Why DO males take the responsibility for initiating?

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marshall
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16 Apr 2014, 11:17 am

Klowglas wrote:
Women want the feeling of security; which is what a man's confidence can provide, if he has no confidence then the illusion isn't there. Someone that initiates needs to be somewhat confidant, or at least more so than a man that doesn't initiate.

I will say that this sort of selection was necessary for humanity to survive up to this point. Men needed to have killer instincts in order to protect the farm/tribe/village, a man's confidence is a reflection of this mentality, women choose the killer male because the killer male will protect her.

However, society is LOONG passed this need, and yet, men still need to be the ones to risk rejection.

It isn't quite fair if you ask me.

But it' not something that's not going away because it has power at it's root, you're not going to be able to tell some 18 year old not to run off with the bad boy 'killer male' because like all humans, we are OBSESSED with power.

But a sad truth here is that by choosing the killer male, a woman divorses herself from the sort of male that can provide for her emotional needs, killer males need to eliminate tender parts of themselves very early on in order to prepare themselves for a life of violence, the teasing in the school yard, the hazing -- it's all preparing them for war, which requires mental fortifications...this distances the male from providing for a womans emotional needs, which is accessed through tenderness and empathy.

It's incredibly sad and depressing, we're so passed the tribal stages of humanity, lets evolve for petes sake.


The idea that men are to be protectors is obsolete in a modern technologically advanced capitalistic society. Physical size and strength mean nothing in a society where survival is predicated on successfully selling yourself, i.e. being a good hustler. "Confidence" is a euphemism for being a good schmooze/glad-hand/charmer. In terms of climbing the corporate ladder and providing dough, cocktail party soshul skillz trump being a traditional "bad boy". The modern capitalistic "alpha" isn't the caveman/brute, but the psychopathic pretty boy douchebag that can out-swindle everyone else.



marshall
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16 Apr 2014, 11:52 am

Meh. Please take my last post with a grain of salt.



The_Face_of_Boo
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16 Apr 2014, 11:53 am

marshall wrote:
Klowglas wrote:
Women want the feeling of security; which is what a man's confidence can provide, if he has no confidence then the illusion isn't there. Someone that initiates needs to be somewhat confidant, or at least more so than a man that doesn't initiate.

I will say that this sort of selection was necessary for humanity to survive up to this point. Men needed to have killer instincts in order to protect the farm/tribe/village, a man's confidence is a reflection of this mentality, women choose the killer male because the killer male will protect her.

However, society is LOONG passed this need, and yet, men still need to be the ones to risk rejection.

It isn't quite fair if you ask me.

But it' not something that's not going away because it has power at it's root, you're not going to be able to tell some 18 year old not to run off with the bad boy 'killer male' because like all humans, we are OBSESSED with power.

But a sad truth here is that by choosing the killer male, a woman divorses herself from the sort of male that can provide for her emotional needs, killer males need to eliminate tender parts of themselves very early on in order to prepare themselves for a life of violence, the teasing in the school yard, the hazing -- it's all preparing them for war, which requires mental fortifications...this distances the male from providing for a womans emotional needs, which is accessed through tenderness and empathy.

It's incredibly sad and depressing, we're so passed the tribal stages of humanity, lets evolve for petes sake.


The idea that men are to be protectors is obsolete in a modern technologically advanced capitalistic society. Physical size and strength mean nothing in a society where survival is predicated on successfully selling yourself, i.e. being a good hustler. "Confidence" is a euphemism for being a good schmooze/glad-hand/charmer. In terms of climbing the corporate ladder and providing dough, cocktail party soshul skillz trump being a traditional "bad boy". The modern capitalistic "alpha" isn't the caveman/brute, but the psychopathic pretty boy douchebag that can out-swindle everyone else.


Wrong.

Women, the vast majority of them (including here on WP LOL - I am looking at you Eureka), prefer men taller than themselves, one of the most common reason given by themselves is because bigger men make them feel secure and protected.

