To the men: What us women face.

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You reveal who you are as you get to know the person. Even though everyone has a few bad traits, many people who don't know you wouldn't want to accept those traits, however if they know you on a more intimate level those flaws will seem much smaller because those flaws don't define who you are.

It's tough for guys like me who are open and honest about stuff. That's just the way it is though. If I met a woman that I could be upfront with from the very beginning that would be great.

i guess that makes sense, but it depends on what traits / flaws you're talking about. if it's something major and inherent to your character (i.e. aspie traits) then i think it's best to be upfront. the point i was trying to make was just that no one benefits from putting on an act, whether that means not calling a girl right away because someone gives you the advice to act disinterested, or trying to be what someone else wants you to be.

if someone really likes you, they will like your flaws as well: that's what makes you human, and they have their own too.

excerpts from this post that make the point i was trying to make, but more clearly:


something that works will work because of who you really are, not in spite of it.

The problem is, by that analogy, I'm probably around dog food grade... There isn't much that's desirable about me. I'm a computer nerd that spends much of his free time in a church or playing video games. So the "real me" isn't going to attract anyone. So what do I do then?

PS: good to have you back... we need another voice of reason in this place...

Actually, in this day and age, it's not so unacceptable for women to approach men.

There's even women who propose to men these days instead of the other way around, if that doesn't say how much things are beginning to level out, i don't what does

& doesn't that make you a bit of a hypocrite, complaining about guys saying that all girls want such-and-such type man and then turning around and complaining that such-and-such guys only like such-and-such women?

you say your approaching guys is socially unacceptable, but i think that's just an excuse.
Guys don't have that excuse, but hey, we make excuses for ourselves sometimes too.
The truth is a person can be afraid to approach the opposite sex, no matter which gender they themselves are, if they're afraid of rejection.
& besides, that the definition of what is socially acceptable has probably changed more in the last hundred years than probably any other point in history. We've got alot of leeway these days in that department.

I agree with you 100% on the first paragraph, but I never got the sense that the second part was generally the case among dudes on here. I mean, I know you're not referencing me specifically because I've never ranted about such a thing ever (much less on here), and reading what's posted in this forum I tend to feel like I'm geared toward a "higher standard" than many. But I might be wrong on that, I haven't been around too frequently of late.

As far as the third part is concerned, that is likely either a cop-out or a misconception on your part unless you're in some part of the world that I am totally ignorant about. I don't mean to be nasty in saying that, not in the least, but my experience has been quite the opposite. It's totally acceptable socially for a woman to approach a dude. It's not a 100% guarantee for you if you do, but that doesn't make it wrong. For the most part, the girls I've just hooked up with were ones that I approached, but the ones I've actually dated all initially approached me.

This is how I am too. I don't know how to 'play' a dating game, so if a guy was doing this with me I might just give up without ever knowing what was ever going on. Once I had a drunken guy friend ask if I ever knew he liked me and I said no, and he said "wow, I made it really obvious" I usually like to meet someone through a friend, we get to know each other in settings where we're with other friends thus not trying to impress each other, and we see if something happens.

as far as what's socially acceptable, i say who cares?

it depends what age you are though .. the older a guy is, the more likely he had gender stereotyped role models.

and so, some guys are simply turned off by any sort of aggressiveness in women. i don't need those kinds of guys, so i'm not going to dwell on it ...

Meh, "when you don't win the lottery, it's the lottery's loss, not yours"?
Sure, since you didn't own that million, it can be interpreted as not being lost, but it's an ambiguous situation.
It's not so universal.

Not that I have anything particular against "sour grapes" mentality, of course.

Hi there chronos. I have similar hair and sometimes wear that style in the photo, lol . Let me tell you my perspective because I wanted fashionable women looking at me. I didn't dress like this to begin with. Getting ready used to be a 15 minute thing for me and dressing fashionable just felt lame to me. But you have to view style as marketing yourself. The guy who markets himself in that style that you linked to is showing that he cares about his appearance. He most likely wants it appreciated and reciprocated. It takes a guy like me a good hour or two to get ready. My appearance looks as if I just jumped out of the shower, but trust me, I spend at least 30 minutes with product just on my hair alone. This doesn't include the time I spend each night looking at new styles online, maintaining my eyebrows and facial hair, keeping my clothes pressed and shoes clean -- after all of that work, I want to meet a lady who can appreciate it by showing it in her appearance because she too took the time to get ready and look good. My NT friends are the guys who told me of this stuff, because they do it too! Without changing anything except my style and keeping up my appearance, my success with those fashionable women has become much better. Now I'm just working on my social skills to keep the flow going well, lol

Actually, my appearance has improved significantly in the last few years. However, I suppose it's something about my mannerisms or way I hold myself because though I don't consider myself ugly, I just don't come across as particularly girly or feminine, even if I were to wear a dress.

