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so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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tarantella64
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23 Jul 2014, 12:44 am

sly279 wrote:
you tel me to quit putting words in your mouth then repeatedly do the same.

I HAVE NEVER SAID WOMEN ARE GOLD DIGGERS.

saying they want a guy to have a car, job house is not saying WOMEN ARE GOLDDIGGERS.


Sly, please, stop this. I did not say you said this. That was my example: it's a commonly-used sexist trope. Please stop reading every example as having to do with you. That's what multiple people are trying to tell you: you are assuming people are talking about you when they are not, and have not said anything about you in their posts. If it has to do with you, I will write "Sly is ___" or "Sly does ____" or some such.



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23 Jul 2014, 1:02 am

tarantella64 wrote:
sly279 wrote:
you tel me to quit putting words in your mouth then repeatedly do the same.

I HAVE NEVER SAID WOMEN ARE GOLD DIGGERS.

saying they want a guy to have a car, job house is not saying WOMEN ARE GOLDDIGGERS.


Sly, please, stop this. I did not say you said this. That was my example: it's a commonly-used sexist trope. Please stop reading every example as having to do with you. That's what multiple people are trying to tell you: you are assuming people are talking about you when they are not, and have not said anything about you in their posts. If it has to do with you, I will write "Sly is ___" or "Sly does ____" or some such.


then perhaps like most people you should have said as an example ......

otherwise as you're post was a response to me it sounds like you saying I said that.

I am a men when one says most men, I am likely part of the most. as I am not the perfect fantastic few.

of all the men i've known none of done any of the things you two talk about. I can't believe a majority of guys do such things. out of 100 guys by that logic. at least some of them would have to be rapist, or sexual asualters or harassers.

this sexism stuff seems to fallow the same trend as the gun control debate. with assumptions on both sides.
what the gun control stuff has taught me is that polls and studies can be rigged or made to seem more then they are. if they can be then any study or poll could be. then theres different studdy groups. one study says a another says b.
one says the average penis is 5" the other says its 6.5" .

the fact remains saying most men do .... makes me feel horrible. its generalizing it is impossible to know most men do something without polling all men in the united states. polling men in portland can only tell you what men in portland are like and only a small number at that as most studies and polls hardly break the 5k mark.
so I will stand by my some guys do bad things but the majority likely don't.

I also never said in my post so long ago, that tarantella does or tarantella wants. yet you two took it to mean all women wanted the things I said. therefor you must want them.

I am really glad I live where I do. you all paint the rest of the nation and world to be some horrible place.

I'm never leaving my state or city.



tarantella64
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23 Jul 2014, 1:09 am

Quote:
of all the men i've known none of done any of the things you two talk about. I can't believe a majority of guys do such things. out of 100 guys by that logic. at least some of them would have to be rapist, or sexual asualters or harassers.


For a majority of guys to do such things, at least 51/100 would have to do them.

But in any given sample of 100 men? Sure, I'd believe some have raped, assaulted sexually, or sexually harassed. No stretch of the imagination there. Just my own fairly ordinary experience in the world says that much, but other women's experience seems to confirm. I expect by now someone's assembled numbers.



sly279
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23 Jul 2014, 1:24 am

well none of the 100 guys I've know have.

strange maybe it varries by area. :roll:

anyways I guess I'll just have to continue being sexist while you can't be sexist.

I tend to believe in the majority of people are good or the nation wouldn't exist. I hardly hear on the news about how these problems are so widespread.

I am not saying they don't happen just that I find it unlikely that a lot of guys do these things. some yes. but if it was alot then how on earth do they find wifes. why would a woman marry such a horrible person.

but it sounds like women are good and men are bad. blah blah blah.

people are bad and people are good.

I don't consider 51% a majority for me it would have to break the 75% mark. 51% is just slightly more then half. half is not a majority. half can't get their way a majority could.

anwyas I'm am done with this I hate fighting and I feel super depressed and horrible now.



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23 Jul 2014, 1:49 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
I suspect "manly men" would have less of an issue.


