My opinion as to "nice guys finishing last" &

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I am a total jerk and as*hole, therefore I don't need to provide you any evidence. I am out of the question =P.

I totally agree -- I hope my comments didn't come across the wrong way, I think I thought a woman said it (I didn't pay enough attention to who the quote was from, I thought it was from Miss Congeniality), so maybe they were slanted a bit in that direction -- take it more as an open question to the women on the forum in relation to what you have observed.

And yeah, you are so right -- much as we try and want it, we can't force someone to like us. It's a hard lesson all of us have learned, sometimes multiple times

All we Aspies can do is try to learn to read social cues, and to not let what we want skew how we view actual reality in terms of available partners.

Well you shouldn't pity me because despite my opinions on here, I treat all women in real life with respect, whether I'm romantically interested in them or not.

I'm just pointing out the mentality that I think a lot of nice guys feel romantically, that they can never get what they want romantically and thus feel shorted. That's what I think a lot of nice guys feel when they're rejected by girls they consider attractive and whom go after other guys.

I remember the same thing happening to me back in high school, all the girls I asked out rejected me, even one whom I cared about deeply and thought would never turn down any guy, let alone one of her best guy friends who showed that he cared about her. There was a point in time where I gave up and stopped caring, stopped pursuing/seeking relationships with women. When this occurred, girls actually came to me, but I didn't find any of them attractive at all, and thus I felt insulted that I would be rejected so many times by girls I liked, but in the end, girls I didn't find attractive came after me. Of course I acted politely to the ones who came to me and said I wasn't romantically interested, but I wouldn't mind being their friend, and I still have some of those friendships still today.

As for now, I'm skeptical of romantic "love" and I have given up this pursuit of romance, I merely posted this post because I thought I'd express why I think nice guys finish last.

My comment has nothing to do with an outward show of respect. It has to do with how you feel inside. It does not seem to me that a so-called 'nice guy' would place so much importance on looks that they would reject nice girls who were 'not attractive' and consider them sloppy seconds.

You say many guys feel shorted because they cannot get what they want romantically. Perhaps such guys should readjust their expectations.

I find such shallowness pitiable.

Me?

You know it would be nice if men were more direct....<sarcasm>

Well if it is or isn't, I'll just quote as to what I was really trying to say although you'll have to forgive me. I don't know how to quote multiple posts and I'm not very good at wording things in a precise and sequential way but her goes....

My earlier quote of Maybe some women don't want their asses kissed just to make it an obligation that she go out with this guy who's been so sweet to her. It's possible to be polite or friendly towards eachother without attraction involved. was really a poor response to the poster who had mentioned I see where you're getting at and your right. Women can't respect guys who kiss their a**. it's that simple. I'm glad I'm not in a relationship because I'd probably be one of those guys.

I don't think man or woman..that they should feel obligated or responsible to fullfill their needs if they aren't attracted to that person.


As for my post of: I would love to know if the guys who say they're nice on here, really are nice with evidence.


^That was in response to another post by MA: You said you've known many young women who are not this way. Permit me to ask, was this before you knew them or after? I think that most girls put up a cold front not to get hurt as a defensive mechanism, but once it is broken, they are friendly and pleasant. I would agree that this is all pretty subjective. However it is much easier to go with a somewhat true and accurate trend then to accept the plausibility that everyone is different in their own ways.

I have no doubt there are nice, non prejudice or non judgmental girls out there who are actually nice and kind and don't look at nice guys and think they are boring and unfit romantically. I've even met some, although personality wise, they were not my type. However, when you consider that such girls are few and that presumably girls who only are interested in thrills and macho antics instead of kindness and friendliness seem to be somewhat prominent, it is easy to stick with the big picture as opposed to thinking about the very few who seem to be actually nice, friendly gals.


I believe most of what we post here comes from personal experience, observation, and then assumptions or blunt generalizations that're put in a way that makes it fact rather than theory from that personal experience and emotion. Not everyone is ever really going to give an accurate experience that relates to the other.

