DataSage’s Alpha Male Guide to Meeting Women (JULY UPDATE!!)

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david bowie says in quicksand:

Don't believe in yourself
Don't deceive with belief
Knowledge comes
with death's release

-----------------------------

i think some ladyfolk prefer guys with a bit more wisdom and a bit less personal egotism...owning rooms, dominating situations n such doesnt impress everyone...just girls with lowself esteem themselves...someone to hide behind

im sure also not every woman is interesting in having ooga ooga caveman dominator kids....tis as important to be able to operate a PC these days as it is to club someone... so what if ppl make eye contact or not? or smile in the right way..sheesh life is more than a freakin sitcom...i encourage everyone to grow depth and look beyond the surface...

someone told me in the future at some point there will be NT sites where NT males make threads to try and act more aspie to get women...cos we're the in thing:

...."ok so when i approach a girl...i act humble and avoid too much eyecontact...im trying to understand her as a person rather than immediately dominate her physically..right....and i hafta know something in depth and have something decent to say instead of repeating one liners ad finitum? man ok...woo this is hard on the ole brain and worse for my ego...can't i just dominate someone quick like and beat my chest a little? no. ok."

I'm in my early twenties and fresh out of college; being myself certainly didn't attract many women (except a few conservative Christian types who definitely aren't my type). If you go on your instincts, or what feels right, you'll find yourself facing rejection after rejection. I have talked to many different types of women of varying levels of attractiveness, and merely making friendly conversation with them won't "turn" them "on" or arouse romantic interest. I have attracted some women's attention by following certain methods although I have yet to get a date.

At least in their late teens and early twenties, most women are very insecure, and their attraction to a guy is premised on alleviating these self-doubts more than anything (the exceptions are few). Your best chance of succeeding is to know what these securities are and use them to increase her attraction to you.

Women, moreso than men, have an innate desire to feel socially accepted and liked. Their choice of mate reflects this. They want a guy who their friends will like too and who conveys social dominance. Part of this is appearing too busy for them. They like attention, but this should be made a reward they have to earn or a special treat. When they can't see you or talk to you, they will assume you're busy doing important stuff, so they will value the time you choose to spend with them more. This may mean calculating exactly when to call or message them for maximum effect instead of relying on your instincts (which will probably lead you to call too soon). Being socially dominant also means being friendly and courteous in public and being comfortable in a variety of social settings while asserting yourself as needed.

Many women are working on all kinds of emotional issues in early adulthood, and so they are attracted to a guy who doesn't seem to have emotional problems. He must be very cool and under control. This means never showing any signs of emotional instability (depression, chronic high anxiety, mood swings). If a guy is as emotionally all over the place as she is, she will not feel secure in him. A little bit of controlled anger or jealousy can be acceptable if it shows assertiveness or defense of your "lady"; uncontrolled anger or jealousy (or frequent mood swings) will definitely scare a woman off.

Trust is an important issue. Many women have had to deal with jerks or outright abusive guys, and so they're hesitant to open up. This may mean you'll be expected to read their mind since they refuse to communicate openly. You'll have to just know when to give them their space and when to try to comfort them actively. Chances are, though, you'll eventually get it wrong, and they will think you're too "pushy."

If you have noticeable flaws in your appearance like acne or bad teeth, this will immediately throw out the majority of women, and no amount of self-confidence, dressing decently, or talking will persuade them. I asked a woman out at work once after she had been dropping more than a few hints, and she agreed, but after she saw my bad teeth when I smiled, she gave me a wrong number.

Money can compensate for looks somewhat. If you know what you want to do with your life and have a good job, this will attract women who don't know what they want to do with their life and who have no prospects. Chances are, if they're only interested after hearing about how much money you make, they're gold-diggers and will probably cheat on you with guys they consider more attractive. You can, of course, still have sex with them without any intention of having a relationship with them or giving them any money; that's a matter of ethics, though.

If you're fairly intelligent and have obscure interests (as many aspies do), you'll probably find few women share your interests or appreciate your outlook and way of thinking. You might have to pay lip service to common interests like sports, TV shows, or bands if only to get laid.

