Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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I think this only works because of the humor involved, but I could be wrong.



Playing with eye contact is definitely something women really like. The like the feeling of being able to read your mind just by looking you in the eye.



I rarely do



How does one show intellectual talents indirectly?!



Being able to just be myself is essential in any relationship for me, so I can strongly relate here...

What do I think?
I think there is NO SUCH THING as competition. I believe we are all walking entities on a rock, each of us deserving happiness.
My head is in the clouds, but that's where I believe realism exists.
I don't think that nice people are at a disadvantage and I don't believe in primative competition.
As humans, we should be above and beyond such primative feelings.
No such thing as competition, failure, or defeat, when it comes to general life.

Your head truely is in the clouds. You seem to have such an idealised view of the world I find it mindboggling....

How does one show intellectual talents indirectly?!

By allowing them to be discovered as opposed to just telling someone straight up that you are a supergenius at whatever it is you are a supergenius at.

I think one of our problems with communicating with the NT world is our perspective on learning their social skills. We are taught that we are making up for a deficiency. This leads to self hate and insecure feelings about ourselves. Instead, I feel it's best that we see it as learning a more primitive language.

NT's communicate 80 percent throught body language, vocal tones and facial expressions. Chimpanzees communicate almost entirely through body language, facial expressions and vocal tones. We communicate almost entirely through written language and spoken word. Do you see a pattern?

We are a species of man that is discarding primitive communication. This has become evident to me when I dated 2 aspies in a row and realized that the emotional connection was so intense that NT women just couldn't satisfy me anymore. Even beautiful ones that show interest in me couldn't interest me enough to pursue them. I swear it felt like a chore to do so.

I am totally down with Asperger support groups. How many of you live in Columbus Ohio?

Obviously I don't throw my IQ into people's faces, but I do tend to enjoy talking about topics that either go over most people's heads or that are pretty controversial like geopolitics, metaphilosophy, the decline of Western civilisation, the legalisation of so-called "hard drugs", etc. While I obviously don't go into this kind of topics with people I just met, small talk feels so unnatural and unpleasant to me I find it hard not to go into any intellectual topics at all and frequently end up eg. analysing music or film in the same way a professional reviewer would do.

While I'm aware this is not the right thing to do and I would really like to keep conversation light-hearted and shallow, I still fail to find a way to avoid conversations from getting too serious or deep.



I'm pretty confident with who I am and how I think. I'm very much aware of the fact that NTs use a quite primitive and near animalistic way of communication most of the time. I just find it very hard to adopt that language, feel comfortable while doing so, not feel like I'm betraying who or what I am and stick to that kind of communication for longer than a few minutes.

I apologise if that sounded pretty arrogant and condescending, but this is by no means intended to offend NT people



I wouldn't generalise. I've dated an Aspie woman for years and I felt far less of an emotional connection or an intellectual connection with her than I've had with several of the other women I've dated. I do not wish to offend any of the Aspie women out here, but to me many of them come off as lifeless, antisocial, condescending, shallow and boring individuals. Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in dating any Aspie woman ever again.

I'm currently in a relationship with an NT woman with whom I have both an emotional connection and an intellectual connection that's stronger than anything I've ever felt with any other woman. What matters is not so much whether a woman is NT or not but rather whether she has a lot of life experience, whether she's openminded, whether she has a lot of willpower, whether she has a strong capacity for rational thought, etc. Not all NT women fall into the category of petty, ignorant, irrational, narrowminded, arrogant and shallow individuals. Admittedly the exceptions are rare, but they do exist.

Most of the posts here fail to dissuade me from the idea that most 'nice guys' are still just looking for sex and/or emotional caretaking, rather than an equal relationship. When you refer to women in general as 'them,' and make blanket categorizations like 'they are more emotional,' 'they are less rational,' 'they are all petty and selfish,' or whatever, you come across as seeing women as some sort of non-human class from which you nonetheless want something.

Treat a woman as a friend and a human being FIRST - imperfect, but deserving of respect anyway - and you might build something that's worthwhile. Putting her on a pedestal is NOT respect; it's building an image of what you want her to be, putting that on the pedestal, and expecting her to conform. Jumping off the pedestal hurts a hell of a lot less than falling or being knocked off.

