Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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First let me say i'm glad I couldn't sleep tonite because this thread has made me smile:)

Ok to the person who posted the above... you are partially right and partially wrong

Here is the secret for all you men who are apparently sitting up nites upset because us wemon are terrible people who want what did you say masculan , jerks lol (ok first off i spell terribley)

When we are younger say teens to probably mid twenties we are in fact more often seen with the jerks but the reason isn't because we want to be wild or we want a certain type or because we're treated like crap. The simple fact is that we at that age are very insecure or shy, we want to be approached not the other way around and these types of men are on the prowl just ready to swoop us up. contrary to your beliefs guys they arn't jerks to us in the beginning or we'd walk away, instead they are very good at pretending to be great people and as someone else pointed out they are really good at making us believe they genuinly care. Also in that age frame life and whatever social circles we are part of push us toward this type of person "what would they think if we went for so and so"

Ok so fast forward now to as someone said the biological age and that is so terribly funny!! ! I can't imagine suddenly going for the nice guy so i could reproduce but anyway.. When the switch goes off in our heads often times it's at that time and sometimes even after we've had kids and a life and have finally reached the point in our lives where we evaluate and say 'what was I thinking'

In all those years tho what we wanted was simply someone who would listen, laugh with us, and who shared in the things we enjoyed doing.

Remember too that just as every one of you is different in your personalities, likes and dislikes so are wemon and you are right there are some really self centered wemon out there ... my sister is one she will base a relationship on the job, car, house and money the man has she is also been unhappy for most of her adult life. Some wemon however could care less about all that.

The trick guys is to find someone who shares and enjoys the things you do. Who you can laugh with because laughter above all is what keeps a relationship together and dont worry so much about the ones who hurt you.. chances are your better off.

just as a note.. not all nice wemon are ugly lol it's about 50/50 on that as well good luck

That trait isn't limited to women, nor even to humans. Regardless of the species, more desirable individuals in monogamous species hold out for better mates.

I don't believe you could define the "nice guy" archetype generally.
I would say a nice guy, shy guy could share some qualities are can also be distinctly different. What I interpret as nice is a gentleman, who treats his suitor with respect, is conscience of and effortlessly satisfies emotional, physical needs. The other descriptors you used I would have to debate with, but really who can operationally define "nice guy", I guess we would have to take a nation wide census.
Some people are desperate and that is understandable because being alone along time can do that to you, many people crave human touch and emotion and when you can't have it, it is like not having water or food, shelter. There are also some that are entirely content without it, IE. Sheldon.
Whether you realize it or not there is a trade off of some degree in all relationships but parasitic / gold digging relationship lead to nowhere. I totally agree with you, if you try too much then you get nothing, rejection, or worse, "the friend zone".

I would have to disagree with you to a certain extent. You said when women are younger they are seen more with jecks because the are at the age that they are very insecure or shy, these types of guys (jerks) are on the prowl and ready to swoop women up. This is partially true I know alot of "nice guys" that would talk to women yet they would always choose the jerk, the hotter one, the one with more connections..... etc... I think that this "shy and insecure" thing is an excuse for the reality that we have no choice in the matter women can do and be as picky as they want and that's it.
Just like when at concert's women through their panty's on stage, there are groupies, well there are groupies for very attractive, wealthy and powerful men, especially in the younger years. I will agree that the jerks that are successful are because the are very cunning, great pretenders but it two guys were pretending and were equally verbally stimulating or equally pretended to be serious, the woman would choose the more attractive one and in most cases would never choose the unattractive one. I do agree that you are pushed in social circles, social pressures, yet that plays a small role because in most cases women are conscience of that.

Biological Clock is funny but in many women it does exist and take over thoughts, shifts goals, but this biological clock had lessened over the years with the advent of career women, for many women power is more attractive than men and family,
you said in all of the years you just wanted someone to listen, laugh, share things you enjoy, honestly did you feel as adamant about that as you do now years ago?
In my experience this isn't true amongst, 99% of all the women I have ever met aged 18-25, I have traveled to 19 countries, attended 14 schools, lived in five different states, the ones that did were in meaningful relationships and taken.