The technological advances don't neglect that preference they have for stronger and taller men. Also the world is still full of dangers like rapists, criminals and gangs - so a woman would feel more safe when she's walking with a partner who's (at least perceived) significantly stronger than her.


Quote:
Physical size and strength mean nothing in a society where survival is predicated on successfully selling yourself


It still does when it comes to dating.



marshall
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16 Apr 2014, 12:17 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Wrong.

Women, the vast majority of them (including here on WP LOL - I am looking at you Eureka), prefer men taller than themselves, one of the most common reason given by themselves is because bigger men make them feel secure and protected.

The technological advances don't neglect that preference they have for stronger and taller men. Also the world is still full of dangers like rapists, criminals and gangs - so a woman would feel more safe when she's walking with a partner who's (at least perceived) significantly stronger than her.


Quote:
Physical size and strength mean nothing in a society where survival is predicated on successfully selling yourself


It still does when it comes to dating.


Finding a woman shorter and/or smaller than yourself isn't a dilemma for most guys. Being a big brute doesn't automatically make you a good "provider" like having the social skills to land a high paying job does. The biggest barrier to "alpha" status for people on this forum is social skills, not size/strength. I'm really sick of this shallow crap though. Don't take what I say seriously. I'm only participating to humor you people.



The_Face_of_Boo
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16 Apr 2014, 12:29 pm

marshall wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Wrong.

Women, the vast majority of them (including here on WP LOL - I am looking at you Eureka), prefer men taller than themselves, one of the most common reason given by themselves is because bigger men make them feel secure and protected.

The technological advances don't neglect that preference they have for stronger and taller men. Also the world is still full of dangers like rapists, criminals and gangs - so a woman would feel more safe when she's walking with a partner who's (at least perceived) significantly stronger than her.


Quote:
Physical size and strength mean nothing in a society where survival is predicated on successfully selling yourself


It still does when it comes to dating.


Finding a woman shorter and/or smaller than yourself isn't a dilemma for most guys. Being a big brute doesn't automatically make you a good "provider" like having the social skills to land a high paying job does.


I didn't say that.



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16 Apr 2014, 12:29 pm

smudge wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
Its expected of course that the male has to jump through hoops bend over backwards and do whatever it takes to impress a lady and ask her out only ending up with laughter and followed by a no!


Well I can certainly see why you're single.
:D :wtg: which is why i don't play their game anymore and ignore them then they start comeing to me but im not interested anyway because i dont catch on to their ques and simply they are just being nice that is is but oh well.


You look absolutely ridiculous.
:D I sometimes friendzone them afterwards. :P


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starvingartist
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16 Apr 2014, 2:22 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
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But, for sake of argument, I'll accept your paradigm - that men approach, and women don't. So, a man has to make the approach and possibly be rejected. Whereas the woman gets all dolled up, goes out, and no-one notices or approaches her. That, too, is rejection. It sucks either way.


That's true but it can be solved by appereance changes, there are plenty of stories by women confirm that:
http://www.quora.com/Physical-Appearanc ... attractive

A lot of them felt invisible before the change.


Do you know Kirsten Lindsmith, that girl on the WP Homepage? She had a very similar experience as those stories on the Quora page, her dating life was zero (because boys assumed she's lesbian) when she was wearing tomboyish-looking things but it significantly improved after appearance changes.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/article425.html


hear that girls? all you've got to do is completely change your appearance and learn to dress and behave like someone you're not, and then random strange men will find you attractive--yay! i'll get right on that. :roll:



marshall
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16 Apr 2014, 4:24 pm

starvingartist wrote:
marshall wrote:
I'm male and a gray asexual. I sometimes feel offended when women complain about men primarily wanting sex, or feeling entitled to have sex. There are plenty of men out there that desire companionship and deep emotional connection. Unfortunately, our sh***y society doesn't provide many avenues for satisfying connection outside of marriage and "relationships" . I mean, lets face it, for men "platonic" relationships have severe constraints. Men are usually not allowed to hug, touch, or hold hands with others of any gender without it being considered odd. Living with a partner is considered odd if you're not having sex. Plenty of men pursue relationships because they are genuinely lonely, not because they are sexually frustrated or feel stigmatized for being a "virgin" (I can't think of a more stupid concept). Not all men are shallow as*holes.