I think that really depends, I mean my frat boys would harass lone guys or people who stood out in some way, like overgrown playground bullies, but there are also guys out there who do the whole 'vying for dominance' thing with any guy they perceive as a threat to their status. I've dealt with both, and IMHO it's the latter you have to watch out for, as they'll do incredibly stupid things in order to save face. I very nearly got into it with this little guy one time because a coworker and I were joking around coming out of our restaurant as he was walking by, and he thought we were laughing at him and seemed entirely intent on making a fight out of it even as we tried to defuse things, and I had to have had 6 inches and 80 lbs on the guy, to say nothing of having my friend right there too. That's one of those male behaviors that I understand on a biological level, but don't experience myself, I'm far too practical to put much value in the opinions of strangers and see far too many downsides to physical altercations to actively seek them out. I mean in my case, I know that I'll legally be held responsible no matter how things happen, but even beyond that I view pointless aggression as a lose/lose proposition.


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tarantella64
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23 Jul 2014, 3:48 am

Dox47 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I suspect "manly men" would have less of an issue.


I think that really depends, I mean my frat boys would harass lone guys or people who stood out in some way, like overgrown playground bullies, but there are also guys out there who do the whole 'vying for dominance' thing with any guy they perceive as a threat to their status. I've dealt with both, and IMHO it's the latter you have to watch out for, as they'll do incredibly stupid things in order to save face. I very nearly got into it with this little guy one time because a coworker and I were joking around coming out of our restaurant as he was walking by, and he thought we were laughing at him and seemed entirely intent on making a fight out of it even as we tried to defuse things, and I had to have had 6 inches and 80 lbs on the guy, to say nothing of having my friend right there too. That's one of those male behaviors that I understand on a biological level, but don't experience myself, I'm far too practical to put much value in the opinions of strangers and see far too many downsides to physical altercations to actively seek them out. I mean in my case, I know that I'll legally be held responsible no matter how things happen, but even beyond that I view pointless aggression as a lose/lose proposition.


yes for sure. That's a different thing -- not sexual harassment, just plain harassment for dominance -- but I recall walking around bad neighborhoods and thinking man, I'm glad I'm not a great big guy on my own, because I'd be a walking provocation and get my ass kicked by some gang of guys.



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23 Jul 2014, 7:33 am

Ohoho, would you look at this.

tarantella and starvingartist are getting defensive and threatening to call the mods on a guy who isn't even visibly an MRA. Imagine that. I wonder how they'd react if someone... Wait. Oh, right, people have already called on them for being misandrists and implying that other members of the forums are rapists. Impressive degree of hypocrisy, people! I haven't had a show like this all week! We all know what you've said, and general consensus appears to be that you've been attempting to stealth-insult people then hide behind the rough equivalent of "Oh, but I'm on WrongPlanet! I'm not good enough at this whole socializing thing to know what implications are!"



Seriously, people, stop claiming to speak for whatever group you're claiming to speak for. Unless you're an elected representative for a large quantity of people or you have personally polled a very large sample size, you do not have a platform to stand on. Quote *unskewed* statistics that are applied to the populace at large, rather than limited sample sizes in small communities of like-minded individuals.

You cannot tell another person they are or aren't "into" someone based on what they like and don't like. You cannot tell another person that their opinions are invalid or worthless because they directly contradict your own personal beliefs, and not in a way that you can ignore or pretend to be threatened by.

I don't care what the statistics and general opinions of the public are. If you, however, attempt to misrepresent reality, then regardless of what topic it's on, you've already lost the argument and whatever you say is just blowing hot air. You cannot win in a debate by disputing the validity of something that has been verified or can be very quickly verified.

Really, the only person here who's actually winning the debate is the Face of Boo, and he's doing so by being far more patient than the entire rest of the forum (including myself) has been.



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23 Jul 2014, 8:22 am

Who am I saying I'll report to mods?



Eureka13
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23 Jul 2014, 10:18 am

I'm going to make two statements here to demonstrate what the women are saying vs. what the women are being accused of saying.

What the women are saying:
"98% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by men." (Based on statistics complied by the Federal Government. This is not an opinion, or a guess; this number is based on records of actual crimes committed and reported to law enforcement.)

What the women are being accused of saying:
"98% of men are rapists."

No one is saying most men are rapists or sexual assaulters; it is a matter of the fact that the vast majority of these crimes are being perpetrated by men.

