Are relationships always this complicated?

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You do have to actually be ready for a relationship, which someone in their early twenties probably is not.

True about making the effort, but relationships ... well, you can't MAKE them happen. You have to be OPEN to them happening, which would mean actually noticing when someone you are really compatible with crosses your path and seems interested in you, and acting accordingly; but you can't make them happen by actively seeking them.

First, I think you've got that out of context. Second, I don't see you as a loser at all. Maybe I'm remembering who has posted what incorrectly, or maybe I've missed a lot of your threads (I don't have the same level of memory and pattern sense that most members here do) but I do not recall you consistently whining and blaming it all on someone else. I do recall you being sincere and reasonable. That is an important difference.

Why are you so desperate to leave certain impressions on your family? First, their impressions don't define you. Second, in my life experience, people who speak like you are speaking invariably misread what it will take to impress the people they are trying to impress; it would be a good guess to say you are calling their needs all wrong. The end result is usually that in the effort to live up to what you think they are expecting or looking for, you actually dig yourself into a bigger hole with them and mess up your own life all at the same time.

This is exactly why you should NOT be in a relationship. Your driving forces are all wrong. Quite frankly, you've written a lot of sentences that meet the definition of a narcissist to a T (not to say you are; I don't know you; I only know how select sentences are coming across); you can't be that focused on what you think other people are thinking. Your thought process is going to destroy you and all your relationships.

My husband and I are high IQ people; considered smart by all the people around us. I do assume my kids will thrive best in relationships with smart people, not that I've ever told them that. But neither one of us is dumb enough to think that a lazy eye indicates a lack of intelligence. Surgery is risky and not always worth it; your judgment on that issue is off base. Nor would I think my son must be desperate coming home with a girl like that; to the contrary, I would be happy to know he wasn't 100% superficial, and I would be eager to get to know the sides of her that attracted him. I would be seriously disappointed in my son if I discovered a girlfriend of his had surgery on something like that only because he wanted it for her. I would be seriously saddened if my son were posting the views on the subject that you have, and I'd be wondering why I failed to accurately impart my feelings on these topics.

f**k you, leave the girl alone.

My ex husband is BDP and a narcissist. I diagnosed it in him long before he was diagnosed, but wrongly diagnosed him with Asperger's long before we separated and blamed his 'issues' on Asperger's. Years later both my son and myself are diagnosed autistics. But I take your point and agree with you that the armchair diagnoses in this thread are worrying. It is worth consideration that we do often fall victim to narcissists, though, and I think it's important that we are aware of the red flags that we need to look out for so we don't become victims. (I don't think the OP is a victim in any sense here either, btw.)

I wonder what she would do or say if she read all of this shite. It's all pretty gross, isn't it.

At first I was thinking you should end this relationship as soon as possible because you don't love the girl and you will only end up hurting her.

Now I think you are worth each other. You both have self-esteem issues and trouble with ending a bad relationship. You both are controlling and worry too much about what others think of you. You make a great team (I'm being sarcastic here). The relationship is going to have a lot of ups and downs. But at least you will keep each other busy so innocent bystander won't be your victim.

Seriously. You can't enter any relationship with the attitude of "She is not my ideal but I am going to change her so she fits it" nor "I won't be able to get a better one anytime soon so I will just stick with this ugly thing for now".

Next time, unless you fell in love of the first sight with someone don't bother with starting a romantic relationship. Become friends instead. There are two ways of finding love. Romantic fascination from the start or feelings developing over time.

The first one fits your perspective: It would start if you found your ideal and decided to make her yours. But it would require a lot of self-confidence to fight all the other guys that also like her since your ideal is beautiful, intelligent girl that happen to be an ideal of many boys. So I wouldn't make a bet it would work for you.

The other one is something you don't seem to be capable of - yet. But it doesn't mean it is impossible for you. It comes naturally, you will just be surprised when it happens(although it might never happen, it depends how compatible you are with the friend).
At first the girl is going to be just a friend of you (one that isn't like your ideal at all and you don't want her to be one because look isn't important in a friend) but you gradually develop feelings towards her. Then one day you realize the feelings you feel is not just brotherly love and you actually like her more. Yet you won't expect her to be your ideal because you come to like her for just who she is. You won't change her. You will accept differences between her and your ideal because it's her. You won't think of her as ugly due to her weight despite still not liking overweight girls because it will be who she is. You might still want her to lose weight but not because of her look but because you will care about her health and self-esteem. You will be capable of saying "I love you just the way you are. But I will do my best to help you if you really want to lose weight." or "I don't want to loose you and your weight is killing your health. We need to work on it before its too late.".

in an emotional sense? or a practical(job, income, car, home, future)sense?

most early twenties have relationships and some have more then one in their 20s

Yes, I concur, many have several relationships before they even reach their twenties.

edit: though that would indicate some went wrong I guess. Quality over quantity, right?

