Learning some PUA skills is never helpful
28 Mar 2014, 4:24 pm
leafplant wrote:
^ are you two implying that I am a cold, heartless, analytical robot?
No. I'm sure you have emotions. I was just explaining how it's hard for some people to think in super logical reductionist terms when it comes to morality as it applies to their own lives individually. Your description of morality comes off as kind of reductionist, like putting everything under the microscope talking about the rules. I don't want to claim I know exactly where starvingartist is coming from, but I thought I had a gist of where the disagreement originated. Explaining everything in terms of rules and strategies and manipulation in order to gain a desired end is just disturbing to her, I'm guessing. I kind of see both sides though.
28 Mar 2014, 4:48 pm
marshall wrote:
leafplant wrote:
^ are you two implying that I am a cold, heartless, analytical robot?
No. I'm sure you have emotions. I was just explaining how it's hard for some people to think in super logical reductionist terms when it comes to morality as it applies to their own lives individually. Your description of morality comes off as kind of reductionist, like putting everything under the microscope talking about the rules. I don't want to claim I know exactly where starvingartist is coming from, but I thought I had a gist of where the disagreement originated. Explaining everything in terms of rules and strategies and manipulation in order to gain a desired end is just disturbing to her, I'm guessing. I kind of see both sides though.
Ahh yes, of course, I see both sides too - I just choose one over the other the same as everyone else. I find the intensity of emotional load too much to bear at the best of times without adding more than I absolutely have to.
28 Mar 2014, 4:52 pm
leafplant wrote:
Thank you for sharing your perspective but I fail to see how that is relevant to anyone not in your life unless you are implying that everyone should uphold the same standards as yourself or are you saying that the way you have chosen to think about morality is something that other should adopt for their benefit?
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
somehow i overlooked this when responding earlier--is this really true, do you not feel any guilt or remorse at all when you intentionally harm someone?
28 Mar 2014, 4:55 pm
leafplant wrote:
marshall wrote:
leafplant wrote:
^ are you two implying that I am a cold, heartless, analytical robot?
No. I'm sure you have emotions. I was just explaining how it's hard for some people to think in super logical reductionist terms when it comes to morality as it applies to their own lives individually. Your description of morality comes off as kind of reductionist, like putting everything under the microscope talking about the rules. I don't want to claim I know exactly where starvingartist is coming from, but I thought I had a gist of where the disagreement originated. Explaining everything in terms of rules and strategies and manipulation in order to gain a desired end is just disturbing to her, I'm guessing. I kind of see both sides though.
Ahh yes, of course, I see both sides too - I just choose one over the other the same as everyone else. I find the intensity of emotional load too much to bear at the best of times without adding more than I absolutely have to.
i don't understand this either. i don't feel like how i live is a choice--i don't see how i could choose to harm people to get what i want if i know beforehand that it will make me feel awful and i won't be able to live with myself. i also have no idea how i could possibly choose to feel less about things than i do. how is that a choice? am i missing something?
28 Mar 2014, 4:56 pm
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
Thank you for sharing your perspective but I fail to see how that is relevant to anyone not in your life unless you are implying that everyone should uphold the same standards as yourself or are you saying that the way you have chosen to think about morality is something that other should adopt for their benefit?
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
somehow i overlooked this when responding earlier--is this really true, do you not feel any guilt or remorse at all when you intentionally harm someone?
Well no, it would seem weird to feel guilty for doing something on purpose, don't you think? I mean, I cannot remember ever setting out to harm another person but I should think that if I ever did, I will take responsibility for my decision and therefore wouldn't expect to feel guilty.
It would be like saying, oh I accidentally slipped on the floor and fell on this man's dick - to excuse having an affair - i.e. ludicrous.
Edit: let me explain some more: For example, I am often contrary, so while I don't particularly WANT TO hurt anyone, I accept that me exercising my right to behave in a certain way or say certain things will cause hurt to some people who choose to feel hurt by such things as I may do or say - for example, you feel very disturbed by this conversation, and while I feel sorry for you I don't feel guilty about it nor do I think I should be feeling guilty about it because I consciously make a choice to post my words each and every time. idk, it all seems really logical to me, I am not sure I can actually see it from your POV
Last edited by leafplant on 28 Mar 2014, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
28 Mar 2014, 4:56 pm
marshall wrote:
leafplant wrote:
^ are you two implying that I am a cold, heartless, analytical robot?