I agree these tactics are less than ideal, but if you have a high sex drive and can't wait forever to meet just the right woman who accepts you as you are, you'll have to make some compromise on your personality to fulfill your sex drive (although the quality of the relationship will probably be very lacking). Also, all these tactics are as much work as they sound; dating is a second job, basically. I too used to think dating was supposed to be something enjoyable until I realized that it required constant acting.

I don't know what makes you think they aren't. My observation has been that, yes, they're making the moves and that, if you can't compete for whatever reason (in the woman's eyes), she can easily find someone else.

Statistically, women may slightly outnumber men, at least in most Western countries, but this does not mean men are at a competitive advantage. Most men are, because of the hormones, interested in sex first and a relationship second; for women the inverse is true. One act of coitus is much less commitment than a long-term relationship, so women tend to be much pickier in the dating world than men. Let's say 70% of women consider only 30% of men dateable; they rather not have so much as a word with the other 70% of men. Among the 30% of men most women consider dateable, yes, they will compete fiercely with each other for the men they want most.

This dilemma is what makes prostitution and even rape the only viable options for some men. They just can't fulfill their sex drives without paying for it or forcing a woman into it because no woman will actually date them no matter what they do.

They should try taking my anti-depressents, it doen't cure my loneliness but it killls my sex drive.

an autistic male can never be an alpha male they are opposite in all means .....you will realise that soon or later.....

Neanthumain if you've got bad teeth, why not get them fixed so women won't be put off.?

I can tell you it's true that very few women are attracted by bad teeth, particularly if they are black and the breath is putrid too. Women don't tend to worry so much if a man's teeth are a little bit crooked but rotten teeth are really yukkie.

Women, especially young women, like to feel that they are cared for and needed but please don't pretend if you don't really feel that way about them. They will only feel betrayed and spread the word that you are untrustworthy or in less polite terms, an assh@@e.

WOAH! So much hostility in here, but that's to be expected. People don't like deviations from the norm, and I know I'm right about all this stuff because these are basics that 100% of the charisma/seduction community talk about on a daily basis.

As for women in this thread, I'm not going to debate them. Consciously, a lot of females will read stuff like this then go off on a tirade about how they want a "nice, caring guy." If that were true, I would've found the love of my life by now. If you guys want to believe that stuff, fine, but don't get depressed when a girl cans you for being over the top dramatic and clingy.

Allow me to rephrase: guys aren't making the RIGHT moves. If they were, this thread would not exist.



Yeah, but not every woman has the same 70/30. That said, it's impossible to not find anyone who wouldn't find you dateable. It's just statistically impossible.



Umm, no. If you're going to come in here and say things like this, maybe you should explain yourself in a counterpoint fashion in relation to my own writings on the subject.



We're not here to make them feel needed, we're here for companionship. If a woman just wants to be with me so that I give her attention, that's just as bad as me acting like I enjoy giving her attention. I'd boot a girl like that out of my life faster than you could ask "why?"

Being alpha isn't about marching into a room pounding on your chest, ripping testicles off the other males or roaring the loudest.
What attracts women is the aura that the alpha male creates, the leadership. You can be friendly AND alpha at the same time. This is what women desire. Alpha-ness is just the sum of confidence, control of the situation and leadership. If you can lead a group(preferably the group you're going out with) you will outshine not only confidence, but you will qualify yourself as the leader, hence exhibiting the leadership part. Confidence is all about outshining that you're happy with yourself. One example is posture and walk. Head raised, shoulders relaxed, smooth movements etc... Its also about the way you speak, and not always WHAT you say but HOW you say it. You won't believe what you can get away with saying as long as you say it with confidence and the right tone of voice. This is hard for Aspies as we tend to ave a monotonous voice. I have worked around this. I was able to overcome the monotonous speech and God does it yield results!

The alpha-male term is wrongly associated with the literal meaning of "bad boy". The modern alpha male can be compared to a person running a company. You take the lead and people follow. It is impossible not to be impressed by business leaders(Donald Trump anyone? Girls love him although he is hideous in appearance).

I think we need to redefine the term "Alpha-Male" as most of you seem to have a VERY VERY WRONG association to it.

