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calandale
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29 May 2007, 9:51 pm

So wait, you're saying that original sin
precedes God in some way?

calandale
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29 May 2007, 9:55 pm

JonnyBGoode wrote:

That actually wasn't the Catholic view. (Or maybe it is - I'm not familiar with what Catholics believe on that point.) That was what I've come to believe from my own study on the subject. And if it happens to coincide with the Catholic view - then whaddaya know, they got one right.

It's pretty well established. Protestantism pretty much
takes these views as well - but some heresies
outright refuted them.

Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 9:56 pm

Kilroy wrote:

God is far from perfect!
he's not that nice either-I don't deserve what I get and a lot of people in the world don't either
how is he perfect for say letting the Holocaust happen?
you tell me?
and God's law is far from perfect-there's a lot of bugs in that (and ways to be taken differently)
it's not the best system man has come up with

The answer to the unfairness in the world is twofold: man's evil toward each other, and Satan's evil influence, both spiritual and even physical. Why God lets it play out to the extent it does -- and, indeed, why He also keeps it from getting any worse than it does -- is something you'll have to ask Him if you want to know. He did not make us pre-programmed robots to live in perfect order. Nope, it's free will -- this is the REAL DEAL, with REAL, automatic, natural consequences for both good deeds and evil deeds. This is not a simulation, though He does control it from getting any worse than it does.

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Kilroy
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29 May 2007, 9:58 pm

if he loves me so-why do I have AS?
if I'm such a good person (like people tell me I am) why am I tormented by most people?
why?
why do bad things happen to good people?

Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 9:59 pm

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

I know what I know, and I trust the rest.

Correction: You think you know what you know.
You are claiming to 'know' alsorts of things. Therefore it cannot be THAT absurd for me to assume that you 'know' everything else as well, right? :wink:

Well, thanks. But sarcasm aside, knowing everything and knowing lots of things is like lightning to a lightning bug. I'm just a li'l lightning bug! :oops:

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Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 10:02 pm

Kilroy wrote:

a lot of people don't
I didn't

And that was the problem. You were just going through the motions because you were forced to, which is 100% meaningless. It had to be your personal decision. And it wasn't.

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Kilroy
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29 May 2007, 10:06 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Kilroy wrote:

a lot of people don't
I didn't

And that was the problem. You were just going through the motions because you were forced to, which is 100% meaningless. It had to be your personal decision. And it wasn't.

that's right it was my dad's decision :roll:

as was most things in my life until I got to be about 16

Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 10:08 pm

calandale wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

calandale wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Do you think I believe that I understand all of God's reasons???? That would be the height of ridiculous for me to claim that! I know what I know, and I trust the rest. (All humans use that same logic device every day.)

Aye. "Merely following orders." Luckily,
even when Goering said it, it wasn't much
accepted.

You're right, except for "merely". "Merely" implies the follower has no idea why he's following.

Since you admit that you don't understand
God's reasons, THAT'S exactly what you are
saying.

Wrong, I explained many of God's reasons to you in this very conversation. But there are many more that I don't know. On a line segment AC, bisected by B (knowing enough), A being ignorance, and C being salvation, simply reading the Bible gets you from A to B, while faith then gets you from B to C. It's not all faith.

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Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 10:13 pm

Sopho wrote:

I wouldn't abide by a shedload of awful laws which the government refused to justify, just so I didn't go to prison.

Do you abide by the law of gravity? Do you respect it? Do you try and change it? If so, how do you fair? Philisophical question: Taking gravity as immutable, if you object to it, is your objection valid?

If it is found valid, is your objection then practical? Don't you have the right to challenge gravity?

(And in the end, would it matter?)

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Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 10:20 pm

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

And, lusting is indeed inherently dangerous, as we've seen from countless home-wrecking affairs -- though it's full detriment does not occur when it's just a passing thought. But, if you don't volitionally reject the passing thought, then it has damaged you.

In that case, it's not lust itself which is damaging. It's lack of self control and selfishness. Who do I harm if I look at someone and think "sh** I want to f**k them."

In my case, as a saved and re-born Christian, I'd be harming myself through lusting, going against my own enlightened conscience. But, you asked about you, so let's first assume you don't believe lusting is morally wrong. In that case, you can't harm what's dead. So, sin on, if spiritual death is a state you wish to continue in, both up to and after physical death. It won't effect me either way, in the end.

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Kilroy
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29 May 2007, 10:22 pm

how would you harm yourself threw lusting?

Beenthere
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29 May 2007, 10:26 pm

Just saw this....just saying Congratulations!! !

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calandale
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29 May 2007, 10:38 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Wrong, I explained many of God's reasons to you in this very conversation. But there are many more that I don't know. On a line segment AC, bisected by B (knowing enough), A being ignorance, and C being salvation, simply reading the Bible gets you from A to B, while faith then gets you from B to C. It's not all faith.

So, reading the Bible, and denying nearly
every word of it, would get me the same
understanding as you have?

Though I've never undertaken to read
the whole of it, certainly there are many
anti-religious folk who are as well versed
in it as many.

Somewhat to the side, does the type of
skeptical reading that I put forth put them
ahead of those who take the Bible and the
teachings of their religion (which isn't altogether
different from your faith) almost entirely on faith,
reading little more of it than I have?

calandale
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29 May 2007, 10:39 pm

BTW - I definitely don't mean to spoil your
thread, but it really does seem that you
enjoy debating your faith. I hope the
object of your affections takes as
much pleasure in discussing
these things every bit as much
as you do.

Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 11:17 pm

calandale wrote:

Quote:

Did God create Evil? I know the Catholic step around, but I'm
curious as to your view.

JonnyBGoode wrote:

God did not "create" evil. Evil is not a "thing." Evil is an absence of (or deliberate avoidance of) good, as darkness is an absence of light. In creating a good creation, and allowing for free will, God allowed for the presence of evil, just as creating light allowed for shadow to exist.

Strangely, it was not the Catholic view I was interested in,
but rather that of a man who has some very different views
on what the bible says from the dogma which MOST Christian
churches follow.

God and good are inseperable -- nothing can be good that is not of or toward God. And everything else is evil.

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Ragtime
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29 May 2007, 11:18 pm

calandale wrote:

So wait, you're saying that original sin
precedes God in some way?

No, I'm not.

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