was my point.


Please don't use any of my posts to make your point. I go out of my way to be respectful, although, admittedly, I am not perfect.


i didn't say you were being disrespectful, nor did i mean to imply it. i was responding to your comment about people being angry and defensive and talking past each other, etc. which was why i quoted you (i also included the post of the person you were responding to, to be fair)--i was talking to you about others being angry/disrespectful. i don't beat around the bush like that--if i thought you were one of the ones being disrespectful i would come out and say that directly.



aspiemike
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19 Jul 2014, 11:42 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
aspiemike wrote:
I have read in this thread or at least an allusion to this idea as well, and Boo even mentioned his side of the story.

Girl and Guy are kissing and making out because they want to. Girl asks guy to go down on her. While he is not comfortable with the idea, he agrees and does it anyway. Later on, he regrets that he did this. Instead of taking responsibility, he then blames her and accuses her of rape. Turn the tables and you have a position that I have dealt with. A girl in the past (not my gf) blamed me for something that she agreed to do, simply because she came to regret that it all happened too soon. There was no alcohol involved either. I left her alone because she asked me to. This isn't the girl who cheated on the boyfriend either (that I referred to previously), but I certainly felt betrayed. I found out later on that she was with her ex the day prior to this incident and spent the night. I believe she put me in a dangerous position.

Me and the gf had a discussion about this once. She feels its unfair to the guy to take all responsibility if girl agrees to do something with him, then regrets it later. I do agree with her on that.


aspiemike, in a situation like that, I'd ask these questions:

Did the guy know the girl was unenthusiastic at first about the idea of going down on him?
If so, did he keep trying to get her to do it anyway?

"Come on, for me, just try it, this once," etc. -- this is not a good idea. Some people will go along with it in order not to make a scene or seem selfish. And then it will blow up in your face, because you pushed someone to do something they didn't really want to do.

If the girl was all, "sure," and went right down, and then later came back and said, "I think that was too fast" -- well, I don't know how you're supposed to know, then. Unless of course there's a huge power differential between the two of you -- say you're her boss -- in which case many would argue that you should just stay the hell away from the whole relationship. It's part of why many business have rules against boss/employee dating.


It was me doing oral, not her. There was enthusiasm, but she later regretted it.
She in fact also pushed me into dating instead of establishing friendship first and of course was still dealing with an ex boyfriend in the background. Lucky for me I had two weeks to think it over while on vacation and she for some reason wanted to give me a second chance and I turned her down (the ex-boyfriend was revealed after I shot her down).

There was no boss-employee relationship. I don't know how you even brought that up or even thought that there was a power differential. If anything, my ego clashed with hers and it wasn't pretty (constant fighting as I alluded to earlier about how girls fresh out of relationships have a tendency to rush things). She went back to the boyfriend and complained that he was never there, and was somehow thankful that i would listen to her. She seemed to like abusive relationships. Eventually she decided to dump him and be single because she felt she needed the time to soul search and not look for something serious (her words).

However, its not even her that I am concerned about, I apologized to her long ago even though I never knew if I did anything wrong. That would be why we somehow ended up on friendly terms for a while and she had a shoulder to cry on. However, she lost that shoulder once I started dating my girlfriend.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Jul 2014, 2:18 am

tarantella64 wrote:
MXH wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:

1. Don't go "complimenting" women on the street or hit on women who don't know you. That's harassment.
2. Don't "compliment" or hit on women at work. That's harassment.
3. If you're not already in an established relationship, don't touch a woman without asking if it's all right, and don't assume she's okay with whatever it is you're doing because she hasn't tried to fight you off. Ask her. In words. If she doesn't want it, then don't.



Sadly its not that easy in this world, especially with the complexities of humans. Many women would take a man that stops at every step to ask permission as some sort of wuss. Or that it ruins the moment, etc. That you don't does not mean that there's many out there. At the same time most men would take it as an invitation to escalate. Which we obviously know isn't an 100% total.

The only real thing to do that is forward enough yet safe enough, which to do you'd have to... be good at reading people. Which judging by the forum we are in is something not many are good at. Especially in situations you don't engage with everybody in. Even the most high functioning ASD who hasn't had the practice and experience in this field will show it.


You gotta ask yourself, then: do you really want to be with someone who expects you to read her mind with high accuracy? If she's annoyed with you for not "just knowing" when and how to touch her when you're still new to each other, what else is she going to expect you to know?



But those are so many, so many; in every online discussion I've seen regarding the kiss; the majority of women there were against asking first and were more enthusiastic regarding "just kiss me" approach.
Go see yourself, do an extensive google search on this and then come back to talk here.

Are you saying that we guys here should only date the 5% of women who are pro- ask_before_kiss_on_date (and against not being asked verbally)? Because this much guarantee most us a life of celibacy.



tarantella64
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20 Jul 2014, 4:40 am

5% seems a little ridiculous, Boo.