Jonathan: I appreciate the effort you spent trying to help us and everything, but the fundamental challenges remain the same. Most of the advice you posted would only be useful if we could actually muster the courage to do the things you've done. Unfortunately, most of it isn't feasible. (IE, starting a conversation with some random at a bowling alley.) That's not a realistic scenario for someone like me. I'd love to think it were but it's not.

Perhaps I, at 23 years of age, lack the experience and desperation needed to make that all-intrusive leap. Maybe one day I'll look back on my cowardice and smile, but how much time must elapse before desperation kicks in? I feel desperate, yet, I cannot direct my energy into a neurotypical because most of them demand and expect conventional conformity; something I and many others cannot provide.

-Fitness Kicker

First off, I just want to quash some of the "aspies can't be social" nonsense that's being posted in response to this guide. Aspies can be social, we aren't all hopeless basket cases. I like to say that anyone who wants social skills is halfway there. Honestly, I socialize like an NT, even though I have AS. Many aspies on these boards appear to be "social", so don't be pessimistic.

Honestly, I think this guide is very well prepared. It is written by an aspy, for aspies, and about the things we have most trouble with. I applaud this effort. Being social isn't about being born into some elite class, or being able to decode messages, most of it simply portraying an upbeat, image to other people.

The title "alpha-male" may be misleading for some. Think of this as more of a gide to being a "social leader". Replace alpha-male with "social leader" in each case, and you'll have he same (albeit, somewhat more awkward) message. Being an alpha-male is all about confidence. It's like revenent said, you don't have to go around beating your chest, just smiling like you know what you're doing. You don't really have too know what you're dong, but present the right image and you really don't have to.

A lot of the criticism I see here however, is typical of our condition: not knowing when to take things literally or figuratively. And I think that's the next guide that needs to be written. *hint* *hint*

Also, if you write you're own guide (as some posters have done), please make sure that you have some experience (have dated women) and are not basing your guide on "theory". Much of what you think you know changes as you begin to date, and you may find at a later point that you have written something misleading.

So anyway, great job Datasage! I'm sure this will help a lot of people!

Aspies can be social, but let's be realistic here. The social stigma you'd like to quash just happens to be the most crucial symptom at the very core of A.S! So while I can appreciate your positive spin on the situation, our problems remain the same.

The whole point of this thread is to help people with A.S. find a date. Unfortunately, the thread starter miscalculated our problems entirely. I've had 3 girlfriends in my life. That's not alot, but guess what? I'm a perfect 3 for 3 baby! And I'm willing to bet a substancial portion are similar with respect to my batting average, whether it'd be 5/5 or 0/0.

See, it takes more than simple self-coaching to put forth an attractive vibe. Jonathan's advice (although sincere) is common knowledge. We understand the importance of being assertive/confident etc. That's not the issue. The issue is self-love. We have to accept every facet of our being including our downfalls. My primary downfall is money. For others, it may be a crooked tooth, their weight, or some other hindrance. Aspies worry too much, and this is why (I think) most of us are single.

^^ exactly that s why i said autistic males can't be alpha males .

alpha males are very NT in nature.

is like you are telling someone on wheel chair to be a soccer champion ...

There is the special olympics for the people in wheelchairs :)

ok let 's replace football with dancing ....

Ugh, I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot on this board, but whatever.

First off, this has nothing to do with experience, much less desperation. You're acting as if you need something to build up to this point. You don't. All you need to do is make a decision, and quite honestly, it's not a hard one (the decision to just take a chance).

That said, the idea that "most" NTs demand some sort of conformity is a stereotype. The real thing you want to avoid here is not interacting with NTs, but interacting with the WRONG NTs. That's why we talk to them first, hence the purpose and existence of this guide.



So? This is not relevant to the guide. The purpose is to allow you to have more choice and really diversify your love prospects, the same way most females do. Just because an aspie gets into a relationship, with 3, or 4 different girls, has no bearing on the quality of those relationships. It's like teaching someone how to pick apples--just because the person picked 3 apples off the tree doesn't mean he couldn't find better ones in the orchard.



Yes and no. A lot of guy's can have good self esteem and still mess up when it comes to just talking to women in general. That's why confidence is key, but it's not the only ingredient. Society would rather have you believe that being good looking and being confident gets you as many women as want. Too bad they're only telling 1/3 of the truth.