you're right, those kinds of generalisations can be applied either way and they are hurtful and inaccurate. there are more than just a few "exceptions", as FMX called them, there is an entire complex spectrum of human behaviour that is not for the most part strictly dictated by binary concepts such as gender. society as a whole needs to recognise how much black-and-white thinking in regards to gender issues and relationships impacts all of our lives negatively so that things can change. human beings are complicated, so human interaction is bound to be as well--you can't reduce human behaviour down to such false dichotomies and expect it to make sense seen from that false perspective. that's just not the whole picture, it's only a narrow slice of it.

and i think it's unfair how much boys/men are restricted in the kind of platonic gestures and expressions of affection that you mentioned--i think it's wrong to discourage boys/men from what should be considered perfectly normal and healthy behaviour that we wouldn't question in girls/women.


I agree. Society sucks. The problem is there's no easy way to force society to change. Most people are idiots with a very narrow perspective. A lot of popular ideas are driven by marketing which targets the "average" stereotype at the expense of diversity. If you look at advertising and pop culture we are constantly patronized by being told what we should want. The media is highly conformist in terms of tropes involving gender and sexuality because they cater to whatever they think will make them the most money. Targeting of mass appeal leads to conformism and stereotyping. Alternative perspectives just don't have the same power.



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16 Apr 2014, 4:46 pm

Yuzu wrote:
When I asked other women for advice on online dating they told me NOT to send the first message but send some signals by visiting their profile or rating them high or whatever then wait for them to message me.


I wonder what their rationale was for that advice - if any. Have they actually had some bad experiences from sending the first message? Did they merely consider it a waste of effort when they could get the same result by not messaging? Or were they just repeating what they heard from others without really thinking about it?

Yuzu wrote:
FMX wrote:
Yuzu wrote:
Question for the OP. Do you wait for women to initiate? If not, why don't you?

Oh, I've been waiting all my life! :lol: But I'm clearly not a representative case.

Really? Why?


It's a combination of many reasons. They've changed a bit over time, but perhaps the primary reason now is that I rate my chances of a successful relationship as extremely low and I'm just not desperate enough to go through all the pain that (I anticipate) I would have to go through to try it. I think a part of the reason for this is that I rarely see a woman attractive enough to be worth pursuing - even just on a physical level. This thread has confirmed what I already suspected: I have a woman's attitude to this! Unfortunately, not being an actual woman, I don't get approached, either.

Quote:
It's just that what women desire are not governed by physical needs, so they can go without it longer.


The same goes for me.


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mrquestor
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16 Apr 2014, 5:16 pm

Why are men responsible for initiating contact?. Because human biology dictates men are attracted to non aggressive women who submit to their interest and women are attracted to men powerful and succesfull enough that they'll give up their independent heart to.
Someday in the future this society will be gone and so will the promotion of "strong modern women" and all other concepts our society uses to obscure uncomfortable facts of nature . care to disagree?



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16 Apr 2014, 5:24 pm

mrquestor wrote:
Why are men responsible for initiating contact?. Because human biology dictates men are attracted to non aggressive women who submit to their interest and women are attracted to men powerful and succesfull enough that they'll give up their independent heart to. Someday in the future this society will be gone and so will the promotion of "strong modern women" and all other concepts our society uses to obscure uncomfortable facts of nature. care to disagree?


Yes.


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16 Apr 2014, 6:16 pm

Hopper wrote:
mrquestor wrote:
Why are men responsible for initiating contact?. Because human biology dictates men are attracted to non aggressive women who submit to their interest and women are attracted to men powerful and succesfull enough that they'll give up their independent heart to. Someday in the future this society will be gone and so will the promotion of "strong modern women" and all other concepts our society uses to obscure uncomfortable facts of nature. care to disagree?