You know, go ahead - just don't be surprised if you wind up either Temkinned or stuck with a woman who expects you to mindread.

I'm sorry if that gets in the way of your scoring. I mean I know, it's practically like castration, asking if a woman actually wants something before laying your hands on her.



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20 Jul 2014, 4:47 am

tarantella64 wrote:
5% seems a little ridiculous, Boo.


I agree. It's a little ridiculous to think that it's as high as 5%. It's probably down around half that.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Jul 2014, 6:43 am

tarantella64 wrote:
5% seems a little ridiculous, Boo.

You know, go ahead - just don't be surprised if you wind up either Temkinned or stuck with a woman who expects you to mindread.

I'm sorry if that gets in the way of your scoring. I mean I know, it's practically like castration, asking if a woman actually wants something before laying your hands on her.


When from the opinions I saw in those online discussion, they are barely 5%, also there were a significant lot who were ok with "both" approaches.
Maybe ....just maybe such discussions/forums draw a specific types of women hence the numbers might be bit skewed.

Don't worry about me; I am not gonna have sex with a woman without an obvious verbal enthusiastic consent; but I was talking about this kissing thing and I really need to learn and read further about this matter.

Also, stop projecting rape accusations and enough of your sexist implications; I am not on a quest of "scoring".



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 20 Jul 2014, 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Jul 2014, 7:15 am

Come to think of it: there's another "transition."

If a woman allows me to caress her fingers, then she begins to caress my shoulders, I believe that's an invitation to at least offer up my lips. Obviously, if she demurs, I'll continue to allow her to caress me.

Using this "passive" approach, I believe at least some women will just grab me and either say or imply, "will you kiss me already, godammit?"

If the man should demur in this instance, he's horsemeat! The lady will leave the home, doors slamming.



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20 Jul 2014, 9:15 am

OK, guys, here's your chance to discourage women from a behavior that I have heard men universally complain about: "she expects me to read her mind!!"

Stop trying to read women's minds. Eventually they will stop expecting it. Voila! Problem of "did she consent or didn't she?" is eliminated.



The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Jul 2014, 9:59 am

Eureka13 wrote:
OK, guys, here's your chance to discourage women from a behavior that I have heard men universally complain about: "she expects me to read her mind!!"

Stop trying to read women's minds. Eventually they will stop expecting it. Voila! Problem of "did she consent or didn't she?" is eliminated.


They won't care because a lot of other NT guys would be ready to play along.
This can only work if all men of the planet together adopt the approach you're suggesting.

I think the best aspies' bet is to forge a relationship through a friendship; because once she fells for a guy she wouldn't find the "asking for a kiss" as a turn off - I guess.

Maybe that's the only way to bypass these stupid dating rules (which again, not only promoted by men but also by a lot a lot of women too).



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20 Jul 2014, 10:36 am

^ I agree.

I think everyone, but especially spectrumites, should approach relationships by first forging a friendship. Physical attraction alone is no guarantee of long-term compatibility.



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20 Jul 2014, 11:57 am

Eureka13 wrote:
^ I agree.

I think everyone, but especially spectrumites, should approach relationships by first forging a friendship. Physical attraction alone is no guarantee of long-term compatibility.


If you do forge a friendship, how do you make the switch from "friendship" to "relationship", or even know if it's appropriate to try? Usually the advice I see says "if you're a good match it just happens magically!", but I think that it's a load of hogwash...it still requires deliberate and conscious actions on the part of both parties. I am extremely hesitant to make any sort of romantic overtures to friends or acquaintances, because I never have the slightest idea if they will be reciprocated, and I have lost 2-3 good friendships in the past as a result of this. That's part of the reason I like online dating...intentions of both parties are known from the start, without any of the nebulous middle ground to navigate.

I actually agree with your post, it's just that I have no idea how to make it work in reality.



The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Jul 2014, 12:05 pm

Stargazer43 wrote:
Eureka13 wrote:
^ I agree.

I think everyone, but especially spectrumites, should approach relationships by first forging a friendship. Physical attraction alone is no guarantee of long-term compatibility.


If you do forge a friendship, how do you make the switch from "friendship" to "relationship", or even know if it's appropriate to try? Usually the advice I see says "if you're a good match it just happens magically!", but I think that it's a load of hogwash...it still requires deliberate and conscious actions on the part of both parties. I am extremely hesitant to make any sort of romantic overtures to friends or acquaintances, because I never have the slightest idea if they will be reciprocated, and I have lost 2-3 good friendships in the past as a result of this. That's part of the reason I like online dating...intentions of both parties are known from the start, without any of the nebulous middle ground to navigate.

I actually agree with your post, it's just that I have no idea how to make it work in reality.



I have no idea either; but this how most relationships I've seen started, one thing I've noticed tho that the just-friendship phase is pretty short, things take a different curve pretty much early.

What you've mentioned is really the only advantage of online dating.