MEN are also victims of rape; it is not exclusively women who are being raped and abused. However, it is almost exclusively men who are commiting these crimes.

Also, to use tarantella's example of shoplifting. In the example she gave, there may be only a small percentage of the total population of women who are shoplifting; however, the department store management has determined (in this hypothetical scenario) that 98% of the shoplifting is being done by women.

My response (were that scenario real) would be to start talking to women (mostly through online forums, etc., since I don't have much of a real-life social group either), and start trying to raise awareness of the problem among women so that ultimately there could be found a solution to at least mitigate, if not eliminate, the problem. The very least I could do is not confuse the issue by arguing "Not all women shoplift! I'm not a shoplifter!" (In this hypothetical example) It IS a problem, and trying to skate around by doing nothing but repeatedly asserting (or thinking) "well, I'm not a shoplifter, so this dicussion doesn't apply to me." Sure it does. It applies to everyone, male and female, in the form of higher prices being charged by stores to offset the cost of shoplifting. The other reason a solution is desired and necessary is to remove the taint of suspicion within store owners and operators towards women, since clearly most of the problem is coming from women, and therefore ANY woman is viewed as a potential shoplifter.

Likewise, men can raise awareness in other men of how big a problem the "rape culture" is. No, it's not most men who are doing it, but since most of it is being done by men, it's something that men need to start thinking about and working amongst themselves to help solve. Likewise, the reason a solution is desired and necessary is to remove the taint of suspicion that ANY man (*not* ALL men) could be viewed as a potential rapist, since it is clearly men (not all of them, but some of them) who are doing almost all of the raping. Don't you think that removing that taint of suspicion is a worthy cause?

Whenever women say "there's a problem with men committing rape and sexual assault," and men's automatic response is "UH UH NOT ME STOP CALLING ALL MEN RAPISTS" or "YEAH, BUT WOMEN DO _______," no solution is possible. Some men already get it and are trying to spread rape awareness. Among men. That is the only way for this problem to ever end. Sticking one's head in the sand and deying the problem will accomplish nothing but to escalate the "war" between the sexes.

I hope, Sly, that you can see the difference between the two statements and understand that NO ONE is accusing you personally of being a rapist.



Last edited by Eureka13 on 23 Jul 2014, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Jul 2014, 10:43 am

^^^
Also keep in mind that a large percentage of rapists have Antisocial personality disorder.(i.e. they're often neither NT or autistic)



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23 Jul 2014, 10:52 am

Venger wrote:
^^^
Also keep in mind that a large percentage of rapists have Antisocial personality disorder.(i.e. they're often neither NT or autistic)


I believe there are a lot of diagnosed sociopaths and/or psychopaths among both convicted rapists and convicted murderers. So, yes, these perps are often neither ASD or NT.



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23 Jul 2014, 11:06 am

They're also usually passed of as being NT to the casual observer since they appear normal on the surface, which I believe to be the source of that "all men are potential rapists" BS. lol



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23 Jul 2014, 11:45 am

Dox47 wrote:
I think that really depends, I mean my frat boys would harass lone guys or people who stood out in some way, like overgrown playground bullies, but there are also guys out there who do the whole 'vying for dominance' thing with any guy they perceive as a threat to their status. I've dealt with both, and IMHO it's the latter you have to watch out for, as they'll do incredibly stupid things in order to save face.


That's true.

I remember one time that a dude 5 inches shorter than me threatened to kick my a$$ because I "looked at his boots wrong." 8O

Quote:
I very nearly got into it with this little guy one time because a coworker and I were joking around coming out of our restaurant as he was walking by, and he thought we were laughing at him and seemed entirely intent on making a fight out of it even as we tried to defuse things, and I had to have had 6 inches and 80 lbs on the guy, to say nothing of having my friend right there too. That's one of those male behaviors that I understand on a biological level, but don't experience myself, I'm far too practical to put much value in the opinions of strangers and see far too many downsides to physical altercations to actively seek them out. I mean in my case, I know that I'll legally be held responsible no matter how things happen, but even beyond that I view pointless aggression as a lose/lose proposition.


I've heard some autistics claim men are easy to socialized with because they're more direct. It's stuff like this that makes me think male socialization is just a different minefield.