I agree that the trick is to find a woman who cares and values me for me but that could take a very long time sitting and waiting for that to happen especially considering that there are more men than women in America during the ages of dating & reproduction. 50% have kids .............................................................

I totally agree with you, the only way to defy this law of nature is by providing a substantial environment that would entice the attractive species to commit. IE money, fame, wealth, power, looks,

This is my take exactly. There are nice guys, and there are Nice Guys®.

http://moderateleft.com/?p=3763

Your right to a point I can say honestly most of the men I dated till about 22 were the hotties...but again i think the whole peer group social stuff comes in to play a lot here. Or the fact that the shy or nicer one altho they did talk to me a lot and become my friend were slower to the draw sometimes and the other ones ask first ... this could tho also define the very thing that made them nice and someone that today I would pay more attention to. They were taking the time to actually get to know me (somthing us girls dont really realize untill later in life)

Of course i also grew up in an area that was primarily rural and so naturally some other factors that maybe exist within larger cities didn't come in to play.??



Again your right but not very often do you have equaliy stimulating opponants.. if you did however yes you'd choose the one you were more attracted to.



believe it or not this one plays a huge role for the younger woman. Status and appearance seems to be everything in relation to who accepts or keeps you in their circles. sad but true:(



Back then I was a cheerleader, I ran track, I was into a lot of different things so yes the football player and the cheerleader senario made more sense than the cheerleader and the computer guy... not sure if that makes sense. I've always loved laughter and so someone who was less whitty wouldn't have appealed. And yes wemon young or old are emotional beings so someone who listened was very important back then.....Now a days there are more qualities needed lol like patience, understanding, ability to be kind to my children the list could really get complicated or long:)



so they did exist??? Thats my point not all are shallow altho some are. Not all may have realized the nicer guy was even flirting but as these same girls got older their values and what they wanted in life changed from things like social status and materials to fullfillment and actual love.

I was actually really great friends with one of these 'nice' guys all through high school... i really really liked the guy but he never made a move, never said how he felt and so i went on dating other people.. it wasn't untill now 20 years later he mentioned on a facebook message how much he liked me back then how apparently the sun rose and set with me ... thing is I had absolutely no idea:)



Your right it could take a long time or it could happen with the next person you message or 10 or 20 from now.. Maybe standing in line somewhere....question is will you settle for someone who wants the guy you pretend to be to make them happy; only to wake up 5 or 10 or 20 years from now and have her say 'your not the guy i thought you were' lol or will you hold out for the one that will absolutely complete you??

Bimin, my description was not aimed toward all people who are "nice" (chivalrous, gentlemenlike).

I was describing an archetype of the bad kind of "nice guy". The one that many women aren't attracted to.

that's understandable and I agree with you, women aren't attracted to those qualities yet will deal with those qualities if you have $, looks........etc etc.
Most people go through a stage in life where they have one of many of the qualities you listed.

It all really boils down to the fact that we are not in control unless we have a competitive edge such as money, model quality looks..... etc etc. Women control who they sleep with, date and marry.

I will add to that statement by saying there are things you can do to better your chances, working out, learning techniques ..... etc but that only helps a little bit,

I think that article does demonstrate how a lot of women feel about 'nice guys,' but I will add one thing: Think of how many rom/com movies end with the 'nice guy'/just a friend guy figuring out that he loves his 'just a friend' gal pal and declaring his love to her? Note that these movies are largely known as 'chick flicks.' It's not that women don't like 'nice guys,' but that we (especially those of us who are aspies) often don't assume that a guy 'likes us that way' unless he says so. We generally assume that men are not all horndogs who only hang out with us in the hope of getting laid, especially if we are socially compatible and like doing the same kinds of things. We are going to assume that the nice guy friend just wants someone to hang out and do fun things with, but isn't necessarily attracted to us. Why else would he hang out with us? Most of us aren't model-hot, and most of us know that, so the idea that Mr.Nice Guy just likes our personality and isn't attracted to us makes perfect sense.

So if you're a nice guy and have a gal-friend whom you really like but to whom you haven't said anything, especially if she doesn't look like a model, work up your courage and tell her that you're attracted.

If she does look like a model and does know that she's hot, then things are different - but that's about 1% of the women out there. If you're set on hooking a model, the story changes completely.

