Aspie Overthinking = Forever Alone

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You iz a profound soul. Despite starting so many arguments recently

It's just so easy looking outward when the solutions are actually inside. How can you actually know anyone else properly unless you know yourself?

Wouldn't getting to know someone help in honing your skills in learning what you do and do not like? By that logic, if we don't know ourselves fully, there is absolutely no chance of a possible relationship.

It can be easier to understand other people since you have far less bias. *shrug* On a general level, sometimes your friends know you better than you know yourself.
I've known myself for 25 years. Yet, im not shocked anymore when people tell me things about myself i never considered *shrug*.

And people's opinions are different if they're flustered. That's usually their true opinion. Not that starting an argument is desirable, but it has upsides.

Hmm, yeah, there's that - kinda. But I'm talking about quality relationships, rather than any hook up at all, or even an 'average' relationship (ie fighting virtually every night and actually growing to hate each other).

What I am saying is - the relationship isn't the solution. And it can't be.

The quality of the relationship comes from what's inside two people. And then it takes its own character, too - so you have actually three elements in the relationship.

The more we know ourselves, the more we know other people. And that way, we can actually choose a better partner, and have that better relationship. If you decide to work on yourself while in a relationship, that will affect the relationship, and the other person. It will probably kill it (but not always).

Doesn't it make sense to learn how to swim before you jump in at the deep end, without any floats or aids?



It's kind of like

The solution to being good at relationships is thinking... well, perhaps not on this board. Its a small sample size, but i think experience would help. It sounds bad using a relationship as experience, but you grow far faster in one than out of one. Everyone starts somewhere. Just inform your partner you have no ideas what you're doing. My last GF took great delight in being with someone who she could 'train'. It was amusing.

That's because people don't tend to bother unless they have to bother. In other words, when they're with someone. You grow faster out of a relationship - especially immediately after one has finished, if you can be honest with yourself and any hurt has ended.

[\quote] Everyone starts somewhere. Just inform your partner you have no ideas what you're doing. My last GF took great delight in being with someone who she could 'train'. It was amusing. [/quote]

So now we know who to blame...

You clearly had the right person for that. I certainly wouldn't generally recommend anyone saying "oh look, I am a blank canvas, paint me whatever way you like". Suppose it depends how, and in what ways. It's just better having a clue to start with, and that starts inside, surely?

Personally, I'm greatly inexperienced in the relationship department, The repeated rejections in the past has driven me to a point of over-thinking due to the amount of possible reasons for them being uninterested. I feel like a good portion of the "getting to know yourself" idea is derived from having to adjust yourself to the standards of others. It feels tedious and trivial to be honest.

The concept of "overthinking" is invalid. Thinking is great. No, it's vital. It's how one discovers and navigates the world. It's when one thinks incorrectly that it becomes bad.

What we're confusing here is thinking, values, emotions, and virtues. Let's correctly understand what these things are, lest we continue to sabotage ourselves.

Thinking = Data processing.
Values = Attainable goals that fulfill our needs, and adopted through conviction (thinking).
Emotions = Automatic feelings directed by values.
Virtues = Automatic actions directed by values/goals and habit, with the intent of fulfilling the value/goal.

Flowchart of how this works:

Thinking --> Values --> Emotions and virtues

So thinking correctly (logic) is of utmost importance because it's foundational for all knowledge, emotions, and virtues.

It's up to us to use logic to discover good values (values are not intrinsic--they are relational to the individual).

Emotions are fantastic because they allow us to enjoy life while also telling us if something is threatening our values/goals. However, if you have bad values/goals, you will have bad emotions. If you have bad thinking (logic), then you'll have bad values and emotions.

Virtues are important because in times when you don't have time to think, you have a default action to fall back on. For example, when someone greets you, most of us have the virtue of greeting them back. We don't need to think about it. For love and dating, we need to also develop virtues. Virtues frees up brain processing for other mentally taxing tasks.

So everything starts with thinking. To sever the relationship between thinking and emotions is disastrous. We see a lot of this mentality even with NTs. Reject thinking, and you are behaving irrationally, and are at the whim of luck. In other words, you are no longer in control of yourself.

