28 May 2020, 8:27 am
Teach51 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I used to think women disliked me. And it was true.
In basic terms, I had to make changes....and I did, to a certain extent. It was made easier by me acquiring more life experience and learning hard lessons.
I am still far from perfect. I’m still a fool in some ways. But I made myself more palatable in my foolishness. I became a court jester who has the ear of the queen, rather than a doormat target.
In basic terms, I had to make changes....and I did, to a certain extent. It was made easier by me acquiring more life experience and learning hard lessons.
I am still far from perfect. I’m still a fool in some ways. But I made myself more palatable in my foolishness. I became a court jester who has the ear of the queen, rather than a doormat target.
You had the courage to self-examine and adapt to the best of your understanding and ability. Others prefer to barricade themselves in a vault of cynicism and statistics, probably because they have been hurt too much in the past to even try anymore (* I am referring to my own relationship here). There are those who also are incapable of change neurologically I have come to believe. It is, after all, a spectrum.
Is it possible to change a person's neurological configuration?
I mean,
Without a pick-axe.
kraftiekortie wrote:
I honestly feel like you have some Spectrum in you, Cyberdad. I don’t see you as a full-throttle NT.
Don’t take that as an insult.
There is a stubbornness in you that seems rather Aspie to me.
And no....being on the Spectrum is not like having leprosy.
Don’t take that as an insult.
There is a stubbornness in you that seems rather Aspie to me.
And no....being on the Spectrum is not like having leprosy.
Really?
I was under the impression a form of personality disorder was involved.
kraftiekortie wrote:
I used to think women disliked me. And it was true.
In basic terms, I had to make changes....and I did, to a certain extent. It was made easier by me acquiring more life experience and learning hard lessons.
I am still far from perfect. I’m still a fool in some ways. But I made myself more palatable in my foolishness. I became a court jester who has the ear of the queen, rather than a doormat target.
In basic terms, I had to make changes....and I did, to a certain extent. It was made easier by me acquiring more life experience and learning hard lessons.
I am still far from perfect. I’m still a fool in some ways. But I made myself more palatable in my foolishness. I became a court jester who has the ear of the queen, rather than a doormat target.
OI!
There is room for only one village idiot on this website.
Last edited by Pepe on 28 May 2020, 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
28 May 2020, 8:31 am
28 May 2020, 8:38 am
28 May 2020, 8:39 am
kraftiekortie wrote:
People can adjust, even if the neurology cannot change.
There is also "Brain Plasticity"/Neuroplasticity to consider.
But unless your brain is still in development mode, an ice pick may still be necessary.
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Yeah, the amount of armchair psychology here is laughable.
I have a leather swivel chair.
28 May 2020, 8:54 am
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
If I was an aspie man here's what I would do:
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
Yup,
Religious women may be easier pickings.
My first "girlfriend" was driven by compassion, through her religious indoctrination.
I would also recommend hobby courses and interest groups such as logic classes, bushwalking or arts and crafts, etc, after the CV event.
In the past, I have recommended local autism groups.
Joining an activity which is of interest to "you" is a possible win-win situation.
Hobby courses are expensive. I’d rather spend $300 on console I can use for years then on one pot making class.
I totally agree.
A console is a much better investment than an erky perky girl-germ infested girlfriend.
Much, much, much cheaper also.
Eh I didn’t say that. But paying $300 for hobby class won’t lead to a gf. Any women there would likely see I work min wage and pass. So I’d be throwing money away.
I see you have a defeatist attitude.
*That's* the spirit!
Gurlies like to dance.
Have you considered investing in a pink tutu and white pantyhose?
I don't think that costs anywhere near $US300.
There are other activities that don't cost a lot on money.
Bushwalking, for instance.
Join Extinction Rebellion and wear some "Puppy Dog" eyes, while saving the planet.
The progressive women luv that sort of thing.
Or, as 51(?) said, help out at a soup kitchen for homless people.
Easy peasy.
I live in real world everything cost money. Nothings free.
I’m in a city without a car(cost money) I can’t get to the forest to bush walk.
There’s no volunteer work in my city and to get to the next city takes hours and cost money. I’m not going spend hours on bus to volunteer and cost me money.
What about on-line activity groups?
Not dating sites.
BTW,
Has *anyone* on this website ever found a significant-other?
Tyranny of distances?