I cannot be sassy in the least bit and no matter how pressed and fitted my clothes are when I put them on, they very quickly degenerate to frumpy and unkempt for reasons I can only theorize have to do with a combination of my physical build and my inability to move in any graceful manner.

*shrugs* I'm still in a slight disbelief about everyone claiming everyone else is so grounded in physical appearances and so uppity, I guess mainly because I'm really not. For some reason though, I can never express this without it being some kind of insult. I like your mind. It doesn't mean I don't like your body; I just liked your mind first.

Better yet, if it's not insulting, I'm lying. I don't know what to say, but I just have this vast neutral zone of appearances that anyone can fall into and receive a positive or negative evaluation from me based mostly on personality, once I know them. I've described the same feature of the same person as both enticingly beautiful and absolutely disgusting simply after changing opinion of that person. Her face didn't change at all, just my opinion.

It's confusing though. I can separate these things, and find someone sexually attractive in some ways without really liking that person on a personal level, but when I fall in love, it usually has so little to do with those aspects that it's kind of funny. I will admit that first impressions include appearances a bit more than later formulations though, which is why I prefer to date people I've known for a while, or at least become familiar with on some odd personal/intellectual levels. xP

For instance, I can tell you that most of my turn-ons are mental. Well, actually, the direct turn-ons are kind of physical, but really, I need to feel like I can relate with a girl before those come into play that much, and that depends on mental things. I want a girl who can match my intelligence, and my expertise in at least a couple areas, if not exceed these things. I love it when a girl is fascinated by math and science, as well as when she has strong creative/artistic impulses, and likes to write or draw.

But I digress.... (It was starting to sound like I was doing a bad, long-winded job of writing a personal ad, I fear. Or worse yet, writing a blog entry here in the middle of this thread. Maybe I should start one of those. It might stop me from going into this kind of silly rant.) I guess the point is that I think these opinions people seem to keep forming are just childish and shallow, and it irks me.

hmm.... i had so much to say but i remember so little of it. um... to the poster of this thread you are exactly the same as the guys that dont go up to girls. you're just mad at the people around you for not aproaching you. maybe some guys will be turned of by a girl aproaching them but some wont mind or find it brave. besides do you realy want a guy thats not open minded enough to alow a girl to come up to him.

to the guy that spends half a hour a day on his looks. good for you but you need to understand that spending so much time on you looks isnt for everyone. its something you need a feel for and something you need to like doing. personly i dont care if a girl wears makeup if she does it looks nice but it may seem fake or like she is someone to busy doing useless stuf. the girl i've had a relationship for 9 months with now doesnt waer makeup and i have long curly hair with more split points than hairs. but that works for us she like to mess my hair up i like to see her freckels.

to all its not about trying to conform to the ideal images of men and woman its about finding someone that you like matches your personality compliments you. there is no such thing as an ideal girl or guy. my ex girlfriend realy didnt know me there was only atraction in a quite primal form not just lust but no coherence between our thoughts. it was fun for a while but it didnt work out. me and my current girlfriend do think alike. think alike doenst mean having the same views on politict but being able to interpret eachothers thought strings. similair political views might help though.

about style. its not very important to but clothes that are facionable its important to buy clothes that match you personality. personaly i wear very wide clothes and usualy band shirts. big pants with big pockets and hoodies. and i wear soft leather vans with thick orange laces. this is because i like to be free in my clothes. i have the big pockets so i can take books and drink botles with me. i have band shirts because i like the bands. i have vans because they feel nice to my feet i have bright orange laces because i think it looks nice. people that see me might think wow that guy is wearing weird clothes id better stay away form but some might be intruged. also if you like to not stand out much or you like whats in fashion just buy whats in fasion. its your choise dont think you cant were certain kind of clothes because then noone wil like you. maybe most people wont like you but some will and that wil probably be people with similair intrests.

about aproaching random people on the street or in public transport. dont go for random people go for someone that already looks apealing. not as that girl must have d that looks apealing. more as in that person has a hiking bag i like hiking i might talk to him or her. or that persons reading a book i'd like to know more about or already do know more about or those shoes ive never seen before i'd like to meet someone so unique. etc etc. anyway when looking for a potential mate try to estimate their personalty not their wallet or bra size.

gues thats all wel probalby not but i'm done typing.

That's a catch 22 though, because if you had a male friend who then declared he had feelings for you and you wasn't interested, you'd then probably turn around and accuse him of only being friends with you because he was trying to seduce you.

Also expecting someone who's interested in you to only be friends, hoping that one day you may want something more, that's a bit unfair towards the guy isn't it?

By that argument it's a bit unfair towards the girl to expect her to make a decision without getting to know you first.

There's a difference between getting to know someone and knowing they have a crush on you and using it against them (that applys to both genders by the way)

how do you know what i'd "probably do"
that's just an assumption made based on your own bitterness and bias.



only if you think the guy has a right to expect you to sleep with him if he's friends long enough.
so, no, it's not.

and incidentally that's not why i would have a friend.