HEAR, HEAR, LKL!

That's just your prejudice speaking. I even know a guy who rejected every single oportunity to have sex with one of his ex's during their entire relationship (which lasted for several months) because he felt there was something lacking emotionally (she wasn't into cuddling, which was a prerequisite to sex for him) and he didn't know how to share his feelings about this with her, even though she was very eager to have sex with him.

So how do I know all this? I actually learnt about him not wanting to have sex from my girlfriend (who happens to be his ex's best friend). The guy himself (whom I've known for 10 years now and is one of my best friends) never even mentioned any details about his relationship to me at all because he's just as closed about these kind of topics to his friends as he is to his girlfriend. Only after I confronted him with what my girlfriend had told me was I able to figure out the precise causes of him not wanting to have sex with her. That's how emotionally sensitive and protective he is. Nevertheless, he's a guy who can take care of himself pretty well and he's one of the smartest people I know.

Just for the record: I know what she looks like and she's definitely not unattractive



I explicitly said that MOST NT women fall into the category of petty, ignorant, irrational, narrowminded, arrogant and shallow individuals, but that there are some exceptions as well. The only kind of women I'm interested in are those exceptions, which my girlfriend belongs to.



Obviously!



It seems you're confusing a very common female perspective with a male perspective. You see, it's women who tend to have a very unrealistic and idealised perspective of their partner, demand of him that he conforms himself to fit that idealised perspective and dump him if he fails to do so. Men on the other hand tend to idolise the women they love for precisely who they are (imperfect but fascinating creatures). They not only respect them but admire them as imperfect human beings and the last thing they want is for them to change into something else.

What you seem to be doing here is applying your own feminine standards on men and pretend those are these men's standards, while in fact they are your own.

Yes! I have this problem. I can't properly judge the balance between trying too hard to win a girl's heart, and not hard enough. If you are really nice to her, and try to hide any hint of attraction, you come off like her brother, or a gay friend. If you go too full-on, you come off like a weirdo creep.

With the girl I really like at work, I pay a lot of compliments, make small talk, make her laugh, ask questions about her, and listen to the answers, and tell her 'ooh, that's a pretty dress' or whatever. She seems to like me, so the nice guy approach does sometimes work. But its not an act. I'm just being myself. I like to think I am a nice guy. And if you can think that about yourself, but not in an arrogant way, women will think you're a nice guy as well.

Pretty much, yes. It took me many years of insecurity and self-dillusion to figure that out...



If you actually are a nice guy, it's not that hard to come off as nice. The problem is that she won't be interested in you if you're just nice to her and you make no attempt to seduce here (which goes just a little further than what you've been doing so far), yet too much attention of that kind will creep her out. You said it yourself.

You've got to lose the nice guy shtick. As a person with autism it makes it difficult to learn those counter-intuitive skills in order to attract a woman, because it goes against logic.

I suggest to all you guys who are having lady problems to check out David DeAngelo. You can download his stuff for free on torrent sites, or watch a few vids on YouTube.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGa9B5c6B10[/youtube]

Basically, in this video mr DeAngelo is suggesting you should avoid putting too much attention in what you're saying and use your primal male instincts to focus on HOW you say things. While this is probably the best advice he could give to neurotypical men, men with autism do not have these instincts and I wonder if his approach could therefore possibly work for men with ASS. Have you tried his advice yourself?!?

I have, online. He has a program specifically for online dating, and how to carry that over into the real world. I went from absolutely NO responses to responses to 80% of my messages. I got someone's number last night. First time I've ever done that. I highly recommend his stuff.

Yes, there are elements that are difficult for us autistics, such as eye contact, but sometimes NOT making eye contact shows a level of high status, because you want her begging for YOUR approval, not the other way around.

Whether or not you have the instincts doesn't matter, because you can learn from repetition. My dating skills are nil. I've been single for around 6 years, because there's always something I do that pushes them away, such as appearing way too eager to be around them. That seems wussy and clingy. Shift that around and make her chase you.