28 May 2020, 8:55 am
28 May 2020, 9:10 am
28 May 2020, 9:22 am
Teach51 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
That's alright, I know that. Good things can still happen if you are an atheist.
Rational things happen when one is an atheist.
I'm rational
I just don't believe in randomality. I don't believe in religion either.Most of us have fantasies.
I'm not "Most People".
28 May 2020, 4:44 pm
LunaticCentruroides wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
LunaticCentruroides wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
LunaticCentruroides wrote:
I wouldn't generalize it as well.. If I read your first post, I would also think it could be more something you are sending out with your presence/bodylanguage or how you are talking/behaving. Something you don't notice and they do. Maybe you send out a lot of insecurities which could possibly lead to a "turn-off" of these women.
I don't know you, so it's hard to analyze directly what it could be. But it seems to be something that happens at the "first impression" already. I'm a girl with aspergers myself and I dated men without and even men with aspergers.. So you aren't automatiaclly non-attractive with this condition. And besides that I know a lot of guys with aspergers... Some are more popular in the world of women and some seem to struggle with the same thing as you do. But each of them have an individual "problem" which leads to this dilemma.
I don't know you, so it's hard to analyze directly what it could be. But it seems to be something that happens at the "first impression" already. I'm a girl with aspergers myself and I dated men without and even men with aspergers.. So you aren't automatiaclly non-attractive with this condition. And besides that I know a lot of guys with aspergers... Some are more popular in the world of women and some seem to struggle with the same thing as you do. But each of them have an individual "problem" which leads to this dilemma.
Watch the autistic girls in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwEH9Ui4HV8&t=98s
Yes they have idiosyncrasies but are easily able to find an NT man who is going to say the cliched "you don't look autistic". Flip the script and they were males their problems would be scrutinised 100x worse for any minor tic or imperfection.
I agree with you. I'd say males struggle more. As girl it may be not that hard to find a man and I've heard "you don't look autistic" thousands of times as well. But I don't get why you tell me this..? And yeah I know this video you posted very well
The reason I asked you is so you could validate my point, As an NT everybody is suspicious about what I say on this forum, whereas coming from you it might initiate others to explore/engage further.
But ultimately I am trying to motivate Sly to seek female friends on the internet.
Sorry but english is not my motherlanguage, perhaps I might not understand everything
So is that what you are saying something positive or negative? What do you want me to do?? I was just talking about my exerience. I've known so many people and guys with AS in reallife, many friends as well, so yeah...
Who is Sly? lol..You already have
28 May 2020, 4:47 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
I honestly feel like you have some Spectrum in you, Cyberdad. I don’t see you as a full-throttle NT.
Don’t take that as an insult.
There is a stubbornness in you that seems rather Aspie to me.
And no....being on the Spectrum is not like having leprosy.
Don’t take that as an insult.
There is a stubbornness in you that seems rather Aspie to me.
And no....being on the Spectrum is not like having leprosy.
28 May 2020, 7:54 pm
Teach51 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
The evolution of this thread has totally baffled me, this is partly because not being an aspie obviously my thought processing and experience of life is totally different. It suddenly dawned on me what is lacking in these threads.
There are lengthy lamentations regarding demographics and statistics and you all have entangled me in that mindset, so I started thinking which professional women would be compatible with aspies, how you would meet good women but then I realised what was lacking.
Finding a woman, where, how, what nationality is really not the issue.
The common denominator that the married aspies or those in a long term relationship share here, K, Bender, Kraftie, Fnord, you know who they all are, they all have the capacity to project their caring on to others, relate to others lives, express empathy in their own way, overcome difficulties and maintain a long term intimate relationship.
A long term relationship is similar to a career, it's easy enough to begin but sustaining it is the hard part.
Finding the right woman is not like an acquisition, it's not like buying a new computer, finding the right price, design and performance. You order it, bring it home, mission accomplished. Noooooo. A woman wants and needs many things beyond the material aspects of life. So much more.
I am guessing Fnord and Bender and all the guys that have been encouraging the younger guys here for years have said it in every possible way.
I wanted to be a nurse when I was a girl. That was my objective. That was not enough. . That is just a desire . Next I had to convert my desire into a practical strategy. So I went to nursing school, studied anatomy and physiology, all the necessary stuff I am really bad at understanding, I actually hate science because my mind is so disorganised and I have a severe learning disability, but I invested 4 years to achieve my goal. I had to force myself to internalize all these strategies and analyses that my mind refused to understand and process efficiently. A bit like aspies and emotional communication perhaps?