No. I'm sure you have emotions. I was just explaining how it's hard for some people to think in super logical reductionist terms when it comes to morality as it applies to their own lives individually. Your description of morality comes off as kind of reductionist, like putting everything under the microscope talking about the rules. I don't want to claim I know exactly where starvingartist is coming from, but I thought I had a gist of where the disagreement originated. Explaining everything in terms of rules and strategies and manipulation in order to gain a desired end is just disturbing to her, I'm guessing. I kind of see both sides though.
yes marshall, you are right. i am deeply disturbed by this conversation.
28 Mar 2014, 5:02 pm
leafplant wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
Thank you for sharing your perspective but I fail to see how that is relevant to anyone not in your life unless you are implying that everyone should uphold the same standards as yourself or are you saying that the way you have chosen to think about morality is something that other should adopt for their benefit?
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
somehow i overlooked this when responding earlier--is this really true, do you not feel any guilt or remorse at all when you intentionally harm someone?
Well no, it would seem weird to feel guilty for doing something on purpose, don't you think? I mean, I cannot remember ever setting out to harm another person but I should think that if I ever did, I will take responsibility for my decision and therefore wouldn't expect to feel guilty.
It would be like saying, oh I accidentally slipped on the floor and fell on this man's dick - to excuse having an affair - i.e. ludicrous.
ok wait--either i'm totally misunderstanding what you're saying, or you're telling me that harming other people isn't wrong and there is no reason that harming people should make a person feel guilty because they are responsible for harming someone?
the whole purpose of the feeling of guilt, is to regulate our behaviour. when we internalise values from our families, from our culture, if we act against those values, guilt is meant to inform us of that transgression, and act to prevent future transgressions of the kind. it has a very practical purpose, and is one of the reasons why civilisation is at all possible--otherwise we would all still act like reptiles, completely motivated by self-interest. we have a cerebral cortex for a reason.
28 Mar 2014, 5:13 pm
leafplant wrote:
marshall wrote:
leafplant wrote:
^ are you two implying that I am a cold, heartless, analytical robot?
No. I'm sure you have emotions. I was just explaining how it's hard for some people to think in super logical reductionist terms when it comes to morality as it applies to their own lives individually. Your description of morality comes off as kind of reductionist, like putting everything under the microscope talking about the rules. I don't want to claim I know exactly where starvingartist is coming from, but I thought I had a gist of where the disagreement originated. Explaining everything in terms of rules and strategies and manipulation in order to gain a desired end is just disturbing to her, I'm guessing. I kind of see both sides though.
Ahh yes, of course, I see both sides too - I just choose one over the other the same as everyone else. I find the intensity of emotional load too much to bear at the best of times without adding more than I absolutely have to.
The thing is, I'm going to experience emotional intensity no matter what. I don't have a choice in the matter. From that perspective, I'd much rather believe things such as good and love and friendship are real than succumb to cynicism and view everyone as walking chemical reactions with levers and strings to pull. I don't have a choice when it comes to feeling. I'm going to feel no matter what. There's either hope or there's bitterness. I don't have a neutral setting.
28 Mar 2014, 5:28 pm
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
Thank you for sharing your perspective but I fail to see how that is relevant to anyone not in your life unless you are implying that everyone should uphold the same standards as yourself or are you saying that the way you have chosen to think about morality is something that other should adopt for their benefit?
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
somehow i overlooked this when responding earlier--is this really true, do you not feel any guilt or remorse at all when you intentionally harm someone?
Well no, it would seem weird to feel guilty for doing something on purpose, don't you think? I mean, I cannot remember ever setting out to harm another person but I should think that if I ever did, I will take responsibility for my decision and therefore wouldn't expect to feel guilty.
It would be like saying, oh I accidentally slipped on the floor and fell on this man's dick - to excuse having an affair - i.e. ludicrous.
ok wait--either i'm totally misunderstanding what you're saying, or you're telling me that harming other people isn't wrong and there is no reason that harming people should make a person feel guilty because they are responsible for harming someone?
the whole purpose of the feeling of guilt, is to regulate our behaviour. when we internalise values from our families, from our culture, if we act against those values, guilt is meant to inform us of that transgression, and act to prevent future transgressions of the kind. it has a very practical purpose, and is one of the reasons why civilisation is at all possible--otherwise we would all still act like reptiles, completely motivated by self-interest. we have a cerebral cortex for a reason.