I don't think people can ever really walk in eachother's shoes judging from the many posts here and blunt statements made about the other person due to their gender. Genders regarding attraction IMO don't fit into perfect boxes. There are some people who who don't fit into what another finds attractive just b/c they are of the same gender...meaning attributes. For example mitharatowen says she's attracted to personality first. I find personality attractive but the first thing I find attractive whether it's wrong or not, is how attractive that person appears to me...

As far as nice guys and bad guys go, I'm still confused. Most of the guys seem to disagree or have their own idea of what it means to be the "bad boy" who attracts a bunch of chicks VS The "nice guys" who repel chicks. I don't think most women are attracted to abusive men but women who are..well that's a long story.....

Anyway, I'm not sure if I totally agree with frienships that don't go beyond that. The guy my friend married were friends for a while at college. They're recently married. In fact I think some friendships and love are hard to define in terms of what a person wants exactly. I think it'd be easier to start up a friendship with one you feel attracted but at the same time being aware that they may not have the same feelings for you. For some people such is myself, it is not comfortable to just start dating someone I hardly know. I take it slow...maybe too slow for guys in general. So that's basically how I see it in my congenial way.

You don't have to convince me....

As much as I hate this statement, I have to agree... based on my own experience, such attempts always fail. That in and of itself would be perfectly acceptable, since everyone is entitled to their own lives, not subject to interference by others. However, in my case, when compounded with the fact that no woman would ever find me attractive to start with, that effectively eliminates all hope that I could have...

So MissConstrue: Do you AGREE with me???

I'd like to say something futher about friends and *the friend zone*. MANY idealistic people have tried to impress on me how the strongest, most lasting relationships start out as platonic friendships. What Ive concluded is that when you're young(that is, in your teens and early 20s)this is often the case. HOWEVER, what Ive discovered is that the older you get[as one exits ones teens and progresses through ones 20s and beyond], the Harder and Harder it is to forge and maintain platonic friendships with the opposite sex(for straight people). Women in particular seem to be FAR less willing to be just friends with a man once they're not in college anymore and if they're single they size men up they meet based on how sexually attractive they find such men.
IOW: Its starts to become very difficult to befriend a woman if your a man in his mid-20s and beyond because she will Often Assume that by doing so you have ulterior motives.

So unless I am in trouble all the time and don't do what is good for me, then I'm a nice guy and haven't grown up? That's garbage... just like this thread topic. No real man who has grown up would try and do things that aren't right for him just to please women or to meet some stupid contemporary stereotype of what a man should be.

MissConstrue,

Sorry about getting your name wrong -- I'm rubbing quite a bit of people the wrong way lately here due to my sloppiness in my reading habits here on the forum -- Too much stuff going on at work these days, so I'm rushing posts and making mistakes.

You make some good points above -- I think my post was more to try to highlight or rationalize some of what the "Nice guy" talk here has been about (and true enough, it has been all over the map in terms of definitions).

I also reiterate my point that men and women have different behavior at different ages, and that things do seem to even up pretty well by age 30 in terms of relationship power dynamics and dating choices.

There are some aspects I will agree as well as disagree with you as well as other members. I try not to play favorites or teams when it comes to opinions and disputes only of what is self evident of myself. Another reason I do this is humans and relationships are very complicated even for me to comprehend. I try not to subscribe to a stereotypical social type without knowing full and well what their process of thinking is as well as their initial motive or intent behind their actions. I know this because I get misinterpreted all the time for my actions and body language. I've always had trouble expressing thoughts incongruence to my actions. You can't always judge a person by the way they talk or the way they act.....



Ah, those idealistics fyi I too get annoyed with idealistic responses but sometimes one might respond from personal experience so I try not to assume. Lately I find it best not to conform to what is "suppose" to be right with the acception of being respectful to one's own perspective.

I think if you are wanting to separate friendship from sexual...I can kind of see where one would have trouble having the so-called longlasting relationships since relationships aren't always based upon sex. If it was, then the easiest way would be to have a one night stand or pay a worker for it.



I'd have to say I'm the opposite with the acception that I'm a late bloomer and that I've never been good at friendships in general. I don't have a problem with the opposite sex except for the fact when it comes to disagreements and arguments about genders lol. But these very few guys I speak of are laid back and not so wild or hormonal acting like most guys around my age and younger.