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23 Jul 2014, 1:14 pm

Eureka13 wrote:
I'm going to make two statements here to demonstrate what the women are saying vs. what the women are being accused of saying.

What the women are saying:
"98% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by men." (Based on statistics complied by the Federal Government. This is not an opinion, or a guess; this number is based on records of actual crimes committed and reported to law enforcement.)

What the women are being accused of saying:
"98% of men are rapists."

No one is saying most men are rapists or sexual assaulters; it is a matter of the fact that the vast majority of these crimes are being perpetrated by men.

MEN are also victims of rape; it is not exclusively women who are being raped and abused. However, it is almost exclusively men who are commiting these crimes.

Also, to use tarantella's example of shoplifting. In the example she gave, there may be only a small percentage of the total population of women who are shoplifting; however, the department store management has determined (in this hypothetical scenario) that 98% of the shoplifting is being done by women.

My response (were that scenario real) would be to start talking to women (mostly through online forums, etc., since I don't have much of a real-life social group either), and start trying to raise awareness of the problem among women so that ultimately there could be found a solution to at least mitigate, if not eliminate, the problem. The very least I could do is not confuse the issue by arguing "Not all women shoplift! I'm not a shoplifter!" (In this hypothetical example) It IS a problem, and trying to skate around by doing nothing but repeatedly asserting (or thinking) "well, I'm not a shoplifter, so this dicussion doesn't apply to me." Sure it does. It applies to everyone, male and female, in the form of higher prices being charged by stores to offset the cost of shoplifting. The other reason a solution is desired and necessary is to remove the taint of suspicion within store owners and operators towards women, since clearly most of the problem is coming from women, and therefore ANY woman is viewed as a potential shoplifter.

Likewise, men can raise awareness in other men of how big a problem the "rape culture" is. No, it's not most men who are doing it, but since most of it is being done by men, it's something that men need to start thinking about and working amongst themselves to help solve. Likewise, the reason a solution is desired and necessary is to remove the taint of suspicion that ANY man (*not* ALL men) could be viewed as a potential rapist, since it is clearly men (not all of them, but some of them) who are doing almost all of the raping. Don't you think that removing that taint of suspicion is a worthy cause?

Whenever women say "there's a problem with men committing rape and sexual assault," and men's automatic response is "UH UH NOT ME STOP CALLING ALL MEN RAPISTS" or "YEAH, BUT WOMEN DO _______," no solution is possible. Some men already get it and are trying to spread rape awareness. Among men. That is the only way for this problem to ever end. Sticking one's head in the sand and deying the problem will accomplish nothing but to escalate the "war" between the sexes.

I hope, Sly, that you can see the difference between the two statements and understand that NO ONE is accusing you personally of being a rapist.


^^^^this +10000000000.

if anyone reads this thread (or others on similar topics) and what you get from it is "women are talking about rape and harassment, therefore they are misandrists and calling all men rapists"--then you ARE part of the problem, not the solution. you may not be a rapist yourself, but you're helping to keep alive a culture in which people who DO rape feel safe and supported and justified in what they do, because they have people like you to help obfuscate the issue and blame victims/survivors anytime someone brings up rape/harassment publicly.



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23 Jul 2014, 2:05 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
The thing is, ows, it's not simply about you, or about "preferences", like it's a menu; it's about social standards that leave all parties safe and respected.


I have social standards that leave all parties safe and protected, let's stop acting like I don't. Mine are only different from yours.

tarantella64 wrote:

Say for the sake of argument that you're infallible. Take the very best case. You read it right every single time, you know when to go for the smooch and when to keep lips off. Say also for the sake of argument that we are going to build all social rules around you. So this business of "ask first" -- why, that's ridiculous, because ows knows his business.


Why are you even building an argument around having my own preferences imposed on everyone? If you start with a false premise, you can still get a valid argument, albeit not a sound argument.

tarantella64 wrote:
The problem is that a large percentage of the population that is not ows does not read other people's body language correctly when it comes to inviting sexual attention (even though they may insist they do). That's part why the rape and assault statistics are so high, and why it's necessary to give advice like, "If you don't want him to kiss you, you can back away from his advance or freeze."


