Please advise !possible aspie guy told me not to contact him

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I find this quite worrying - when would you consider manipulation to be necessary?

You are the one that dragged the whole "Childish games" into the discussion. I never said that dysfunctional behaviour was like that and frankly, that is accepted social behaviour in the NT world.



My guess is that you are probably dyslectic or reading things into what i wrote - like an NT person would. Good luck with your monologue.

Umm, I think the disability you're looking for is "dyslexia" - and no, I don't suffer from it. I'm also not a bigot, or someone who simply chooses to ignore the facts because they don't support my skewed vision of the world. I'll leave heavy burden to you. And really, good luck to you, cause you're gonna need it.

Whether or not those social games are 'dysfunctional behavior', his point was that Asperger's Syndrome provides a natural barrier to those sorts of behaviors. Manipulative devious social games depend on social cues, and to play that act as an Aspie is going to be a challenge at best by simple virtue of poor social skills.

It doesn't mean Aspies can't pull stunts like that. It just means that it's not going to be as likely. And, I'd have to agree with just about everything else that Ichinin wrote.

petitefille: I think the guy still likes you, but you really seem to be doing just about everything possible to destroy your chances with him. You can't continue to play social games like this, and hope he'll get it. You need to make some decisions, and be clear with him. If you're not, you're just going to mess with his head, and he'll end up despising you.

@Pandoran-March, honestly I don't know where you're getting your information, but it is absolutely incorrect. Dysfunctional behavior is an equal opportunity destroyer. Asperger's Syndrome absolutely does not provide any type of barrier, natural or otherwise, to it. Aspies do indeed play devious social games - and no, there is no absolute dependence on social cues required to play them. Aspies manipulate; Aspies lie; Aspies cheat - just like everybody else. To say that somehow an Aspie is less likely to engage in dysfunctional behavior is a damaging falsehood. Care to back that up with some type of empirical evidence? Cause I'd like to hear something more than conjecture. Frankly, your conjecture doesn't negate my experience.

Aspies are products of their environments, just like everybody else. The choice to lie, cheat, manipulate, and in any other way behave badly is related to an individual's character and psychological health. Neural status doesn't determine how manipulative, honest, decent, loving or loyal a person is going to be. Can an Aspie be honest, decent, loyal, loving? You bet. Can an Aspie be dishonest, disloyal, indecent, angry and hateful? You bet. To posit that neural status is a determining factor in one's character is absolutely untrue, and does more harm than good. Can you even imagine making a statement that all NTs are honest, decent, loyal and loving? Of course not, because we can all point to examples of NTs that don't fit that description. Yet somehow its completely acceptable to hold out an example of bad behavior and not only state that its an example of the way all NTs behave, but to become insulting and insolent when the validity of that premise is challenged. Yes, some NTs behave badly, but to generalize that behavior to 99% of the world's population is inaccurate, ignorant, and to be blunt - spreads hate. And I think that sucks.

That is not to say impossible, but definitely less likely.
http://www.yourlittleprofessor.com/benefits.html
http://www.aspergermanagement.com/honesty-integrity

Perhaps Dr. Teresa Bolick, Dr. Tony Attwood, and Dierdre Lovecky would care to peruse this forum? Their study of the Aspie experiences recounted in this forum could actually advance the study of Asperger's. That is, if they're interested in reading about the real-life experiences of Aspies that completely contradict their theories.

This forum is loaded with first-hand accounts of manipulation, lying, cruelty, etc. perpetrated by Aspies. Believe me, I probably have read a fraction of the threads in the L&D forum alone, but I've still found a ton of examples of this behavior. One recent thread was posted by an Aspie who fronted NT behavior long enough to get a gf, knock her up, have a child with her - but now can't stand the pressure of fronting any longer and doesn't understand why she won't accept him for who he "truly" is. That is an example of world class lying and manipulation - worthy of any NT. There's a kid here (seemingly a pretty nice kid) who's involved with a hot bipolar young lady. He knows he can't handle the stress of dealing with her on a long-term basis, but she's the hottest piece of a$$ he's ever been with - so he's content to continue sleeping with her while he looks for another girl. He believes they're actually using each other, and maybe they are. But allowing an emotional investment to grow when you know you want out of the relationship isn't exactly honest or sincere, is it?

