Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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This.

avoided this topic for a while as so many seem convinced 'nice guys' don't exist.. maybe they don't and my own experiences and those of others have not yet revealed all of their truth so to speak.
often people say 'nice guys' are pushovers etc, i think that's just how they're perceived by some, or most people.. i'm bitter atm, been 'pushed over' for want of a better explanation..
i don't know that these 'nice guys' exist but i believe that what could be called 'nice guys and girls' do exist.. not always 'nice' so much as just always decent, respectful and loyal etc. they may occasionally falter but then so did Jesus, so the story goes.. i think that doesn't make them any less 'good' you know?
i think it's more the intention , than the action that really defines if you're doing 'good' or otherwise.
anyway, just a thought. if it inspires something then great, i'm 'hopeful' but not expectant..
good day to you all, fudo..
<<i mean genuinely good day there not, as it is sometimes used, to 'storm off' so to speak.
fudo

There are a lot of nice girls out there if you know what to look for. As an NT, some nice guys I'm attracted to, some I'm not. It doesn't have much to do with whether they are especially assertive or not. I hate jerks, which is why I've dated so little. I tend to be very (perhaps overly) cautious. To all the nice guys out there, there are nice girls out there who would love to be with nice guys. They might suffer from being shy and lacking confidence, too, like nice guys. I know many nice girls who feel discouraged because they have failed to find a good man as a partner, or have been overlooked for their lack of confidence. Also, there are people, men and women, who look for emotionally vulnerable people with a lack of confidence to take advantage of. I've been exasperated seeing great, sweet, caring, loyal, "nice" guys date women who treat them badly. They have a misplaced sense of loyalty to their bad mate. It's a very complex issue, but I love my AS boyfriend of three years because he is sweet and caring. He went through several bad relationships before he met me. Women took advantage of his Theory of Mind problem to jerk him around. He believed what they told him because he could not see otherwise. He could not see their manipulation, indifference, sadism, and bad intent. Eventually, he developed lower standards concerning the quality of romantic relationships, and became a little bitter. Eventually we trusted each other and raised the bar, so to speak, to a higher standard of relationship quality. I wanted a better relationship with HIM and it took me a long time to gain his trust. We love each other very much, but it has taken a good deal of work to make our relationship successful, even though we always treated each other relatively well. By most standards I'm a nice girl, one who worked hard to bring a nice guy out of his shell. Nice guys can find good mates, it just takes a lot of work sometimes. There are a lot of good, caring people out there who would love to have a nice guy in their lives, but, unfortunately AS people tend to miss that sometimes. Just keep trying to get a good mate and keep being a nice guy, or nice girl.

I'll go a bit off topic here, but I would really appreciate your insight. I can relate a lot to this, although being a woman I can get away with a higher level of politeness , but it's still occasionally an issue.

So - why is it so important to be able to challenge and use aggression towards others, especially if you're not close friends? I know my politeness is perceived as keeping people at arm's length and that's exactly what it is. So people will either respect my boundaries or can't accept them and have an increasingly aggressive and challenging behaviour - probably looking for a response. Which of course ends badly, as I see it as pestering and sometimes almost an assault and will only want make sure they never approach me again - so I use what's seen as an unacceptable level of aggression myself and probably say some hurtful things too. My own perception is that I'm entitled to defend myself from such aggressive behaviour after making it clear it's unwanted (politely, of course ).

So that's my own perspective - could you maybe shed some light on how things work on the other side? Is it part of bonding? Is sometimes provoking/challenging behaviour from a man towards a woman a form of flirting? Is my polite attitude seen as rejection and do you have any idea why is so hard for people to stop when it's obvious what they do is not welcomed?

A lot of questions, I know, but any insight would be highly appreciated - I really have a problem with this. I don't care much if others see me as stuck up or arrogant, but understanding their side might make it easier to be more tolerant, as for now I can't help myself to see them as you say - bastards.

I believe that a certain amount of challenge and aggression is unavoidable if two people have anything much to do with each other, though it's possible to keep things 100% cordial if the relationship is distant enough. I guess that's what you do - keeping others at arm's length and so being able to stay detached from any annoying behaviour. But if two people move into friendship, they have made an emotional investment, so any insensitive behaviour from their friend can threaten that investment, and force them to challenge it. With a fully-fledged relationship, sometimes the tiniest behavioural things from one partner can seriously upset the other in a way that it wouldn't if they were barely interested in each other.

Yes I think aggression between two people is evidence of some kind of bonding, even though the people involved at the time will probably see it as losing closeness....indeed it can lead to that if the matter isn't resolved. If for example a couple of ex-partners start fighting whenever they see each other, for me that's a sign that they're still close. Otherwise they wouldn't still be able to wind each other up.

I never heard of it being a form of flirting.......possibly if it's done in fun and the other party picks it up as harmless teasing - I've had conversations like that which have been good fun, though mostly people don't seem to like it, and I too can get fed up with it unless it's with the right person. It can be good because it allows the participants to stop walking on eggshells, and shows them that they can be critical of each other without starting a war. And I think it's an excellent step towards a good friendship or relationship if two people can seriously challenge or criticise each other and then resolve the problem......but the "standard" mating game doesn't seem to encourage this. So people tend to get very close and then they have an argument which they can't resolve because anxiety levels are now running too high - they've invested a lot in each other so the stakes are very high, and they have no experience in conciliation!