Wanting a relationship will not bring you nearer to having a successful one, it's just a desire, it requires implementing a plan of action in order to fulfill this desire.
Maintaining a relationship requires the ability to feel that another human being is as important as yourself, to think outside yourself make them feel appreciated and valued, learn how to listen and understand them, learn how to adapt to sharing your time and your space. If you begin to do this then your whole experience of human interaction will change, women will sense that you are emotionally present and be able to connect with you. They will find substance to connect to emotionally. Try and develop expressing the care that you feel so deeply internally into an external verbal expression of feeling, even if it is just memorizing phrases that suit the moment. Learn to ask questions if you have no idea how to interpret what your partner is feeling so that they can sense you care. Learn to verbalize your feelings more.
This all demands a great investment of time, effort and determination to achieve your goal but it will assist you in every interpersonal interaction. Nothing suddenly materializes just because we want it, learn how to make the emotional connection in your own unique way, if you can.
I promise to let this go now and keep my perhaps misguided advice to myself.
There are lengthy lamentations regarding demographics and statistics and you all have entangled me in that mindset, so I started thinking which professional women would be compatible with aspies, how you would meet good women but then I realised what was lacking.
Finding a woman, where, how, what nationality is really not the issue.
The common denominator that the married aspies or those in a long term relationship share here, K, Bender, Kraftie, Fnord, you know who they all are, they all have the capacity to project their caring on to others, relate to others lives, express empathy in their own way, overcome difficulties and maintain a long term intimate relationship.
A long term relationship is similar to a career, it's easy enough to begin but sustaining it is the hard part.
Finding the right woman is not like an acquisition, it's not like buying a new computer, finding the right price, design and performance. You order it, bring it home, mission accomplished. Noooooo. A woman wants and needs many things beyond the material aspects of life. So much more.
I am guessing Fnord and Bender and all the guys that have been encouraging the younger guys here for years have said it in every possible way.
I wanted to be a nurse when I was a girl. That was my objective. That was not enough. . That is just a desire . Next I had to convert my desire into a practical strategy. So I went to nursing school, studied anatomy and physiology, all the necessary stuff I am really bad at understanding, I actually hate science because my mind is so disorganised and I have a severe learning disability, but I invested 4 years to achieve my goal. I had to force myself to internalize all these strategies and analyses that my mind refused to understand and process efficiently. A bit like aspies and emotional communication perhaps?
Wanting a relationship will not bring you nearer to having a successful one, it's just a desire, it requires implementing a plan of action in order to fulfill this desire.
Maintaining a relationship requires the ability to feel that another human being is as important as yourself, to think outside yourself make them feel appreciated and valued, learn how to listen and understand them, learn how to adapt to sharing your time and your space. If you begin to do this then your whole experience of human interaction will change, women will sense that you are emotionally present and be able to connect with you. They will find substance to connect to emotionally. Try and develop expressing the care that you feel so deeply internally into an external verbal expression of feeling, even if it is just memorizing phrases that suit the moment. Learn to ask questions if you have no idea how to interpret what your partner is feeling so that they can sense you care. Learn to verbalize your feelings more.
This all demands a great investment of time, effort and determination to achieve your goal but it will assist you in every interpersonal interaction. Nothing suddenly materializes just because we want it, learn how to make the emotional connection in your own unique way, if you can.
I promise to let this go now and keep my perhaps misguided advice to myself.
Never felt empathy or compassion from fnord.
Are you trying to say the reason I’m alone is cause I’m not like them?
I’m one of the most empathic , caring loving person you could meet. I don’t even hurt bugs. The other thing all the people you listed have in common is they work full time good jobs.
I’ve been told I’d be the perfect bf by women. I don’t think I’d have issue sustaining a relationship. I just can’t get a f*****g chance. No woman will, give me a chance. I can’t get dates. Women don’t even let me talk to them, if I can’t get dates then I’ll never get a relationship. So Please don’t judge me as not able to sustain a relationship I have all the qualities to do so more so then most men. But I not good enough cause I work min wage part time.
I would like to add to what sly said about Fnord.
His advice he usually gives is pure, unadulterated crap. It is extremely vague and overly-simplistic. It is like a person being told to move out if he has a problem with his parents rules yet he is not given any guidance or help to come up with a comprehensive plan to do that.