Last edited by RetroGamer87 on 22 Feb 2015, 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, I probably wasn't ready at the time. I certainly wasn't ready in my teens, I actively avoided them at that time.Well, that worked for you. Maybe something different will work for me. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks right?I know what you're saying makes sense but... they just seem to get everything right all the time. It's infuriating watching them live in perfection, not my immediate family, who are far from perfect, more like my extended family. Aunts, uncles, cousins. All perfect. Some nice and some mean. Perfect regardless. The mean ones stopped being mean about me being me "ruining the economy" after I got a job. One of the others seemed impressed when he heard I was dating.

Do I need their approval? I shouldn't. Somehow I imagine they're more judgmental than they actually are. Maybe what I really want is my own approval. It's like I'm my own worst critic and then I project that onto people around me. I just think if I can tick everything off the bucket list and start living like a grownup, then maybe I'll be OK. Then maybe I can stop hating myself.How do you mean? You may be right but could you explain in a bit more detail?I'm not qualified to make that diagnosis. Sometimes I think I'm pretty cool guy and sometimes I think I'm total loser. Last year and the year before it was worse. I saw myself as a grotesque parody of a man, made more obscene by the vague resemblance. I thought every breath I drew was an affront to mankind.Well I don't think that but certain members of my friends and family would. They're even shallower than I am.

Some of it's the way she behaves. Sometimes she seems lucid but something she seems to not be all there. Sort of like she's immature, even more-so than I am. That's a part of it anyway.

Just today she demanded I take her a day off work so I could drive her somewhere when she could catch the bus. I refused. I offered to get someone else to drive her and she said to me "You have to do it because you're my boyfriend". I told her if that's what she wants she'd be better off having an unemployed boyfriend. Then she went on a spiel about how depressed she was.

Yesterday she demanded I buy her a Hello Kitty dole than changed her mind five minutes later. Today she's been demanding I play Maple Story when she knows I have to finish my course work and tidy the house. I'm not claiming to be the victim here, I'm just saying that all these things make me have doubts about her intelligence and maturity.Tried that once. Got friend zoned. She found a boyfriend as I befriended her.Yep, you just described her.You just described another of my friends. I've known her for so long I don't care that she's overweight. I'm used to her as she is. Shame she has a boyfriend.

I know that forcing things is bad and that going on dating sites makes such forcing all but inevitable but the thing I like about those sites is that the girls there tend to be single. That's something that doesn't happen in meatspace.

I'm confused on where it's complicated. I can't emphasize with you because what you said to her is very hurtful and if she hasn't broken up with you yet shame on her. There's nothing complicated about it, dude, think about what you said, that's really f****d up, you're only with her because you can't do better? Are you using her? Are you attracted to her? You need to figure those things out and fast before you two hurt each other. Dating people for your own self esteem is a completely f*****g horrible idea.

Seriously, just read what you said. Say it out loud. Say it to your mother, your close friends. They will all tell you the same thing I just said.

omg great wall of china

should have added a tl dr

On a more positive note, I think the OP is on the right track and that he posted here is a great sign. For the record, I never even got my first kiss till 29. Now I have kissed so many women I have lost count, upped my count to *ahem* 4 last night (could easily triple it if I was that kind of guy) and had to break another girl's heart since I am monogamous and had two women chasing me. You are frustratingly close to figure it out, Retrogamer87!

Just enjoy your friendship. Don't let her get too clingy---but do treat her with respect.

Let her go, be a decent bloke and do it gently, perhaps acknowledge your immaturity as the reason for the break up.
Irrespective of her flaws she is a sentient being, not a toy.

Well from what I can tell it was a miscommunitcation. I understand you meant well by trying to coach her to her goals although it had gotten misinterperated. What I'd do is sit her down when she's feeling not as upset and more calm. Tell her that you wanted to coach her and that the other stuff you said was just you trying to fix the mistake. Tell her how you truly felt, that you love her because of who she is and that you want to support her. You didn't mean to say that she wasn't special, you probably meant something else like she was the one you want to be with and you have no interest in anyone else because you love her. Talking it out will probably ease the situation, but it will take time to earn her trust. If you want to make a stronger display of your commitment surprise her. Get her something you know she would like or wants but has not really said much about it or take her to a place that holds sentimental value to her. Doing this could show how much you listen to her and how much you really do care overall. If you can fix the communication and trust in the relationship then it should improve and become stronger.

However if misunderstandings like what you described keep happening and increase in frequency and/or severity then there may be serious communication problems. If misunderstandings like this happen daily or on a weekly basis and you aren't happy for even half of the time you guys are together then it would probably be time to breakup. Also if these problems keep getting worse after you try to fix it or it starts to negatively impact your health then it is time to breakup. The last thing you want is to be in a toxic relationship because they can be very damaging.

Hopefully things will get better for you.