'you are prejudiced' is not an argument.



First, anecdote =/= data; second, not having sex does not preclude expecting a woman to emotionally caretake (I'm not talking about mutual support; I'm talking about the guys who need constant stroking because they can't manage their own insecurity or anger). Third, differences in libido (including different preferences about cuddling, positions, fetishes, etc) can kill a relationship all by themselves, with no 'nice guy' or abusiveness issues from either party.



Ok, YOU would like to have sex with her; that doesn't mean that he wanted to.



This is an open forum, and IIrc I referred in my last post to 'the postS on this thread,' not to Salonfilosoof. However, you still place the blame for failed relationships and lack of relationships entirely on the women; in real life relationships, very rarely does it occur that only one party is entirely guilty and the other entirely innocent.




'Your experience is not valid' is not an argument.
Having jumped off a pedestal or two myself (one due to a guy seemingly believing that I was some sort of nature goddess), I have to just assume that you are entirely ignorant of the real female experience and dismiss what you are unwilling to even try to understand. Women and men are more similar than they are different. Pretending that one gender or the other is entirely composed of virgins or whores, nice guys or as*holes, nice girls or b*****s, or whatever false dichotomy you prefer, is not going to solve anyone's relationship problems; nor is pretending that one's own gender is 'almost always' the reasonable party in any transaction.

I'm glad it's working out for you. Let us know if you find a girlfriend using this method. If I ever become single again, I might want to try it myself

If you don't give any arguments yourself, what do you expect from me other than to come to the conclusion it's nothing but your prejudice speaking?!?



I'm not a psychologist or sociologist. My understanding of the male psyche is based on myself and the men I have met in my life. Hence, I only have anecdotal references to go by. If you have any scientific data to prove your point, feel free to provide any references to it.



I can't judge how emotionally needy he is in a relationship since that's impossible for me to judge from my perspective.

While I do acknowledge that insecure men have a need to affirm themselves and try to find that affirmation in a relationship, I fail to see how this is any different from the behavior of insecure women. Are you suggesting that insecure women do not try to find affirmation in a relationship? Are you suggesting that insecure men are by definition more clingy or needy than insecure women? How would you compare the behavior and attitude of insecure men and insecure women?



Preferences about cuddling is not so much libido related but rather a affection related. A man tends to measure a woman's affection towards him by the amount and way of cuddling she initiates, much like a woman tends to measure a man's affection towards her by the amounts of spontaneous compliments and gifts he gives her. Also, do you acknowledge the fact that there actually are nice guys who enjoy having sex with a woman but still give an emotional relationship with their girlfriend a higher priority than having sex with them?



I would like to have sex with her? WTF?!?

I merely mentioned her not being unattractive because if I didn't mention that you'd probably have suggested he didn't want to have sex with her because he thought she was unattractive... which wasn't the case. He just missed emotional reprocicity from her side.



Now you're completely making things up. At no time did I place the blame for failed relationships and lack of relationships entirely on the women. How do you even come up with that nonsense?!



Thusfar you have been making one false assumption after the other, sometimes completely making things up (like your previous claim). Now why am I to take you seriously on this?

You say you've jumped off a pedestal or two yourself?!? Feel free to explain what expectations these men have of you that you couldn't deliver. Feel free to explain in what way they wanted you to conform.



If you would have carefully read my previous posts, you would have known that I said somewhere that most men as well as most women tend to be petty, ignorant, irrational, narrowminded, arrogant and shallow individuals. Women just tend to be worse in that area because they rely more on their intuition. Does that make all men free of charge? Of course not ! !

I was just arguing that many (if not most) supposebly nice guys are actually just that : nice guys who do respect women and do not wish to dominate you or use you for whatever purpose. You disagree with that for apparently no other reason but your own prejudice against such men as a consequence of bad experiences you've had. Nevertheless, assuming you're right would you then also say most supposebly nice girls are actually b*****s seeking to dominate or use men? If not, aren't you contradicting yourself here?!?

You're the one apparently thinking in black-vs-white. I see greys all the time and this should have been obvious if you cared to read my posts more carefully.