That's odd, I just recently made a friend online who's a guy. We talk on the phone a lot, I am willing to spark up any friendship if I don't feel pressured and am respected in regards to wanting space. I was the very opposite as a teen. In my teen years, I didn't get along very well with guys...that's not to say exclusively females. In fact I wonder if I'm sort of outgrowing some of the extreme aspie-ish behavior I once had. That's not to say I've become NT or even near as social as NTs. I just feel a lot more comfortable and accepting to my quirkiness than I once did. Most of my friendships and relationships had a lot to do with not only my lack in peer social skills but also self-esteem issues. Then again, as a teen I knew nothing about aspergers or was ever diagnosed thus no support sites of those who I could relate to in ways that were hard to describe.



Well for me, I don't like to be pushed into things I don't want to do and try to make that clear. I use to try and be polite about whatever feelings a guy had toward me so I never really set up my boundaries or knew how to be truthful in a polite fashion. I know now, there is no real polite way of rejecting someone when you don't feel the same way they feel about you.

And don't assume it's the guys that get all the rejecting. I too have been rejected and I know how bad it hurts. In fact it makes it hard to be friends with that person after you've openly express having feelings for them. I think it will always be this way with genders of the opposite sex when some form of attraction is involved.

All I was saying is that bad boys have desirable traits; not that you should be one. It's clearly as important for a bad boy to outgrow his reckless & destructive behavior as it is for a nice guy to outgrow his passiveness. Of course, while keeping thier good traits too.

Last edited by deadeyexx on 25 Feb 2009, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Of course nice guys finish last... a nice guy cares about his girlfriend's pleasure, so he makes sure that she "finishes" first...

Well I don't know if you're a guy or a girl, but based on your reply, I would safely assume you're a female, since your answer had some emotional undertones to it. Therefore I can understand your disgust at my rather blunt observations, but what I say has an element of truth to it, whether it is pleasant or downright insensitive. However it is a fact, or if not a fact an extremely accurate trend, that guys will only want and desire the females they find the most attractive physically. This is the whole premise of why guys are attracted to women physically- replication value, to find the most attractive females they can find to live with and start a family with. It is not about an "emotional connection" or the sentimental feelings that women buy into, men look for attractive women because of their physical attributes which are geared sexually.

Now there are some guys who are the exceptions to this, but very few, men generally do view things sexually as opposed to emotionally, like women do. Now I don't look at a woman and say "ha cha cha" and think of her sexually, if she is physically attractive, I am attracted to her beauty like a moth to a flame.
Nice guys are the same way, physical beauty allures them, while plainness repulses them. I'm not saying nice guys are after sex either, a lot of them aren't after it, but the whole principle of physical attraction is extremely strong in males. Girls can overlook a guy's physical unattractiveness or flaws is they can connect to them on an emotional level or perceive the male to have an emotional connection with them. Guys, with rare exceptions, will not overlook a female's physical flaws and still find her as attractive or desirable.

I can't speak for all guys when I used my "pizza" example, but as a guy myself, I can see where it would occur with any other guy, especially if they were unsuccessful pursuing females romantically and ended up having girls they were not interested in coming after him. Guys might deny that they'd feel the same way, but I'm sure they'd feel the same way, they'd just disguise their disappointment in pleasantries.

Then I must be a "rare exception," because I'm actually able to overlook physical flaws in women. I've found that I become more attracted to a less attractive girl if she displays kindness. I won't lie and say that looks don't affect my attraction at all, but your pseudo-Darwinian theories about men only going after the women they find the most physically attractive don't apply to me. Frankly, I'm insulted by the implication that men are some kind of sex robots. And I've seen PLENTY of less attractive couples who disprove this notion. "Accurate trend" my bionic bum!

Blaming your bad luck with women on your hormones is a pitiful excuse. Ultimately, it's your choice not to do what is reasonable. Perhaps in time, you will come to realize, like most people who find their life partners, that you will have to re-evaluate your criteria. Until then, by making such a big deal out of looks, you are being just as shallow as the women who won't date "nice guys."

Last edited by Cyberman on 26 Feb 2009, 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, doing the reasonable thing doesn't work for a lot of us, hence threads such as this.