I'm joining just so I can make this one post. I might stick around but for some reason thinking about my aspergers and the subculture around it makes me more negative which is counter to getting women.

What DataSage said is 100% true. I've noticed that when someone posts this basic information a lot of people end up reacting against it. However, if you actually do the research for yourself, you quickly find out that the same motifs are in almost every book you read. There is a lot of information, especially theory related, that DataSage left out which might be why a lot of you aren't understanding this. I knew what he's saying but that's just because I've probably read many of the same books he has. But I was thinking that if I had none of this prior knowledge, I might not have followed it as well.

That's not to say that I could do it any better though. I envy his succes. Most NTs who take this same information usually start seeing success within three months ( http://www.sosuave.net/forum ). I've been trying to "get women" for almost a year and I still have very limited success. It's encouraging to know that it's possible because DataSaga, at least, has had some success. The success isn't only with women though. This helps aspies in more then one way. If you watch David DeAngelo's seminars, there's actually a guy that asks this question, "So a lot of this stuff is tips about life and not specifically women" to which the answer was yes.

One of the motifs is that women are attracted to successful men, aka, the alpha male. So being successful in life also makes you more successful with women. In Secrets of the Alpha male, pg 13, the correlation is clear: " Haven’t you always wondered what it was that certain men – GREAT men – had that made them so successful in life, how they managed to rise to the top of the heap?
You’ve probably even heard and understood that the men who get the most out of life – the most women, the most money, the most success, better jobs, the most sex and satisfaction overall – those men were of a slightly different breed than, say, the clerk at the 7-11 or the Circle-K. They have a certain dominance about them. Yes, they are assertive, but it’s much more than that. They have some innate character quality
that allows them to be more confident, persistent, and generally get whatever they go
after.
It’s called Alpha Male behavior in scientific terminology. We’ll call it Alpha Man behavior for the work we’re about to do....

Getting laid was really an offshoot of a confident and aggressive male pattern of behavior that meant success in ALL areas of my life. If you succeed with women, you have the seeds of greatness for success with your career, your family, your friends, your hobbies."

For some reason I agree with this. Being the guy that gets all the p**** and attention from girls may be next to impossible for most aspies. However, the basic information that can get someone there can also move an aspie who has no girlfriend to at least seeing some success in dating. I just dont see how it's possible to "transform" yourself into a charismatic, outgoing, friendly jock. But if you reach for the stars, you might land on the moon.Actually I think NeantHumain might be partially correct here. Yes, there area always more fish in the sea. But in The Selfish Gene, there's a chapter about competing strategies between men/women. One of the premises is that women have choices and most men dont. The reason for this is that, in any population, only a few of the males actually reproduce. This is because all the females want to mate with these few males. The intention is that her 50% DNA will be with this guys successful DNA so her;s is more likely to survive another generation. The rest of the males dont get any action but this essentially leaves them available to any female who happened to want to have sex with them.

I've heard women say that "good men are hard to find" and "there aren't many good men around these days." This is part of the same underlying theme: there are few guys who either consciously or subconsciously display the characteristics of an alpha male. From the same book, although this motif is common in many other books, "Men, more than ever, have lost their way. They’ve fallen prey to a popular media that tells women they can have it all, be liberated, and they think that this is now their birthright and entitlement. Women are acting more like men, and it’s only because most men don’t act like men, so someone has to."

This refers to the "majority of men" that you want to be "the exact opposite of."

David DeAngelo argues that women can subconsciously "sniff out" the characteristics of an alpha male to help ensure her DNA's survival. Attraction is not a choice. As several people have pointed out, you cannot trust a woman's opinion about this kind of stuff. On the surface, a woman may say she likes nice guys, but we all know that this isn't true.

There is a lot of really good information out there. I can suggest a couple books that you can get w/ p2p,
Double Your dating (also check out his other material)
Swinggcat's Real World Seduction
Alpha Male
Thundercat's The Art of Approaching
sosuave.net
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/index.html

I think personally my problem is always being too inwardly focused. You have to be "in the here and now," and most importantly, happy. You have to try to be in a good mood, say hi to everyone, and be friendly ... active, engaging, and most importantly, positive! Try to not be as systematic about things -- lighten up and take things less seriously. (this is what I mean by the beginning of my post)