The Cure for Nice Guy Syndrome

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Dantac
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13 May 2014, 8:31 am

hale_bopp wrote:
That actually made me feel quite empty inside. The look on the guys face in the middle picture made me feel really bad for him. He looked happy and felt accepted.


The whole comic is literally that. Its like a make-you-feel-bad version of Cyanide & Happiness

Image

www.bunicomic.com



goldfish21
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13 May 2014, 8:59 am

starryeyedvoyager wrote:
To be precise, when I talk about the "nice guy syndrome or problem", I am talking about people who, like someone else here put it quite succeedly, who complain that women don't give them the "respect they deserve". It lies within human nature that we want to make people means to our own ends to certain dregee (after all, even platonic friendship derives from our own need for social company and sharing our enjoyment with someone), but the equation I am critical about is:

I am nice. Other men are jerks. Therefore, I am better than them. Therefore, I would be more privileged to mate with women I find attractive. Women should find me more attractive. But they go for guys that are not as nice to them as I am, which I just defined myself as jerks. Therefore, women only go for jerks.

It bothers me that the sole motivation in this thinking is to be coercive, so the woman will drop her pants. The rational is, in essence, that they create their own moral pedestal, step on it and judge everyone from this perspective. This is self-righteousness at its very essence, because it shifts responsibility for a problem that is self perceived to be such to everyone else but yourself. There is no difference to some pompous jerk who flashes his bling around and tries to pick up girls in an expensive car. That he is more successul lies not within him being more or less a jerk than the "nice guy", he just knows who his target audience is - he knows his demographics. Women who fancy attributes in men like kindness, careing and being low-key and layed-back in attitued, they do not go for men like that, usually. That would be the right demographic group for the "nice guy", but he does not want them. He wants the "bimbos", tha "hot and naughty" girls that go for material wealth and a macho-attitude, because they are hotter.
Now, this is not necessarily true for all the self perceived "nice guys", some of them have "lower standards" as well. But from my experience, they still go for women where I, as an observer, know that they will not fall for it because they don't play "in the same league". When men say that being nice doesn't get them the girls they want, they almost always mean girls who are at least somewhat attractive. Let me put it the other way: How many of the, would go for a girl that is just "nice" to them, has a very good character, but is otherwise bland and unappealing?

It goes the same way around with women, they have their double standards, also, but in another aspect. You commonly hear about women not wanting to be objectified sexually, which is not true at all. They do want that. Everybody wants that. When women say they don't want to be objectified, one could usually add "...by guys I don't find attractive".
You can make a little experiment with yourself, no matter if man or woman:
Imagine the absolutely most stunning person you know, or the one you always had a crush on. Now consider that hey think about making love to you while in bed, fondling themselves. Would you object to that? Most certainly not, because if you knew, you would go over and be there with them lickedy-split, and we can all agree that this kind of behaviour is quite the definition of sexual objectification.
Imagine now the very same scenario, but switch out the attractive person with the most annoying, unnattractive and disgusting person you know. Suddenly, you'd rather wish they didn't don't you?

There is no inherently bad about having " a scheme". After all, it takes two to party, so if there is someone to be found that goes for it, by all means, knock yourself out. It becomes an issue, however, if you start projecting your own failure on other people's behaviour, when in reality, it is you own attitude that is the issue. Even more so when you like yourself in the role of the suffering martyr that takes "the high road" because he is such a moral character.


You're mistaking nice for weak and jerk for strong. Replace those adjectives, give it a think, and you'll see why women are attracted to "jerks," and not to "nice guys."


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Sweetleaf
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13 May 2014, 9:54 am

hale_bopp wrote:
Dantac wrote:
Image

:twisted:


That actually made me feel quite empty inside. The look on the guys face in the middle picture made me feel really bad for him. He looked happy and felt accepted.


Found it to be rather sad as well.


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Sweetleaf
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13 May 2014, 9:58 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
The cure for it is to grow a dick, to tell the woman that you find her attractive and ask her out.


I'd feel akward agreeing to go out with someone following the statement 'you're attractive' unless it was a small part of a bigger conversation as there would be no implication as to if we'd even get along.


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starryeyedvoyager
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13 May 2014, 12:55 pm

goldfish21 wrote:

You're mistaking nice for weak and jerk for strong. Replace those adjectives, give it a think, and you'll see why women are attracted to "jerks," and not to "nice guys."