I agree with Boo on this, actually. The men who have raped someone did so because they wanted to, not because they "misread" body language. Misreading body language (i.e. "She wanted it") is an excuse for the rape, not a reason for it.

tarantella64 wrote:
So this social standard that fits your own for-the-sake-of-argument infallibility -- call it the ows standard -- still isn't working so hot in general. Maybe you object to this, and would say, "No, it should just be for me, then! Because I'm really careful!" The problem is you don't go around wearing an "I'm really careful" badge. Women have no way of knowing, "Oh, I should be cool with ows just going for it with me, because he's a total stud who knows what he's doing. I shouldn't expect him to ask first."


I disagree with the bolded part very strongly. You make it sound as if the woman had no influence or input whatsoever on whether I went for it or not. Let's see. Maybe I should have asked to kiss her when my future gf wrapped her leg across my waist while we were laying in bed. Or maybe I should have asked to kiss another future gf after our first date ended up in a tickle fight on her bed in her home. Or maybe I should have asked when I had already kissed someone the date before, just to make sure. Or maybe I should have asked to kiss another future gf after we had already expressed feelings for each other months ago and we were sitting alone on her couch holding hands (LDR situation). There was never a case when I point-blank just kissed someone without some sort of lead-up that they had also participated in. Let's make that distinction.

tarantella64 wrote:
Clearly the "just for ows" standard is ridiculous, so now, if you're still fighting this "everyone should ask before laying hands on another person they're not already involved with" thing, you back away from this to an "it's not that bad if someone makes a mistake." But here are all these women who've been raped and assaulted saying, "No, that's not true. This damaged my life, and every time a guy feels entitled to paw me without asking, I have to live it again."


:lol: <-- the only appropriate response to this. Contending this point with you seems futile. As long as you continue to insist I believe the consequences of making a bad move are negligible, I'll continue to laugh at you. Didn't you read my story? And you still believe this? :lol:

tarantella64 wrote:
So okay, you retreat from that, and go to, "But a lot of women don't want to be asked." Well, we've taken care of that, too. One, if a woman's going to dump you because you asked, she wasn't all that into you in the first place. But beyond that, a lot of women *do* want to be asked. So by asking, the worst that happens is that a woman who wanted mindreading and wasn't really into you dumps you; by not asking, the worst that happens is that you re-traumatize one of the 1-in-4 women (more outside the US) who didn't actually want to be touched just then. It seems to me the major downside is with not asking.


Again you're assuming that there exist no other faculties for respecting personal boundaries besides asking.

tarantella64 wrote:
Finally, let's please ditch this "spontaneous" thing. Asking is also spontaneous. Touching someone without permission has nothing to do with spontaneity and romance that asking doesn't also have.


If we agree with you here, the word spontaneity would lose all f*****g meaning. People would be doing everything "spontaneously". Let's also make a distinction between "touching someone without permission" and "touching someone without verbal permission". The two are not the same. People don't give obvious cues and then shy away when you act on them, unless they're as*holes or teases. I certainly don't expect a woman who felt unsafe around me to do that.


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23 Jul 2014, 2:51 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
So I'm reading all these threads about the pain of rejection and anger/bewilderment about having to go find women and make the first move, and suddenly it hits me: jesus, if I believed my value in the world had to do with having a man, and that it was imperative that I get me one, any acceptable one, so that I was forever on the prowl, I'd feel horrible too. Because of course men would reject me left and right.

I get horniness (I'm a middle-aged woman, believe me, we know), and I get loneliness (you want lonely? Have a toddler as your lone dinner companion for two years solid, you have to be lonely and responsible simultaneously), but I feel no social pressure to find a man. There isn't any imperative directing me to go learn the game and game the women till I win. So I wonder, if that were removed from young men's set of beliefs -- get women or be loser, be rated on quality of woman you can get -- how much fear of women, and anger at women, would evaporate?

If the ability to get dates/attract women played no role at all in your perceived social standing, guys, how do you think this would affect how you feel about women?


Its an interesting supposition, but I don't know how it could actually be accomplished. It comes down to the nature/nurture thing. I do not think if you could just raise boys in a new conceptual system that it would eliminate the problem, at least not entirely. The nature imbedded in our genes is still there, and the nature is strong with many.