Those are two threads off the top of my head. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds like them in this forum alone. I have had real-life experience with Aspies that also completely contradicts the good doctors' theories. There is absolutely nothing about having Asperger's that somehow immunizes a person against the impact of their environment. If you're raised by people who lie and cheat, you're going to believe that lying and cheating is normal behavior. If you're raised by people who abuse, you will accept abusive behavior as normal, and you will likely either become an abuser, or choose an abusive partner. Aspies suffer the same type of damage, the same type of pain, the same type emotional difficulties as any NT that is subjected to an abusive environment. There may be differences in how that damage and pain is processed, but the consequences are just as devastating.

To claim that Aspies are "sincere truth tellers" is outrageous. I'm sure many Aspies are sincere truth tellers, and their Aspieness might tend to make them more vocal. But being honest is not a consequence of having Asperger's - its a consequence of the values instilled by parents. And "incapable of backstabbing?" Give me a f*cking break. Again, take a look at this forum - for that matter, take a look at this thread. All I had to do was mention that the OP described herself as an undiagnosed Aspie and not an NT, and the NT bashing began: "So, excuse me but she sounds VERY neurotypical, she plays these social games with the guy (a very neurotypical trait) and wonders why he reacts differently from the normal guys that insist on praising girls to high heavens, even if they treat the guys like crap." I'm sorry, but taking quotes out of context, putting words into another person's mouth, ignoring the substance of a post because it doesn't support your skewed perspective are all pretty good examples of backstabbing behavior to me. And free from sexism? Have you read some of the misogynistic posts on this forum? They're dreadful - and sexist.

I'm sorry, but perpetuating the myth that all Aspies possess these fine qualities does so much more harm than good. There are many, many fine Aspies and NTs of good character in this world. There are many, many Aspies and NTs who have the potential to be fine people of good character - provided they're given the proper support to heal the damage from their past and relearn how to live life and make decisions as a person of good character. But character is learned - its not a birthright, and therefore not a product of neural status.

Last edited by HopeGrows on 08 Jun 2010, 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My AS ex had a complete inability to lie. He could only speak the truth. But the reality is that he didn't know when he was lying to himself AND he was unable to fully comprehend the context of a situation. Thus he was, de facto, constantly lying and telling mistruths and partial truths. But he was totally unable to see this. So he does believe that he is the most honest person alive. So strong is this belief that any attempt to show him evidence of the contrary is automatically rejected, because his primary assumption about himself and the world is that "He cannot lie."

HopeGrows, I provided evidence from two doctors and two renown authors, and provided a caveat for you. Your personal history may be different, but overall, the vast majority of people on the spectrum do not play those games.

Last edited by Mudboy on 08 Jun 2010, 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

agreed! I've actually been stunned at some of the situations I've read in Love&Dating and the Haven. The latter is arguably even more annoying because if you point out to someone that their behaviour is 100% manipulative and out of line, then you get this wail of "but it's the HAa-ven...." /rant

@Mudboy, what you haven't provided is any type of statistical data to support the assertions of these doctors, or your assertion that the "vast majority" of people on the spectrum do not "play these games." I'm not basing my conclusions solely on my own experience - look at this forum. Are the people who post here somehow not representative of people on the spectrum? Only people at the ends of the bell curve post here? HA! The doctors you've quoted might want to look at Wrong Planet if they want to get a real world perspective of what life is like for an Aspie - one that is not scrubbed and polished for a clinical interview or survey.

i think ppl on the spectrum would have a "one-way" deficit for this type of manipulation (as in they might perceive some percentage of it as being genuine from the other person) but that does not prevent them or make them any less likely to employ the same tactics, though it might affect the effectiveness of their own tactics (due to social cue ineptitude).

to shorten it up... i think both ppl are right about this.

to consider the "experts"... i would say that all things being equal, they're probably less prone to employ these tactics but once they realize the mechanics of this type of behavior (most likely due to the realization of having fallen victim to it in the past or current interaction) it gives a rational/logical reason to justify reciprocating the behavior.

but i think for anyone to use these tactics, they are not trying to interact in earnest and there is definitely some degree of jadedness fueling the behavior. along these lines, i think generally, ppl on the spectrum wouldn't carry it over from situation to situation... but it all depends on how hurt the person was due to their past experiences with this type of interaction (for ppl NT or otherwise). In such a case, i think it would be very easy for someone on the spectrum to react to this kind of harsh treatment by universally applying it to all future interactions of the sort.

again, i think it's a fine point argument for either side and both are probably partially right and wrong.