Mea culpa, I should have made it clearer that I didn't mean to label the "jerks" as "jerks", but from the perspective of the "nice guys". The "jerks" are not necessarily strong, and the "nice guys" are not necessarily weak, I entertain that it is indeed more about the image you project. Most of these "jerks" are as insecure as the "nice guys", but they mask it to a certain point with a facade of macho-ism or materialism. I firmly believe that strength does not show on how your act is, but on how you act. This is my whole point - the "nice guys" from my definition are too obsessed about themselves standing on moral high-ground to question their ways and to act more like the "jerks". That this moral high ground stems from insecurity is another story, but so does my fear of too much intimacy, and I dont judge myself better than other people because of it, quite the contrary. It definitely hampers me as much as it does the "nice guys", but you don't see me complain about it all the time.
I happen to have a good friend of mine who would always come up with stuff why women didn't go for him: He is too nice, or all the girls go for latino-type guys (and mind you, he is of left-wing than me, yet he tried to argue that all the folks coming from Spain, Italy and Turkey took the girls aways. It is true that alot of German women marry Turks, followed by Italians and - mind you - US citizens, but there are MORE german men getting married to forreign women - Polish and Russian followed by Turkish and Thai than German women to forreign men. There are official statistics for that, the his point was moot. Then he started focusing more on himself and started to think that if he become buff, it would make a difference. And while I welcomed it to have a new gym-buddy, I can tell him first hand that this does not make a difference.

Quite the opposite. You see, over the past three years, I got in shape. As in: I did part-time modelling, I went from very obese to almost anorexic, to beefcake. I never did it for the looks, but for my sport and my own health, but it is a change very welcome indeed. I have noticed that I actually got less interaction with women now that I take care of my body than before, and I still have to wrap my head around why that is. I digress, point being: No matter what folks tell you, it is more about your attitude than anything else.

To that extent, you are perfectly right: women can smell "weakness" a mile away, and it welds their panties shut, if you wanna be blunt about it. The essence is this: Women go for strong, authoritive males. You can be strong and authoritive. If you are weak, you can fake it. But "faking" being weak and wondering why you don't get a girl - get outta here.



Aaendi
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13 May 2014, 1:37 pm

For the "nice guys have low testosterone level" argument, what does testosterone have anything to do with ability of manipulating women's emotion?



Dantac
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13 May 2014, 2:23 pm

Aaendi wrote:
For the "nice guys have low testosterone level" argument, what does testosterone have anything to do with ability of manipulating women's emotion?


I don't believe low T is the reason but T does have a significant impact on a person's behavior (male and female) if its lower or even higher than normal.

Higher T. is known to make people more aggressive (verbally and through body language), prone to taking more risks, changes vocal chord coordination patterns (subtle changes to the voice...aka think of how 'confident' you sound when you're very upset and arguing about what you're upset about), increases physical body tone and even changes the composition of your pheromones (which affects female behavior).

Lower T. levels reduces the above below 'normal'.

A 'nice guy' on low T just doesn't cut it for the majority of women as a choice partner. The 'T' they look for in healthy mates is missing.

But again, this could be just one of the many factors involved. Plenty of normal T males end up 'nice guy' and chronically & fatally friend-zoned.



starvingartist
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13 May 2014, 2:29 pm

i have higher than normal testosterone for a female and i am neither competitive nor aggressive.



cubedemon6073
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13 May 2014, 4:45 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0ERFVvJu0s

Based upon this, do you all think there is some basis to what the nice guys say?



Hopper
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13 May 2014, 5:00 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0ERFVvJu0s

Based upon this, do you all think there is some basis to what the nice guys say?


My internet is being mightily slow tonight, so Youtube isn't really working for me. Going by the comments and context, is this a thing where a man was nice - or just 'nice' - and the woman didn't appreciate it, perhaps even taking off with what we are to consider a jerk?

I don't think anyone would deny some women get into relationships of various seriousness with jerks (why they do, of course, being a whole other matter). It is a hell of a contortion from that particular fact to the Nice Guy mentality. Not forgetting that Nice Guys tend to their own brand of jerkiness.