Last edited by Ctrl_F4 on 30 Sep 2013, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If you can't think she's out there somewhere, she probably isn't born yet.

Such as? I wasn't aware that one could autopilot their way though this.

I feel like this is going to get me verbally reamed. >_>

No verbal reaming necessary when the inquiries are sincere.

With relationships (regardless if your goal is to be a friend, lover, or provider), common interests do help build a connection. However, simply understanding the person's values (e.g. motivations, dreams, ambitions, passions) will also help build a connection. That's why you can have what appears to be two very different people feel connected. To get people to open up, they need to feel comfortable around you and feel that you're not judgmental.


Your emotions against rejection and despair are justified because you feel a potential loss of value (e.g. companionship, love, etc.). You are thus faced with a decision--do you choose to continue to pursue this value or do you back down? The former requires risk while the latter will leaves you disappointed/frustrated for not fulfilling your value. It's an emotionally difficult decision because it challenges your values. Taking the risk to pursue this value is the only way to grow and develop character. It's difficult, but try not to take failure/mistakes too personally. Look at it as a data point for your social calibration. With each mistake, you learn from (given the right thinking for honest, objective introspection). When you look at it this way, it's a win-win situation in the long-term. The wise person thinks both short-term and long-term. That is essentially what "planning" is.


I've come a long way in the "dating game." When women ask me what I do for a living, I have an autopilot response that is not boring and cookie cutter. I get asked that question so many times now that I usually know what to say depending on the context that makes her more intrigued. For example, I don't say I'm a business analyst. I may sometimes say I'm a philosopher but I also make people dance. This piques her interest and prompts her to ask more. You're not trying to impress anyone (trying to impress people kills attraction) when you're being asked about it. That's a more complex example. A simpler one would be if she gives you eye contact, then you can develop an autopilot response to maintain eye contact and return a sly smile. These are examples in the realm of dating. It applies to all facets of life, from how you respond to your morning alarm clock to how you respond to your teacher asking for volunteers.

I'm a totally different person 10 years ago. That's because I've developed a lot of autopilot social responses. That is how I am usually able to blend in with neurotypicals these days. You can't really fake this stuff because NTs pick up on the subtlest of body language and tonality ticks. Autopilot is what makes you appear natural. I made the decision 10 years ago to direct my aspie obsession on social skills, hence how I was able to learn so much in such a relatively short amount of time. I still have a lot to learn, but I would say that in many social situations, I am better than the average NT. In some social situations, I am still a little awkward though.

Cool. Sometimes I come off as whiny and that's something I'd like to avoid.







So, I have to show an esteemed interest and learn to understand another's values? At the risk of sounding stupid, how and when would one go about getting that involved? I'm not exactly good at asking questions...without sounding like an interrogator.



I'm an emotional stonewall. Rejection and feelings of despair are things I'd rather not deal with. My brain pretty much feels like it's going to rip in two when I'm shot down. I've pretty much resigned myself to not committing to any emotional investment. I wouldn't say I have bad goals and values; I'm not looking for much, just companionship, nerdy romance and someone to snuggle up with.[/quote]



So I have to look at this objectively and weigh out the pros and cons?



My social skills are better than one would expect due to being a server. Outside of work, I very rarely engage in conversation with a random person. There has to be a reason for me to talk to them (outside of a preliminary interest in them) or it's just a pointless endeavor. I've noticed that I have it easier with people that are significantly older than me because I don't expect them to be into the things I'm into. Makes me less inclined to nerd out.

Thanks for breaking this down. I know you're not a therapist, so I won't bog you down with my catalog of neuroses.

Learning autopilot is a blending mechanism, i wouldn't be so quick to apply it to a relationship, although im rather suspicious NT's autopilot even more than an autopilot aspie.

I do the same thing, and my years in customer service have made me decent at inane chitchat, but i'd like to point out, that's similar to relationship experience, lolz.