For the OP, if she doesn't have feelings for the guy, she should just ignore it and let it be... But if she has any interest, she should take care of settling (ending) her own relationship and directly try to settle this cause she has admitted to resorting to manipulation and should try to directly communicate her feelings either way with the guy... at least restore some sort of friendship.

Thanks @Lene and @Sophq. I understand that people with credentials have published information to try to define Aspies and Aspie behavior - but real life experience doesn't seem to support their theories.

I have no intent to Aspie bash, either. Absolutely the opposite. Aspies are just as complex as NTs - maybe more so, given the nature of the disability. While there are aspects of the disability that can be quantified, those aspects are only one part of an Aspie's persona. The way a person is socialized, the type of support they receive, the age of diagnosis/awareness of ASD, their willingness to deal with the disability as well as non-ASD deficits. etc. - that's all part of their persona, too.

Frankly, I think its a disability that is incredibly complex, that has only begun to be studied. I accept that hypotheses, theories, studies, etc. are an attempt to make sense and order out of what is misunderstood and chaotic. But they are a place to begin. It certainly wasn't so long ago that homosexuality was classified as a psychological disorder - and the people classifying it as such were medical doctors. What a difference 50 or 60 years worth of knowledge makes, huh? I wonder what we'll learn about Asperger's in the next 50 or 60 years?

@Sedaka, I appreciate your post and perspective. I believe that there is some basis for the conclusions of these doctors. However, based on what I've seen here, it seems likely to me that there data sample used simply wasn't big enough, or that there are data points within the samples studied that have skewed their research. You're a scientist - heck, you're a neuroscientist. The conclusions drawn by these doctors - who I I believe published their theories in good faith - are not well supported by the anecdotal evidence memorialized in this forum. There's got to be a reason for that, and the simplest explanation I can think of is that there simply were not enough people studied to draw completely accurate conclusions.

What concerns me is that their findings are accepted as gospel - chapter and verse. And I think that's harmful to Aspies and their partners.

"Manipulative devious social games depend on social cues, and to play that act as an Aspie is going to be a challenge at best by simple virtue of poor social skills."

Not exactly. Successful manipulation depends on good social skills. A person with poor social skills could also attempt to lie, manipulate, or deceive, it's just that others would see through it, so the pretense probably wouldn't last very long. Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean the person is naturally honest.

I have yet to encounter anyone with AS, here or IRL, who doesn't value honesty and try to live up to it, even when it gets them in trouble. I don't think they always succeed, if the threads I see on this forum sometimes are any indication. Hope gave some wonderful examples, which I'm not going to rehash.

Psychologists deal in generalizations about whole populations. You can't apply what they say to individuals very accurately. When psychologists talk about what "people with AS" are like, they're doing the same thing as when they talk about what "women" or "men" are like. If a psychologist says that women have better verbal skills, he means that the average score for women is higher than the average score for men, but you can still find plenty of men who score higher than the average woman. Similarly, people with AS may on average be more honest than NTs, but you'll find plenty of dishonest people with AS, too. This principle is true even for well-designed studies with large sample sizes, BTW. It's just the nature of statistical generalizations with groups, whether there are 2 participants or thousands.

I'm a big fan of both Tony Attwood and Dierdre Lovecky, but these sorts of group-to-individual generalizations just don't work.

"There are many, many fine Aspies and NTs of good character in this world. ... But character is learned - its not a birthright, and therefore not a product of neural status."
This. ^+1.

Let's slap another label down.

One which some of you must be familiar with the symptoms of.

http://love-shy.com/

How do these symptoms fit with anxiety, ASD, mood disorders etc etc.?