so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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by observations and hearing how how mom feels about various topics.
society trends are passed down generation to generation. which is why its slow to change.

I stand by saying that one's child isn't a third party.
if I was arguing with people about guns I wouldn't go to my child to prove that others agree with me I would seek out one of the people i know who isn't pro gun or anti gun.

in this case it would be better to poll other forums or ask women at colleges/high school. family members are likely to agree with family as they share a similar upbringing aseptically when it is a parent who raised them asking the question

not even aware of her age. but at age 5 I was aware of dating and the whole read signs and kiss. I found the idea of kissing a girl to be disgusting at the time though.

When I was 9 years old, back in 1970, I had a puppy-love experience with an 8-year-old girl who lived by the credo: "Love is never having to say you're sorry," from the movie "Love Story."

I kissed her on the swings, and I liked it. I didn't ask to kiss her, either. She puckered her lips.

I didn't get used to tongue-kissing, though, until I was 15. I was taught the proper technique by a more experienced girl in my neighborhood in Manhattan. Before then, it was icky stuff.

sly, no, I don't talk with young children about sexual approaches, jeez. But I have been quite respectful of her person all along. There's a point in childrearing where the kids aren't physically dependent on you to wrangle them into clothing and wipe their butts and bathe them and pick them up and carry them around, and they become more "their own". And at that point I eased off touching her without her permission. If she doesn't want to be touched, hugged, tickled, kissed, picked up, grabbed, etc., it doesn't happen -- because unless I'm getting her out of the way of an oncoming car, I ask her first. So she's grown up with physical respect as a default, and yeah, the idea of someone just coming along and smooching her without asking is very weird. That's now, of course; she doesn't date yet. But I bet she'll be much more at ease with rebuffing advances she doesn't want than a girl who's used to being handled is.

And yes, lots of kids, old and young, do have social ideas different from their parents'. The idea is not to brainwash them; it's to prepare them to make up their own minds and make their own lives.

well yet again, kissing doesn't equal sexual approach.

thats how you chose to raise her, most parents touch their kids to give hugs and scuh up to and past 18. I had to get use to hugging even though I didn't like to and the touch is sensitive. people hug and touch it just is how life is. they almost never ask.

idk if i would say lots. it is more common people raised in a house will feel the same as the house. do people sometimes change yes.

most parents don't teach both sides of topics. artiest for example don't teach their kids creationism.
Christians on the other hand do get taught both, despite this most i've met stay christian.
odds are she won't become anti feminist. can women be Misogyny?

see I am pro gun, my family isn't but they aren't anti gun either. this left it open for me to go either way.
if my family had been anti it is very likely I would be too, as all I would have heard growing up is how bad guns are and crazy gun owners are.

say a guy is Misogyny and raises his kid and all that kid hears is how crappy women are how women are just toys for men's enjoyment. will that kid likely be 1. a Misogyny or 2. a feminist.

racism is bad yes, and it seems quite logical that it is, yet it existed for gnerations, cause the parents passed it on to the kids.

this isn't brainwashing. this is just families passing on their believes.

brainwashing is locking a person away and saying the same thing to them over and over until they beleive something they knew was wrong.

passing on traditions and beliefs isn't

anyways I choose not to accept your kid as a valid third party just as I would not use my sister as one to sway you. the whole discussion is rather useless. you believe as you do and we don't. neither side is going change.

if I met a girl who enjoys kissing without being asked, then why does that bother you so much. we have shown that not all women believe as you do.

^ Yes, what you are saying is all true, what made me have way more liberal views than many of my countrymen is due to the fact that both of my parents had careers, it was very rare for women of my mom's generation to work, especially in the science field (hers is advanced math); Her and two colleagues who are still in touch with were the only females in the their class, and I recall well in the elementary school of a survey about working moms, turned out that only about 3 to 4 kids in my class had working moms.
Now most women of my generation work, the single ones of them (working moms are still not that common).
Also being raised by very moderately religious family is probably what made me to go deep into religion to explore and to question it (leading to agnosticism/atheism).