The man sees himself as this objective scientist but what he really does is called scientism. He is sort of like James Randi in a way. Randi has done excellent work in exposing frauds but Randi like Fnord in his skepticism has become fanatics and science and the scientific method has become a sort of a quasi-religion in a sense. B/c of this it becomes possible to dismiss relevant data.
He can't conceive that scientists themselves are human beings filled with their own biases and their own agendas. You have science and the scientist the human himself.
By the way, the CIA did confirm there is an area 51. No UFOs or aliens but it is and was a secret military base. Those like Fnord and Randi denied this for years.
The problem with Fnord's way of thinking is that it never considers new possibilities. It does not allow one to think outside of the current paradigm. Fnord, is what I would call super-adjusted to reality. There is no imagination. Sort of like the Houyhnhnms of Gulliver's Travels.
Fnord from my point of view can't even conceive of other modes of thinking. To me, this whole faith thing and this whole mindset (positive) influencing or making reality makes no sense but what if there was a grain of truth to it? Is there at least one possibility in which it could work? Sort of those who say we can't go past the speed of light b/c as one goes faster one more and more mass and it would take more thrust to push that mass. (I think that is what it is). My thinking is why can't one prevent things from gaining mass? How does gaining mass work? Why do things gain mass as they speed up? These are the things he never even thinks to question and answer.
So, his thinking is stuck in a paradigm of simply stating that the world system simply exists and we must adjust ourselves accordingly. No questioning at all. No thinking outside of the whole dynamic itself. We must accept it b/c it simply is and adjust accordingly. But, if we all did as he said to do then how can we as human beings progress into something better? His worldview is a view that stagnates.
I stand corrected. Hurtloam is correct, I don't have a full grasp of the reality of what aspies deal with. Regarding Fnord I know some of you have a hard time with his approach, I also do at times, I think that his practical advice is sound for the most part, he just messes up in delivering the message.
Sly, my post was not directed at you but rather related to my own aspie and the struggles he has with our relationship. I also stated that the depth of feeling exists but is not always
communicated outwards clearly and effectively, This is my experience from my own relationship. I have reached the conclusion that I can never understand how incredibly difficult life in America is, the society dictates are so different to those I am familiar with.
Cube, how are you doing in China? Are you happy there?
I'm very happy and I do hope everything works out with the transfer of dependent visa to work visa. But, due to the corona virus I'm not so sure.
Take a look at this video.
No, Fnord is not crude like Ross and he doesn't attack people's manhood on here yet other then these two things he talks in the same way as Ross. Ross says a lot yet says absolutely nothing. No analysis on what these guys are doing wrong at all. And, no instruction at all. There is no substance to what Ross or Fnord says at all.
There is no soundness to his advice because there is no substance. If I was one of these guys I would be pissed off to. It would be different if Ross called me all sorts of names and gave real instruction and advice with substance and specifics yet he does not. He curses the people out and uses some stupid and vague acronym that means and says absolutely nothing. Fnord is Ross without all the cursing and name calling and the degrading of one's manhood and all of the windbaggery.
Ross says nothing.
Fnord says nothing.
Ross's advice is s**t.
Fnord's advice is s**t.
Ross is a windbag and so are those like him whether they curse, name call and degrade one's manhood or not. Truth is, when windbags are thoroughly questioned they're very good at deflection, name calling, blame shifting, etc.
There are people who are untalkative and reserved which is the opposite of Ross but when they speak there words are still empty and devoid of any substance. People want to treat their words (since they rarely say anything) as having profound wisdom yet they really are not. The words are as empty as the windbag.
RetroGamer87
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,077
Location: Adelaide, Australia
28 May 2020, 8:46 pm
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
If I was an aspie man here's what I would do:
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
Yup,
Religious women may be easier pickings.
My first "girlfriend" was driven by compassion, through her religious indoctrination.
I would also recommend hobby courses and interest groups such as logic classes, bushwalking or arts and crafts, etc, after the CV event.
In the past, I have recommended local autism groups.
Joining an activity which is of interest to "you" is a possible win-win situation.
Hobby courses are expensive. I’d rather spend $300 on console I can use for years then on one pot making class.
I totally agree.
A console is a much better investment than an erky perky girl-germ infested girlfriend.
Much, much, much cheaper also.