Actually I think that's just Christian rhetoric. It doesn't work for those of us who are not religious. I find guilt a very unhelpful emotion. I have always found my own personal behaviour was better moved to improvement by positive reinforcements rather than any guilt. Guilt just makes me resent those people who have caused it in the first place.
I personally believe that we are all one and therefore actually harming another in effect harms oneself. This can get philosophically challenging at times, of course, but this is a belief that I found the most comfortable for myself. Of course, I realise it is folly like all other beliefs, but you have to have an operating system of some sort..anyway..this has turned into too much of a PPR discussion
Let me assure you that I do not condone or excuse intentional harming of anyone, not even oneself (which is why I completely fail to comprehend the allure of BSMD for example).
28 Mar 2014, 5:33 pm
leafplant wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
Thank you for sharing your perspective but I fail to see how that is relevant to anyone not in your life unless you are implying that everyone should uphold the same standards as yourself or are you saying that the way you have chosen to think about morality is something that other should adopt for their benefit?
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
somehow i overlooked this when responding earlier--is this really true, do you not feel any guilt or remorse at all when you intentionally harm someone?
Well no, it would seem weird to feel guilty for doing something on purpose, don't you think? I mean, I cannot remember ever setting out to harm another person but I should think that if I ever did, I will take responsibility for my decision and therefore wouldn't expect to feel guilty.
It would be like saying, oh I accidentally slipped on the floor and fell on this man's dick - to excuse having an affair - i.e. ludicrous.
ok wait--either i'm totally misunderstanding what you're saying, or you're telling me that harming other people isn't wrong and there is no reason that harming people should make a person feel guilty because they are responsible for harming someone?
the whole purpose of the feeling of guilt, is to regulate our behaviour. when we internalise values from our families, from our culture, if we act against those values, guilt is meant to inform us of that transgression, and act to prevent future transgressions of the kind. it has a very practical purpose, and is one of the reasons why civilisation is at all possible--otherwise we would all still act like reptiles, completely motivated by self-interest. we have a cerebral cortex for a reason.
Actually I think that's just Christian rhetoric. It doesn't work for those of us who are not religious. I find guilt a very unhelpful emotion. I have always found my own personal behaviour was better moved to improvement by positive reinforcements rather than any guilt. Guilt just makes me resent those people who have caused it in the first place.
I personally believe that we are all one and therefore actually harming another in effect harms oneself. This can get philosophically challenging at times, of course, but this is a belief that I found the most comfortable for myself. Of course, I realise it is folly like all other beliefs, but you have to have an operating system of some sort..anyway..this has turned into too much of a PPR discussion
Let me assure you that I do not condone or excuse intentional harming of anyone, not even oneself (which is why I completely fail to comprehend the allure of BSMD for example).
i'm not christian: i was raised in a secular household, we never went to any church.
i'm not religious, and it works just fine for me.
28 Mar 2014, 5:43 pm
Well all I can tell you is that I wasn't raised like that. I was specifically raised not to feel guilty but to consciously choose to do the right thing. Both my parents believed that using emotional blackmail was a horrible thing to do to others - this is something people do on purpose to make others feel guilty so that they would do what they want. I hate manipulation. Anyhow, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
28 Mar 2014, 5:59 pm
leafplant wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
leafplant wrote:
Thank you for sharing your perspective but I fail to see how that is relevant to anyone not in your life unless you are implying that everyone should uphold the same standards as yourself or are you saying that the way you have chosen to think about morality is something that other should adopt for their benefit?
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
(I am not being awkward on purpose, it really just isn't clear)
For contrast, I feel guilty when people are hurt by my unintentional actions whereas I don't feel guilty if I have caused someone harm on purpose.
I am not sure what we can learn from this collectively other than what we already know from before - i.e. that there are socially endorsed behaviours that are acceptable and not acceptable.
somehow i overlooked this when responding earlier--is this really true, do you not feel any guilt or remorse at all when you intentionally harm someone?
Well no, it would seem weird to feel guilty for doing something on purpose, don't you think? I mean, I cannot remember ever setting out to harm another person but I should think that if I ever did, I will take responsibility for my decision and therefore wouldn't expect to feel guilty.
It would be like saying, oh I accidentally slipped on the floor and fell on this man's dick - to excuse having an affair - i.e. ludicrous.
ok wait--either i'm totally misunderstanding what you're saying, or you're telling me that harming other people isn't wrong and there is no reason that harming people should make a person feel guilty because they are responsible for harming someone?
the whole purpose of the feeling of guilt, is to regulate our behaviour. when we internalise values from our families, from our culture, if we act against those values, guilt is meant to inform us of that transgression, and act to prevent future transgressions of the kind. it has a very practical purpose, and is one of the reasons why civilisation is at all possible--otherwise we would all still act like reptiles, completely motivated by self-interest. we have a cerebral cortex for a reason.
Actually I think that's just Christian rhetoric. It doesn't work for those of us who are not religious. I find guilt a very unhelpful emotion. I have always found my own personal behaviour was better moved to improvement by positive reinforcements rather than any guilt. Guilt just makes me resent those people who have caused it in the first place.
I personally believe that we are all one and therefore actually harming another in effect harms oneself. This can get philosophically challenging at times, of course, but this is a belief that I found the most comfortable for myself. Of course, I realise it is folly like all other beliefs, but you have to have an operating system of some sort..anyway..this has turned into too much of a PPR discussion
Let me assure you that I do not condone or excuse intentional harming of anyone, not even oneself (which is why I completely fail to comprehend the allure of BSMD for example).
I absolutely get this.
I rarely choose to take action that I know will harm another, but when I do, it's because I've weighed all the options and it's generally the lesser harm all around. Rarely will I choose to hurt another over hurting myself, but sometimes if the hurt to me will reach dangerous levels, I will choose a lesser hurt to another. I also don't believe in guilt.
28 Mar 2014, 6:10 pm
Eureka13 wrote:
leafplant wrote:
Actually I think that's just Christian rhetoric. It doesn't work for those of us who are not religious. I find guilt a very unhelpful emotion. I have always found my own personal behaviour was better moved to improvement by positive reinforcements rather than any guilt. Guilt just makes me resent those people who have caused it in the first place.
I personally believe that we are all one and therefore actually harming another in effect harms oneself. This can get philosophically challenging at times, of course, but this is a belief that I found the most comfortable for myself. Of course, I realise it is folly like all other beliefs, but you have to have an operating system of some sort..anyway..this has turned into too much of a PPR discussion
Let me assure you that I do not condone or excuse intentional harming of anyone, not even oneself (which is why I completely fail to comprehend the allure of BSMD for example).
I personally believe that we are all one and therefore actually harming another in effect harms oneself. This can get philosophically challenging at times, of course, but this is a belief that I found the most comfortable for myself. Of course, I realise it is folly like all other beliefs, but you have to have an operating system of some sort..anyway..this has turned into too much of a PPR discussion
Let me assure you that I do not condone or excuse intentional harming of anyone, not even oneself (which is why I completely fail to comprehend the allure of BSMD for example).
I absolutely get this.
I rarely choose to take action that I know will harm another, but when I do, it's because I've weighed all the options and it's generally the lesser harm all around. Rarely will I choose to hurt another over hurting myself, but sometimes if the hurt to me will reach dangerous levels, I will choose a lesser hurt to another. I also don't believe in guilt.
yes, i believe we have established that i am the freak here. i'll stop posting on this thread now.
28 Mar 2014, 6:27 pm
Bataar wrote:
What is PUA?
My thought exactly.....did I miss out on PUAness? Dang. <googling PUA now>
starvingartist et al, you are certainly not a freak. You are a valued member here and we welcome your thoughtful contributions.
_________________
The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown
Last edited by LabPet on 28 Mar 2014, 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
28 Mar 2014, 6:30 pm
starvingartist wrote:
yes, i believe we have established that i am the freak here. i'll stop posting on this thread now.
See, this is exactly why guilt is not helpful - now this looks like you are trying to guilt us into agreeing with you but we cannot because we have not be conditioned to be manipulated.
Your opinions are valuable and welcome, at no point did anyone say otherwise. The fact that you decided that you are a freak based on a lack of complete agreement with your point of view is purely down to your own conditioning. I certainly never even for a second thought of you as a freak or thought of our exchange as anything other than an interesting discussion.
I hope you will reconsider your situation and realise you have a full freedom to choose how you view what happens to you.