Even tho I am not Muslim now at all in the faith sense, It still doesn't feel natural to drink alcohol too much (and yes, I've tried it them all) or eating pork; I am still culturally-Muslim atheist I guess.

Will reply to other stuff in a bit (very swamped with work, sorry), but in the meantime just have to post this, because it's priceless. This woman has some very serious nerve and I hope she was careful about who she approached, but:

http://jezebel.com/woman-confronts-catc ... 1608516447

i am printing out a bunch of those cards, and i'm going to give one to every guy that harasses me in public from now on. thanks for the link.

^ Is it stuff like that that makes you feel justified in insisting what's best and appropriate behavior for all men?

Well, I don't think it's appropriate for women to catcall others, either, or touch other people sexually without permission. Why do you persist in thinking this is only about men? I mean really, we've been around this now several times.

Let us know how they react!

"Only men" is not the same as "all men". I'm not as interested in whether you have reciprocal views for all women (since I'm a guy and the argument started being about a guy), although it would likewise be sexist if you insisted all women couldn't read obvious enough signs to warrant acting without asking. You're "astonished" each time I bring up that some men are capable enough to pick up on obvious signals and can comfortably (for both parties) forego asking, which tells me you believe all men can't. You're likewise "astonished" that I keep defending myself against a negative stereotype, just as the guy in my analogy pages ago was astonished at women insisting they can drive without wrecking.

Is asking the safest, most direct thing a man can do to respect people's boundaries? Probably. Do some men have no other faculties they can draw on to respect boundaries? No. I've said in the past why I prefer being spontaneous: I have different romantic preferences. You can shoot me down for being different than you, but forgive me if I don't think it's appropriate or polite to make you feel bad about your approach to dating.

Not surprised, those tend to be religious; funny that I've heard this Adam/Eve excuse from Muslims too.

I wonder how common catcallers are among atheists/agnostics; I myself cat call in the street all the time!! But with cats only, "psst psst" .

I' ve read some of these cards and I think they are useless with such people; waste of time and you're unnecessarily putting yourselves at risk, it's brining zero change; also useless for people who never harass because it would be too common sense to them.

What would be more effective is to find the root reasons making these men think like this (and apparently religion is a strong one).

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 22 Jul 2014, 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i'm expecting "b***h!" or "dyke!", which is what i usually get when i do anything that indicates i'm not interested--that way if it actually works and they apologise i'll be pleasantly surprised, but if they don't apologise i won't be disappointed. it's not like i really expect the types that do this in the first place to have good manners. here's hoping i get surprised with some basic human decency.

RE: "street harassment"

Thought I'd throw in my unique perspective as a genderqueer. Sometimes I'm out in public as a "girl," and sometimes I go out in public as a "guy."

I think I've actually experienced more street harassment as a guy than as a girl. Granted, I'm not particularly attractive as a girl, but I find it interesting nonetheless. I swear, as a dude, I've gotten more unprovoked threats to "kick my f___t ass," from random men than I ever have as a girl. Heaven forbid you accidentally make eye-contact with an alpha-douche.

Question for (real) men: have you ever experienced that kind of street harassment, or am I just an a***hole magnet???

i got more threats of violence and homophobia when i had short hair a few years back--the way i dress hasn't really changed (i still don't wear skirts or heels or anything like that) but having longer hair seems to mitigate my "masculine" clothing for most guys. different sort of harassment, but just as sh***y to experience. if i had a dollar for every time somebody shouted "dyke!" at me from a moving car as i walked down the street back then i'd be a rich woman.

The study at streetharassment.org reports that harassment levels for gay men, though (I think) not so much for gay women, are also very high. Overwhelmingly the harassers of both men and women are men. Straight men also report harassment, though not at levels as high as other populations'.