Eh I didn’t say that. But paying $300 for hobby class won’t lead to a gf. Any women there would likely see I work min wage and pass. So I’d be throwing money away.
I see you have a defeatist attitude.
*That's* the spirit!
Gurlies like to dance.
Have you considered investing in a pink tutu and white pantyhose?
I don't think that costs anywhere near $US300.
Ballet is an excellent hobby but it's not cheap. Imagine having to buy special shoes that wear out really quickly.
28 May 2020, 9:16 pm
Karamazov wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Who's Karamazov btw?
Dunno mate
I don’t like the sound of him.
I mean, what type of pretentious weirdo goes round naming themselves after nineteenth century novels?
______________________
Thanks for kind words teach
... think I may have to blush for a spot.
He does come across as a little "Ego Driven".
Last edited by Pepe on 28 May 2020, 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
28 May 2020, 9:21 pm
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
If I was an aspie man here's what I would do:
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
Yup,
Religious women may be easier pickings.
My first "girlfriend" was driven by compassion, through her religious indoctrination.
I would also recommend hobby courses and interest groups such as logic classes, bushwalking or arts and crafts, etc, after the CV event.
In the past, I have recommended local autism groups.
Joining an activity which is of interest to "you" is a possible win-win situation.
Hobby courses are expensive. I’d rather spend $300 on console I can use for years then on one pot making class.
I totally agree.
A console is a much better investment than an erky perky girl-germ infested girlfriend.
Much, much, much cheaper also.
Eh I didn’t say that. But paying $300 for hobby class won’t lead to a gf. Any women there would likely see I work min wage and pass. So I’d be throwing money away.
I see you have a defeatist attitude.
*That's* the spirit!
Gurlies like to dance.
Have you considered investing in a pink tutu and white pantyhose?
I don't think that costs anywhere near $US300.
There are other activities that don't cost a lot on money.
Bushwalking, for instance.
Join Extinction Rebellion and wear some "Puppy Dog" eyes, while saving the planet.
The progressive women luv that sort of thing.
Or, as 51(?) said, help out at a soup kitchen for homless people.
Easy peasy.
I live in real world everything cost money. Nothings free.
I’m in a city without a car(cost money) I can’t get to the forest to bush walk.
There’s no volunteer work in my city and to get to the next city takes hours and cost money. I’m not going spend hours on bus to volunteer and cost me money.
You don't have to be religious to enjoy the company of religious groups.
Please don't tell me your area is religion free.
28 May 2020, 10:05 pm
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
If I was an aspie man here's what I would do:
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
I would go and volunteer in an animal shelter, or if I was religious I would do something to help the needy that was affiliated to my place of worship or some other cause I was passionate about requiring compassion and empathy . I would express my compassion in a practical sense if I couldn't verbalize it. I would think there would be a fair amount of smart, caring women volunteering also who I could get to know more than superficially for a lengthy period of interaction who would grow to love, my aspie attributes.
That's what I would do.
Yup,
Religious women may be easier pickings.
My first "girlfriend" was driven by compassion, through her religious indoctrination.
I would also recommend hobby courses and interest groups such as logic classes, bushwalking or arts and crafts, etc, after the CV event.
In the past, I have recommended local autism groups.
Joining an activity which is of interest to "you" is a possible win-win situation.
Hobby courses are expensive. I’d rather spend $300 on console I can use for years then on one pot making class.
I totally agree.
A console is a much better investment than an erky perky girl-germ infested girlfriend.
Much, much, much cheaper also.
Eh I didn’t say that. But paying $300 for hobby class won’t lead to a gf. Any women there would likely see I work min wage and pass. So I’d be throwing money away.
I see you have a defeatist attitude.
*That's* the spirit!
Gurlies like to dance.
Have you considered investing in a pink tutu and white pantyhose?
I don't think that costs anywhere near $US300.
Ballet is an excellent hobby but it's not cheap. Imagine having to buy special shoes that wear out really quickly.
Erm.
29 May 2020, 1:55 am
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Who's Karamazov btw?
Dunno mate
I don’t like the sound of him.
I mean, what type of pretentious weirdo goes round naming themselves after nineteenth century novels?
______________________
Thanks for kind words teach
... think I may have to blush for a spot.
He does come across as a little "Ego Driven".
Now I have an image of a little man in my head cackling hysterically whilst jabbing buttons and pulling levers at random.
Makes about as much sense as anything else
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