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You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


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13 May 2014, 5:11 pm

Hopper wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0ERFVvJu0s

Based upon this, do you all think there is some basis to what the nice guys say?


My internet is being mightily slow tonight, so Youtube isn't really working for me. Going by the comments and context, is this a thing where a man was nice - or just 'nice' - and the woman didn't appreciate it, perhaps even taking off with what we are to consider a jerk?

I don't think anyone would deny some women get into relationships of various seriousness with jerks (why they do, of course, being a whole other matter). It is a hell of a contortion from that particular fact to the Nice Guy mentality. Not forgetting that Nice Guys tend to their own brand of jerkiness.


Personally, I think we lived in a screwed up society in which people don't know up from down.



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13 May 2014, 5:30 pm

Hopper wrote:
What do you consider a Nice Guy?

I think Nice Guy syndrome is the product of an infantile, self-centered culture. It is not a reaction to it, but an accurate instantiation of it.

From my experience, I'd recommend:

a) Grow up.


^ this

It's really quite simple. A woman is not a vending machine that you put kindness into and can expect sex to come out.


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Hopper
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13 May 2014, 5:32 pm

T'was ever thus.

Some apt lines from Eliot's Prufrock, a favourite of mine:


And indeed there will be time
To wonder, ?Do I dare?? and, ?Do I dare??
Time to turn back and descend the stair,
With a bald spot in the middle of my hair?
(They will say: ?How his hair is growing thin!?)
My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin?
(They will say: ?But how his arms and legs are thin!?)
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

For I have known them all already, known them all:
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?

And I have known the eyes already, known them all?
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?

And I have known the arms already, known them all?
Arms that are braceleted and white and bare
(But in the lamplight, downed with light brown hair!)
Is it perfume from a dress
That makes me so digress?
Arms that lie along a table, or wrap about a shawl.
And should I then presume?
And how should I begin?
. . . . . . . .

Shall I say, I have gone at dusk through narrow streets
And watched the smoke that rises from the pipes
Of lonely men in shirt-sleeves, leaning out of windows??

I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.
. . . . . . . .

And the afternoon, the evening, sleeps so peacefully!
Smoothed by long fingers,
Asleep ? tired ? or it malingers,
Stretched on the floor, here beside you and me.
Should I, after tea and cakes and ices,
Have the strength to force the moment to its crisis?
But though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed,
Though I have seen my head (grown slightly bald) brought in upon a platter,
I am no prophet?and here?s no great matter;
I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid.

And would it have been worth it, after all,
After the cups, the marmalade, the tea,
Among the porcelain, among some talk of you and me,
Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question,
To say: ?I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all??
If one, settling a pillow by her head,
Should say: ?That is not what I meant at all;
That is not it, at all.?

And would it have been worth it, after all,
Would it have been worth while,
After the sunsets and the dooryards and the sprinkled streets,
After the novels, after the teacups, after the skirts that trail along the floor?
And this, and so much more??
It is impossible to say just what I mean!
But as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen:
Would it have been worth while
If one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
And turning toward the window, should say:
?That is not it at all,
That is not what I meant, at all.?
. . . . . . . .

No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant lord, one that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad to be of use,
Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
At times, indeed, almost ridiculous?
Almost, at times, the Fool.

I grow old ? I grow old ?
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think that they will sing to me.

[Full text: http://www.bartleby.com/198/1.html ]


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


Klowglas
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13 May 2014, 6:20 pm

Onewithwings wrote:
Hopper wrote:
What do you consider a Nice Guy?

I think Nice Guy syndrome is the product of an infantile, self-centered culture. It is not a reaction to it, but an accurate instantiation of it.

From my experience, I'd recommend:

a) Grow up.


^ this

It's really quite simple. A woman is not a vending machine that you put kindness into and can expect sex to come out.


The best sort of affection is measured in kindness, receiving genuine affection is much more precious than gold and whatever thing money can buy, it's really the best sort of thing and the rarest sort of thing -- everything else pales in comparison.



Onewithwings
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13 May 2014, 11:33 pm

It isn't the kindness that's the problem-- it's the expectation of sex in return.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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14 May 2014, 2:39 am

Onewithwings wrote:
It isn't the kindness that's the problem-- it's the expectation of sex in return.


Not necessarily sex, they might expect a relationship in return.

Relationship =/= sex.