I just want to bash the flowchart. I believe the FIRST thing should be emotions > thinking. Going thinking > emotions is just a translation device for the aspie impaired NT's. It works for communication. And although communication is vital within a relationship, i'd like to re-champion emotion, as the spark-plug.

Ctrl F4 clearly knows his shiz, but i question whether success is a primary objective within a relationship. The avoiding of conflict is not something to be valued, just for the sake of avoiding it, IMO. If you dislike something, and are aware it's irrational, that is not cause enough by itself to avoid conflict. I simply feel that a feeling itself is justification for action, as long as you don't pretend you are the king of being right, simply for feeling something. Something like that, anyway.

The idea is that a purely emotional response is always correct, as it is true of how you feel. Intellectual self-improvement has this general effect of invalidating your irrational emotions, and stripping you of them. It is extremely hard not to accidently treat your emotional reactions as the enemy when when reasoned thought based self-improvement generally conflicts with the entire relationship you seek or are a part of.

There is no goal to be achieved, no situation to be overcome, no end outcome that is to be strived for.

Beyond that, this perfectionism is unrealistic to expect from an NT or an aspie, as this self-improvement method can lead to a greater divide between us and whoever we're interested in.

Not advisable to bring order to a relationship. Building saftey nets and having them work is not an indicator of the relationship, merely an indication of the individual. It is far better to gear a solution to a unique individual. Entering a relationship with preconceived idea, especially correct ones, can be barriers instead of positives.

-LeLetch, who considers, the above post half response, half rant.

It's not stupid at all. Many NTs find this difficult to do as well. What usually ends up happening is that most people learn about each other over the course of months or years. I've just learned how to compress that into a matter of minutes.

But yes, you have to be genuinely interested in learning about someone. People are actually interesting. Everybody has a different, interesting story. You just have to discover it.

You can get to learn people's values anywhere and anytime. It's a bit of an art because you have to learn how to balance statements and questions. As you've noticed, asking too many questions make you sound like an interrogator (I went through that painful phase to learn what is too much). The trick is to sandwich questions with statements. You can also elicit responses with statements as well. Best if the statements relate to her. You also want to intermittently sprinkle humor so things don't get too heavy. Here's an example from my date earlier tonight (I left out the questions she asked me so it's easier to follow the conversation, and her responses were much longer and more detailed, so I paraphrased). Keep in mind she is a 25 year-old NT, and I'm 33 year-old aspie, so we're very much different, but we were still able to connect.

ME: So what do you do? [Ask an open ended question.]
HER: I go to school studying biology.
ME: Oh, very cool! You know, biology is a very broad field. [I also studied biology, but I don't want to explicitly state this because it's unattractive to force a connection. Better if she discovers that on her own. I also don't ask a question to ask what area in biology; I simply point out how unspecific she was, which should any socially intelligent person to get the hint.]
HER: Yeah...I've been studying human biology and kinesthesiology.
ME: Right on. I have a friend who has a Masters in human biology and human nutrition, so he's able to help me out with my fitness and health stuff. [I'm simply relating to her.]
HER: Nice! I've been trying to get into better shape and eat healthier myself. So hard.
ME: I know, right! You gotta get the ball rolling...once you get the momentum going, it's easier. Getting it started...haha, that's the hardest part. So you're studying biology...why not art...or music...or home ec? [I wanted to steer the conversation back towards her values before it gets too awkward to return to the topic...wait too long and it sounds forced...we also already have a bunch of other topics we can re-visit. I also inject some humor/teasing to keep the mood light...get too heavy for too long and things get awkward. Also note that I made a statement and a question...so it's not interrogative.]
HER: Home ec? Haha! Nah, I actually wanted to be an actress at first, but I found out it wasn't for me. But I've always been into science. I watched the Discovery Channel when I was a kid.
ME: You know, when I was a kid, I wanted to be an entomologist. Not a fireman, not a policeman, and not an astronaut. An entomologist. I was also really into dinosaurs. Like REALLY into dinosaurs, haha. [I'm just relating to her...and implicitly showing her I'm really in to science...again, try to avoid explicitness like "Oh, I'm into science too." Demonstrate it, not say it.]
HER: Who wasn't into dinosaurs?!

We spend a few minutes talking about recent dinosaur discoveries.

ME: So I see you're a smart gal. What do you want to do with biology after you graduate? [Again, statement and question. It's okay to just ask a question by itself, but don't do it too much. Also, I wanted to tell her she's smart because she needs to know why I like her besides her looks.]
HER: I want to be a physician's assistant. I like to help people.
ME: Do you see yourself doing that...forever? [This question is to get her to think about if that's her real dream.]
HER: Hmm, actually, I think I really want to get back into acting.

Many people will not get to this level of deep understanding about her, even in months or years. At this point though, she feels like I get her at a level much deeper than most of her friends.

I could have found out her real passion is acting much quicker, but I wanted to keep things light and casual, hence all the side-tracked conversation. You can drill down to people's values very quickly with anyone, male or female, on the street, store, carnival, etc. by asking the right questions.

Here's the basic structure I adhered to in the above conversation:

ME: What do you do? [Open ended question.]
HER: Blah blah blah.
ME: Why not ABC or XYZ? [Understand why that choice.]
HER: Blah blah blah.
ME: Do you see yourself doing that forever? [Drill down to her real dreams and passions.]



You always want to be objective with everything. And what I was trying to say is that taking the risk is right path if you weigh the pros and cons.

There's a lot of confusion with what "objectivity" and "subjectivity" is.

Objectivity = Creating content from reality.
Subjectivity = Creating content from within oneself.

Subjectivity has no basis in reality.


As with any plan, one should start from the beginning. Take baby steps. There's a lot of learn, and if one is impatient, he/she can become overwhelmed and unnecessarily frustrated. A lot of the complaints that social skills is illogical stems from not seeing how it all fits together. Yes, it's a very large, complex puzzle, and it is indeed challenging, but that doesn't mean you should give up.

By the way, I think it's better define yourself by your passions, not your day job. Freelance graphic designer and competitive gamer IS interesting. But describe what you do, not give out the title. It's easier for people to relate to if you can describe it in such a way that makes sense to them. For example, you can say that you beautify websites (or whatever it is that you design, but make it something that your audience can relate to) and are a virtual athlete. People will inquire more about it, and you can talk a lot about it in an interesting and relatable way.


I think that's a great example of how continued exposure and practice of being a server has made you skilled in those settings. You can apply the same principle to other social settings. The challenge is finding the right guidance so you know how to introspect correctly. Psychologists are an example of good guidance. It also sounds like you perform better socially with less social pressure. Being able to handle social pressure comes through experience. You just have to put yourself out there.

A month ago, I was invited to happy hour. I had not gone out for months, and I didn't know anyone except for the person who invited me. When I got to the bar, I walked out because my social anxiety was so intense. I started to drive back home, but I talked myself into turning around and socialize because I recognized how unhealthy that was. I actually ended up having fun, but even if I didn't, the most important thing is that I gained valuable experience. I pushed myself past my comfort zone and the next time I'm in a similar situation, I'll know what to expect, and thus feel less nervous. I notice that if I don't continue to expose myself to social situations, my social anxiety relapses or gets worse.

Last edited by Ctrl_F4 on 01 Oct 2013, 4:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

Why would you not want to learn autopilot behavior in relationships? We all have autopilot behaviors in everyday life. If we didn't, we would be too busy thinking about how to drive, how to type, how to do our jobs, how to express gratitude, etc.

Thinking has primacy over emotions. This is a chicken vs. egg question. Both are important, but to champion emotions over thinking is the essence if irrationality. Use thinking to develop healthy emotions. People who don't think don't introspect, and thus develop unhealthy emotions. These people feel like they don't have control of their lives, and develop unhealthy coping mechanisms to rationalize their irrationality (if you notice how contradictory that sounds, it's because it is).

To make clear:

Rational = Thinking logically
Irrational = Thinking emotionally

Without thinking rationally, you never know if your emotions are healthy. Thinking irrationally perpetuates unhealthy emotions.