Yes.
so you deny men and women are born with biologically programmed forms of of what's sexually attractive to them that societies try to influence and control? And you deny that gradually countries morals change, so much so.that In two hundred years people struggle to see why there ancestors believed in those philosophies?



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16 Apr 2014, 6:44 pm

mrquestor wrote:
Hopper wrote:
mrquestor wrote:
Why are men responsible for initiating contact?. Because human biology dictates men are attracted to non aggressive women who submit to their interest and women are attracted to men powerful and succesfull enough that they'll give up their independent heart to. Someday in the future this society will be gone and so will the promotion of "strong modern women" and all other concepts our society uses to obscure uncomfortable facts of nature. care to disagree?


Yes.
so you deny men and women are born with with biologically programmed forms of of what's sexually attractive to them that societies try to influence and control?


I deny that men and women are uniformly 'programmed' with a particular sexual attraction. The varieties of sexual attraction and behaviour and thought members of either gender have displayed throughout time and culture makes the idea of considering such a thing ridiculous.

Further, I deny that the conflict is between nature and society. It is between nature and nature, or perhaps rather one concept of nature and another. It is conflict within ourselves. No animal can go against its natural endowments, except by other natural endowments. No animal can step outside its nature, by definition. Humans are no different.

Biology dictates that humans cannot breathe unaided underwater. You can change all the laws you want, you can promote it all you want, it won't make humans able to breathe unaided underwater.

But apparent 'biological dictates' regarding our social being are gone against all the time, up and down the centuries. Right now, people all around the world are going against the 'biological dictates' you and many others demand of them. Sure, plenty are apparently comforming to them, but plenty aren't. If they were such 'biological dictates' as you propose, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, just as you won't ever have a serious, drawn out conversation as to whether or not humans can breathe unaided underwater.

Quote:
And you deny that gradually countries morals change, so much so.that In two hundred years people struggle to see why there ancestors believed in those philosophies?


Not at all. I was disagreeing with the assumption of your proposition. It seems to me you also do.


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16 Apr 2014, 7:36 pm

So as an aside are you denying people are born with a same sex attraction?. Human sexuality is pretty much the same world over . Varrying Different cultures have come up with different strategies and concepts for how people should apply it. Those that start applying unhealthy strategies such as ours will experience increasing frustration and chaos until the blowback replaces the culture with a better way or they dissapear. Meanwhile islamic countries if they hold to their values will continue existing for centuries.



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16 Apr 2014, 7:46 pm

I've wondered that for years but I have a legit answer for you my friend.
It is society. Society has molded people into believing this is acceptable and in truth it is not. Society has many men afraid of changing this in fear of being ridiculed. This society perception is believed is caused by the early days when women were mistreated and women retaliated to try to rectified the situation, now it has gone to the other extreme and actually it has been like that for decades now. I think what bugs you about this is the fact that you are more aware of things, probably from struggles and different outlook due to be ASD and you can actually see a deeper issue about this then what appears on the surface. There are actually groups out there that are trying to correct this. Some of these groups are "Masculinest", (I not a big fan of this group though and feel they are too aggressive and somewhat out of line). In truth men are very emotional and we are taught to suppress our emotions in order to "be a man." What I find interesting is that I actually know some women who think this social pressure they put on men is ridiculous as well! This can however be changed by speaking out. Write a blog or joins some groups that are trying to get the word out on this. I feel like if this is corrected there will be a more balance in regards to male/female and bring more peace into the word which could help ease other issue like the economy and political corruption.


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16 Apr 2014, 7:47 pm

Look at it this way: you can either do the choosing, or wait to be chosen. Which sounds like more fun?

In my time on dating sites, I've initiated contact as often as the men have when the man was a reasonably decent match with me. Just because most of the men who *do* initiate contact with me have obviously not bothered to read my profile and/or were scammers doesn't mean it doesn't work both ways.

In real life, I've had only one serious relationship that *I* didn't initiate. Over my lifetime I've also approached plenty of guys who turned me down....and a few of them even told me it was because I didn't wait for them to approach me, like a good little woman should. :roll: