I need to know why society think its ok to lie?

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OK time for me to put my own two cents/pence/yen/milligrams of gold/whatever currency you wish to use:

It seems the 'battle' in this thread is between the people who don't seem to question why things are the way they are and the others who would like to know why and believe the world would be better off in the long-run if people just always the truth (if that is indeed all it's about).

I take the position of the latter. I understand that the best position in life to take is to just take things as it is and not think about how things should be but I can't seem to shake that 'should' thing. Anyone on here with AS likely knows how analytical we can be. Funny thing is most of the simple things we learn and question as a child are all perfectly valid. When you lie as a kid and your parent find out then asks why you lied and mentions that just telling the truth from the beginning is better than lying, wouldn't you expect [the vast majority of] adult life to be the same too? Also, what ever happened to treating people how you wish to be treated? Golden Rule anyone?

As far as how what I mentioned relates to this thread, my opinion is that when someone says they want to be 'just friends' or 'friends', I would expect it to be only used when they are interested in the person still as a friend and should never be used if the person saying it truly is not interested, as that can easily cause confusion. I have had this happen to me a number of times in my life, particularly with women that knew ahead of time that I was interested in them, and often wonder if any women that say that really mean it. I come off as nice, intelligent, and likeable, yet I too have not had a single date or even a kiss yet besides a small peck on the cheek by someone I assume must've felt sorry for me at that point in time. I don't look like a monster or perfect either and am not overweight. Sure there are a couple of things that need fixing (money to get a decent health plan in this country being the reason they haven't already been fixed) being the issue as to but isn't that true with everyone anyway?

I have met people that I initially and am still interested in as more than friends but would be willing to be just friends with me as friendship with them is valuable and much could be learnt between us, but if someone says they want to be friends and then appear to be trying to avoid me afterwards, I see that as a red flag but it can be confusing because even though they may appear to be avoiding me, they may not be in actuality.

I feel like I'm going in circles. Bottom line: we as human beings that are more capable than animals should strive to be honest no matter the cost because in the long-run, we as a whole will all benefit. Also, treat people the way you wish to be treated. Full-stop.

Insofar as trust is a human notion, I suppose that's true, but we aren't the only ones capable of deception.

KenM

Do you have any friends that arn't exes? (I'll say this again. Being a friend with your ex is a huge mistake, so don't do it if you want to forget and move on! I mean, I could, but not people like you, because it just makes it fester eternaly for fellows like you.) I think that's where you really have an actual need, is good hard core attention. It has to be lacking somewhere for you to want love that much. Just my oppinion. Chill with a friend at least twice a week. It does amasing things for the mind. No, I don't mean touching needs to be involved. You want some understanding, right?

ps. I think singlehood is awsome, and should be enjoyed to it's fullest, because your horniest desires will bitched about by any mate who doesn't get you.

"OMG... OMG... He's watching porn! 'cringes' Am I not sexy enough in bed?"
"OH NO! He's looking at a nude calendar. Is he cheating?" Paranoia.

Dishonesty is how the NT language works.

There's no "right" or "wrong" in this, and the concept of it being wrong to lie, is an NT basic language concept - ground into the heads of children at a young age, as a foundation to start on. But those children are then expected to build on that, and understand (according to NT language conventions) that some kinds of lying are correct and "right", and other kinds are "wrong".

This is the difference between lying and "white lies". Lying is still wrong. But telling the truth in a situation where you should be telling a white lie is equally wrong because it is being hurtful.

This is why girls have lied to you about not wanting to date. They are actually doing the right thing as they have been taught, and trying to spare your feelings. This means that they respect you enough as a person to do the right thing by you, and if they had been straight out honest (*unless* they were an aspie, or deviant from the norm), then that would mean that they had no respect for you at all - and just flat out wanted to hurt you.

That makes sense. I guess that is what certain guys do, too. I can remember asking a guy out, and him saying yes, but then proceeding to outline all of his social obligations for the coming week. When I realized that I had been "let down gently," I was hurt, but also glad that he hadn't been unkind about it.

How is it respect when I tell them FLAT OUT "be straight with me, no lies, be honest. Don't sugar coat it, tell me you still want to be friends when you don't mean it. " But they still do just that respect? When I ask them to tell the truth and they still lie to my face, sounds like respect and treating me right.


I do hang out with friends a couple of times a week.

Hey, the NTs probably get just as frustrated with us Aspies and Auties, with us demanding the truth all the time, when they obviously have an entirely different concept of what the truth is.

Last edited by hartzofspace on 11 Apr 2009, 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There have been times where I flat out tell a woman I was asking out that she should just ask me to leave, and I would... I still got it "sugar-coated"... I think I'm starting to get a stomach ache from all this sugar-coating...

I'll tell you something, NT's lie, a lot. They lie to avoid commitments, to avoid humilliation, and to boost their social status.
Don't always believe when they say something amazing "you see that girl, last week I boned her good man" , probably a lie. Depends on your social status, if they see you are a bit naive and don't know a lot of people they will lie to you about all those amazing things they have done to boost their self-esteem a bit. Saying this, you should lie too, you build your social personna, if nothing happens to you, you are automatically boring, naive or innocent. Lie lie lie, but never get caught, that means don't go overboard. Say you kissed this girl, or that girl, say are enjoying something even if you're don't (unless the other person obviously is not enjoying it and wants you to say no), lie and say you like a gift, or that something is fun, think your answers well. ACT LIKE YOU KNOW.

I've found it a lot easier just to be honest. As Mark Twain once said, "When you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." If you make a habit of lying, you have to keep track of what you told who. This can get really complicated, and unless you're very good at it, you may get a reputation for being a liar.

I think its pretty black and white. If you lie to someone you don't respect them. IE: "please don't lie when I ask you this. Is the sky blue?" Then they answer "no, its green. But I just said that not to hurt your feelings."



Besides, I'm diabetic, all this sugar coating is not good for me, LOL.

So asking them repeatedly has had no effect? So that leaves accepting that others will act of their own accord, that you cannot control what they do, and focus on controlling your response and being aware of their limitations... or allowing the anger to overwhelm you so that you do not make any further attempts in that regard. If I'm missing an option, please let me know... but I know for myself, the latter isn't a choice I can accept - the former wins out for me.


M.

I never said I keep asking them more then once. I tell them one time how I feel. Then I feel they mislead me and I never see them again.

I am VERY aware of my limitations, I have AS and take what people say literaly. I ALWAYS tell them I need them to be honest and not mislead me before I tell them how I feel. Once they know I need them to be honest and then they still mislead me and lie, it shows they don't respect me as a person. Once you tell someone about your special needs, its on them to be honest. But they say "screw him, I'm going to lie to let him down easy anyway."

Last edited by KenM on 11 Apr 2009, 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The repeatedly was meant in reference to multiple people, but you bring up a good point - you say something once and expect another person to govern all their actions from that comment for the rest of their lives when interacting with you? Not reasonable, in my estimation, though I would welcome the opinions and input of others. The persona you show here, KenM, is very inflexible - if you behave the same with others, do you think that intolerance is an attractive quality? Just curious... I am not trying to be insulting or a prat, but trying to understand how you perceive things and what your process is.


M.

No offense taken. I feel I am honest with everyone. I always treat people with repsect and rememeber how the person treats me. So yes I expect the same back. If you are honest and sincere, thats what you get back. If I feel you are misleading and decetful I will have nothing to do with you. As I have said before I have had women tell me straght up that they are not interested in me at all and I have no ill will toward them because they respected me enough to be honest with me.

Is it possible that your definition of misleading is different than the standards of others? Your interactions with others are not likely to be successful if you continue to have expectations of them behaving to your whims and desires... and attempting them to conform to those needs or wants will likely end up pushing them further away. People are poor material for sculpture.


M.