I guess the people who get mad at you are somehow reacting to your politeness - they might be picking it up as uncaring. There was one partner of mine who kept telling me that I should tell her to shut up or something....for a long time I just couldn't do that, then when I finally did round on her for annoying me about something or other, my aggression was a lot more vitreolic than she'd bargained for, and she didn't end up respecting me more like she'd thought she would. I suppose what she wanted was a more measured response.

Thank you - I can certainly relate to the last part - if pestered long enough my response will be more than people bargained for.

Just to make something clear - I was only talking about people I've just met or acquaintances - I never had any problems handling challenging-aggressive behaviour or conflict with friends, partners or people I like. I don't like conflict much, but know it's unavoidable and has to be solved sooner than later. I think I might associate it with a certain level of closeness and that's why I'm not willing to engage with those whom I don't like or know well enough.

It might also be a personality/cultural thing. Some people thrive on challenge and even conflict, while I've been more or less raised to see it as insecurity/need to compensate for something. So probably "what we have here is a failure to communicate"

But I didn't realise that people pick this up and see it as rejection or coldness even in superficial relationships.

Well, it's only a theory of mine. I seem to remember that Dr.McCoy would get very annoyed at Spock because he never lost his temper.....at the time I couldn't see why he got on his case about it so much, but now I think I understand better. Humans get uptight from time to time, and if you don't, people tend to think there's something wrong, maybe.

I used to simply hate any sign of anger......probably because of the way my parents were - they'd either be cordial or fighting, and when they fought it would often lead to one of them leaving or threatening to leave, so I think I associated any kind of anger with impending doom. My totally peaceful persona worried counsellors, who said they couldn't believe my aggression had vanished......I just said that I thought aggression was a redundant emotion. But later on I questioned my attitude, and began to wonder whether fighting was somehow necessary.

Yes I get what you're saying and it seems to be quite common with anger issues inside the family.

But after this exchange I realise how relative/subjective our perception of aggression can be. For instance, your last post associates it with anger, I associate it with intrusion. You seemed to have had more difficulties with partners/family, I struggle with strangers/acquaintances.

I had a similar shock coming from Sweden to England. What goes for polite in Sweden would make you passive-aggressive/a pushover in England, what Brits see as standing up for yourself would be perceived as savage in Sweden (sorry for the generalisation - but yes, raising your voice or getting in someone's face, "making a scene" is one of the Swedish Capital Sins unless you're drunk). When I was told guys I thought to be aggressive were just flirting they were probably just being "cheeky" - unfamiliar for me. Understanding the circumstances and cultural/personal background makes it easier to navigate and be more tolerant. So your insight was indeed helpful.

Yes culture would make a difference.......luckily I've steered clear of much of the mainstream British working class, as they're often too coarse and aggressive for my taste.

Nice guys who are so nice that they are afraid to step on any toes at any length will always finish last.
However, people who know how to be nice but know when to be assertive finish far ahead of jerks or nice guys who don't have that skill

The problem is in the definition of "nice guy". A true "nice guy" is the one who is nice when he needs to be nice, but still has a backbone. The (incorrect) definition of "nice guy" in the dating world refers to a person who has no backbone, and lets people walk all over him.

so depressing

I have only dated one idiot in my life, that was my ex-husband and honestly, I married him to get out of my house...sigh...other than that, every guy I have ever dated is a VERY nice guy...my husband is super nice, everyone loves him...my ex-boyfriends are all super nice guys...I was never into the idiots, yes I married one, but not because I loved him...sigh...

I will say though, that now that I am married to one, he has an ex-wife from hell and I wish I had married an ahole instead...because she knows he's nice and he's too nice to call her the names I want to call her...argh!

You mean 'nice guy' as in a mouse who tries so hard to please others he has no self respect? No.

But neither do I want a wannabe alpha male who will try and control me, talk over me, push my head down while sucking him without asking, etc.

I want someone who has respect for both himself and others. Got that?

its been my observation that kindness is fostered by personal strife. Its hard to be a nice person if life is too easy, and it's hard to be confident when life is hard. Since women are attracted to confidence, it doesn't surprise me that it seams like the don't like nice guys.

This is a two year old post but I'll reply to it anyway.


well if a woman actually likes me that much, she would definitely have a poor judgment, so that would be actually convenient for me.


From what I gather, some women who like as*holes are as*holes themselves, however I also have noticed women being too nice (or perhaps naive would be the term) that they don't see it or disagree that their boyfriends are as*holes and may justify their behaviour. In any case, the as*holes seem to get it better, but that often could be because they can be better at deceiving and the 'nice' guys may be too honest or bad liars.

Yep, this may sound a bit pessimist, although I consider myself pessimism, but having skills to deceive people seems a great factor in success with women, as well as the confidence, as that is a social skill, so I tend to think that honesty, too much honesty, as well as modesty doesn't seem to do it that much. I have observed that people often pretend to be something they are not to impress the opossite sex.