When you finally got first experience?

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I'd kick her out if she even mentioned going on looks alone. My relative position there shouldn't be relevant.

In fact, this is the only good thing with being with a highly attractive woman when you are average yourself. You know beforehand that she didn't select you based on attractiveness.

My point is that it would be crushing to know that your partner considered you an eyesore.

And I highly doubt the smartasses here saying how hideous us single people are chose partners they considered horribly unattractive.

The point about the overweight is that its one example amongst many, but I think it stands. I mean:

would suggest Sabreclaw thinks 'horribly obese' people being single is fine and dandy, but his being so is just not on. Which suggests a certain closed-mindedness and hypocrisy.

Carrie Fisher recently said 'my body is my brain bag, it hauls me around to those places & in front of faces where theres something to say or see', which is pretty much my attitude (for both myself and romantic interests). I make some effort with my own bag's presentation, and I certainly have my own tastes as to what strikes me as a particularly visually pleasing bag, but my own experience of attraction is that it starts with the brain. I can be put off by someone's physicality if it's too much of a turn-off (again, going by my own tastes), and they then become someone whose company I enjoy but whose bones I do not wish to jump.

But by and large people become physically attractive to me because of their character, their mind, their perspective, their wit etc. As long as there's nothing offputting about them, I'll get that feeling where I somehow want to take the draw I feel to their psyche and somehow physically express it by rubbing bits of our bodies together to mutual satisfaction.



That's pretty much what I've done even before I got a diagnosis (or considered the possibility of being AS). To go back to my example, the women I don't see, who don't register as of interest or possibility, would include most of the NTs. I know I am of limited appeal, but I know those who appeal to me is also limited - my experience of online dating has been thinking 'no. No. No. Maybe. No' one profile after another.

Frankly, it's been an education to learn there are ND people who don't. I'm obviously weird, and I'm drawn to the similarly weird. I spend a lot of time in my head, and what I need is someone who would like to share that space sometimes, and who has a head I can feel at home in. I can't imagine going about it any other way.

I never said obese people deserve to be single. My point is, a normal person would not consider their partner to be ugly. So why should I deliberately target people I find visually repulsive? Relationships should be based on mutual attraction, both mental and physical. If it's based on mutual disgust it's just not going to work.

MaxE was implying that people like me are only single because we're hideous and compared us to a body type that some might consider deformed (obese is not even remotely natural, it's seriously unhealthy and needs to be fixed). And as someone who has an average body type himself (decently tall, relatively slim), it is in no way hypocritical to find obese people unattractive.

Just so we're clear. That woman is most certainly obese. Don't anyone dare tell me that's "just curvy" and that's what a normal woman looks like. That body type is far from average.

Right. As I already claimed, I have a minimum attractivity standard, and I don't find many old or obese people attractive, and it is unlikely I would want to be in a relationship with them.

I don't think most singles here are single because they have too high standards. It's more likely related to using inappropriate methods than to too high standards, or to particular ND traits that make dating hard.

When it comes to first experiences, you have to realize that historically, any firsts are usually not good. Things improve over time. Consider the following:

* The first dog was a feral wolf-like animal that lacked the loyalty of the modern-day dog.
* The first town was just a cluster of houses, a church, and a goat, surrounded by dirt roads.
* The first Christmas took place in a manger, in a small town dwarfed by the neighboring Jerusalem.
* The first surgical tools were a little more than knives and hacksaws.
* The first airplane stayed in the air for less than a minute.
* The first microwave took up the entire kitchen.
* The first webpage was a plain HTML document with no dynamic content.
* The first cell phone was the size and weight of a brick.
* The first iPod had a mechanical scroll wheel and a black-and-white screen.

Similarly, my first girlfriend was unattractive in appearance and boring in personality. So there's nothing wrong with having a bad first experience with anything (or anyone). Expecting a great first experience is like expecting to understand calculus in a first grade math class. Sure, some genius kid might get it, but usually that's not true.

When you first experience anything, or do anything, you're a novice.

But you have to start somewhere.

There's an interesting slide from 'normal' in a statistical sense ('average') to 'normal' in a moral sense. That not only is such a woman out-of-the-ordinary in terms of weight, but also in terms of being morally acceptable.

I didn't see MaxE doing that at all. I saw him trying to point out that those who complain how they can't find a woman to take an interest in them may not have all that wide a selection criteria, and that there are many, many women such men would not themselves even consider dating. I saw it as an encouragement to take a bit of perspective and understanding. I tried to take this point and give my own take on it in my response.

There's nothing wrong with having standards, but it does look a bit hypocritical to hold standards for oneself while complaining when others also hold them just because they apparently exclude oneself. I'm not saying you do that - to my knowledge, I haven't seen such - but it goes on an awful lot around here.