I believe the scenario you are trying to portray is entirely plausible, an attractive guy could just be looking for companionship / friendship without strings, but that is .04% in my experience of younger aged males. The .04% could be a myriad of reasons that pertain to development, IE' Only male in family, could be lonely.... All of the romantic / comedy movies the girl winds up with the hot guy, or he is really hot and she isn't that hot and she is "complicated" meaning has two or three important men in her life. . . IE Bridget jones diary . .. . .. . . .so many....

Personally I have always professed my feelings for the girls I was friends with and that didn't do anything but give them a sense of power, so they kept me around while sleeping with many other guys.... one of the worst feelings ever.... Now I don't have female friends anymore in America because of that when I was living abroad if I had a female friend and she didn't like me I could ask her to help me find a girlfriend and she would help me out. In America, they just like to keep you in their back pocket and make you suffer. At least that has been my experience.

In America, not all women look like models, but there are many many many attractive women, I would say at least 50% I could walk down a city block in Manhattan and see many women that I would like to enjoy casual time with or get serious and marry.

Models and really attractive women are really hard to get, there are also many semi attractive and average looking women, they are also hard to get and in many cases believe that they are legitimately better than you.

In my case, I was the alpha male, being very assertive whenever necessary, but there was one instance where I asked for relationship advice, and she made the assumption that I couldn't communicate directly, was weak, lazy, and unmotivated. And she would not let go of that assumption, and I told her that wasn't true, and she just kept being defensive and even accused me of trying to manipulate her. In another instance, she mentioned that she would date me if she moved to X city, but not if she moved to Y city (X city was in my area, and I couldn't drop everything and move because I was in school), and she would not compromise on that, so I decided to wait. Yet to her, waiting signified dependence on her and she accused me of "being affected by her actions", yet she was being inflexible and everything had to be her way, with no possibility of compromise.

Many of her assumptions were on things that weren't even true. She accused me of being desperate and settling for her, when I truly wanted to be with her. It's like she was defending her rigid way of doing things, she doesn't trust people, and making it look like I was the one who was screwed up.

well, men and women sometimes perceive the world in different ways. There are guys (and women) I hang out with because we all like the same things, and my interactions with the guys seem to be pretty similar to my interactions with the women. The former don't flirt with me or express any attraction towards me (I'm roughly average, possibly 'good-looking for my age' but nowhere near a model). I simply have no reason to believe that they're interested in a romantic relationship with me, any more than I have a reason to believe that the women I hang out with are interested in a romantic relationship with me - except that some guys say that no guys ever hang out with women for any reason other than to have sex with them. Other guys say that men are human and capable of having human relationships with other humans, regardless of gender.
Nice Guys seem to be men who think that sex is the only reason to associate with a woman, who act submissive towards women in the hopes of ingratiating themselves into getting sex.
Assholes seem to be men who are honest about only wanting to associate with a woman for sex.
nice guys (ie, legitimately nice) are shy men who see women as humans but aren't brave enough to approach women they might be romantically interested in.
as*holes are men who see women as human, who are brave enough to approach women they might be romantically interested in.
Note that these categories are not necessarily limited to men.

Not necessarily a part of either group above are the genuine Losers, men and women whose personalities, intelligence, physical appearance, or combination therof are so below normal that they are simply, genuinely unattractive to the majority of the opposite sex.

My most serious relationship was, under the classification above, with an as*hole (small-a), someone who treated me like a human but who wasn't shy and could actually be quite aggressive with other guys and impolite in general if he thought being impolite was more honest than being polite. In that sense, he did not treat me like the stereotypical guy-gal relationship: no lovey-dovey words, no lying about how my jeans looked, no holding doors for me - because he knew I neither needed nor valued those things. He also never lied to me, never treated me (or other women) as less than human or less valuable as a person than him, and was capable of having a serious intellectual conversation.

most of my friends are men, i dont sleep with any of them

i agreed with just about everything else you said too It seems to me that book men are from mars wemon are from venus lays all this out pretty well too lol.

The way I'm seeing it, girls don't dislike nice guys sexually. They just can't be sexually attracted to a guy with the description you stated of yourself here. Sorry, but that's evolution for you. Think of it from an evolutionary point of view and many things will start to tick in your head about women.