Why does it always have to be a competition of who has it 'harder' there are hard things about dating for both males and females, they can certainly vary...but who are you to decide a women automatically has an easier time dealing with difficulties she may run into than a guy has dealing with the ones he runs into? how hard someone has it in dating isn't exclusively gender specific.

I have never felt I have a choice of waiting to be approached or approaching myself...for me I've never been able to approach anyone I don't know let alone ask anyone out, my option was the internet for the most part. Also I've never been one to have guys approaching me really, its happened a few times certainly nowhere near 50. I don't doubt being a single guy desiring a relationship, and struggling to approach women is hard...but being the girl who's gotten repeatedly led on, and stupidly making too much effort clinging to the jerks who did it isn't easy either.

There are guys who've had it harder in this area, and plenty who haven't. It's no use dwelling on who has it easier or harder. Also why would a female want to date a male who just assumes she's had an easy dating life before he even meets her, she'll probably wonder what else he figures he knows about her experiences based on her gender alone.

I sort of wonder how often guys pass up girls they see as 'out of their league'...sometimes it isn't the case at all. I know rather early on my boyfriend mentioned he was worried I was out of his league, which I thought was ridiculous because I couldn't think of anyone I'd rather be with.

with your permission, whenever i bump into this "debate" again, i'll just repost this quote, with no further additions or explanations


there's a problem with that though. i, for one, am not afraid of approaching good-looking women. i'm aware that strikingly good looks are correlated with self-esteem issues anyway. but i'm also aware that many women do use their good looks as a weapon to demoralize you if/when they want to put you down for whatever reason (especially when they have self-esteem issues themselves). and when a woman does that, it doesn't have to be just because she has a particularly abusive personality. it's socially encouraged. so it does demand caution

i make sure to express my appreciation for a woman's good looks, but i make sure to express at the same time that i'm not intimidated by it (even if i may be a little bit). if i like a woman who i judge to be "out of my league", she has to be the one to come to me. it's the only way to neutralize it, or else it will be a perennial source of tension and insecurity. i have to convey a degree of unattainability myself. "you are very attractive, but that alone doesn't make me pursue you". and if i can't influence her into taking initiative herself, then she really is effectively out of my league, and i better leave it at that

although that's not exclusively about looks. it applies to any and everything that may be felt as "superior status"

I felt the poll shared a higher purpose with those who met someone under eighteen and possibly in education. Unfortunately this wasn't a possibility that occurred due to the clubbing make up girls in my year group, although I made friends with some boys who were in my literary or music class, the subjects praised them more than it praised me.
I was very quiet, sure of what I wanted and wary of what I didn't.
Actually, they were high achievers themselves and we never had social media then, just texting and phone messenger. Everything was neutrally organised well before anything ever sped up and retail and marketing were the viable most distasteful options, things got better when I went to college, so maybe there were a few chance encounters there, but nothing of a bold venture until I left.
Everything seemed to become second nature when I reached 18 and ended up with a dead end job which I got sacked from because I was rubbish. I hadn't been diagnosed then until about the time I was 20, so between 18 and 20 everything went onto speed dial, then abruptly ended. I had grown up. The rest is history. I ll probably not get close to the son of a factory owner now, figure of speech, till the son has taken over and also grown up.

It's not that attractive women are out of my league, it's that there's some correlation between a woman's good looks and her being a threat to me. I use a threat rating system, based on the US government's terrorism threat ratings, to evaluate the women I meet. And their looks factor into my system. After all, the biggest weakness for most NTs are attractive women---and that goes for both men and women, even straight women. Knowing that, she can easily turn everyone against me using her looks alone.

That said, I've had situations involving very pleasant interactions with attractive women. On my cruise, when I asked one girl to dance, she smiled and touched me on the arm while turning me down, then asked me questions about how my cruise was going. I was floored by how nice she was, even though she was gorgeous. So it's not about looks putting a woman out of my league, it's about her using them to turn people against me, if I do something she doesn't like. I made a good impression on this girl on the cruise, despite not getting to dance with her; next time, I might not be so lucky.

I see the high proportion of people under 18 are just 'finding themselves out'. My friends, even NTs they were like this too. And came through casual dates through their 20's. Nothing always serious unless you find someone at least expected.

Its pretty common now days because the influence of ever changing technology and society.

I think the main factor is that if a very attractive woman wants to be with an average man, then there has to be something else involved in it. Why isn't she into very rich and/or attractive men? If the reason is acceptable, then I have no problem with it, but otherwise, it would be a red flag. Acceptable reasons might be being ND, having a hot temper (I can live with that) or having very odd interests or beliefs.

in my fifth decade. I was already past my "use by" date so I was a disappointment to all concerned.