Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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My present take on the 'nice guy' issue, they're people who society didn't like to begin with, society generally beat them into having fewer behavioral options when they were younger. Hence people never really started liking them again to begin with and, the opposite sex will easily believe they see a predator hanging behind that persons eyes simply because they can tell who's a good person but has been treated well enough for most of their life to be whoever they want to be vs. who's been forced to be nice via... natural persecution? Even if the later is a good person, its typically a 'by feel' thing (and yes, I think often enough even a nonverbal disability or just bad luck on genetics) which caused people to crash down on them to begin with.

For those trying to moralize a reason why anyone deserves or doesn't deserve it - you're attributing it to more cerebral or deliberate causes than it has. The so-called 'nice guys' run from that believing that they can change by not being nice, places like heartlessbitch.com run from it by trying to call the guys out by certain cherry-picked examples; ie both are wrong. Such 'nice guys' can become a***holes and fix the problem about as easily as they can become epic successes and fix the problem - neither will work, their marked at too fundamental of a level for that to mean much to people aside from, well, making themselves more self assured and making their own lives more liveable (at least with the success - not sure on the other one).

I do not agree with those three categories, I consider myself respectful of women, kind, caring, creative, courageous, brave, able to hold an intellectual conversation, mentally and sexually stimulating, loyal, understanding and moderately attractive. I can act like the nice guy you describe or like the lower case as*hole you dated, depends on the woman's needs, intellect, level of sensitivity..... and so on.....
I have been approaching women since the 5th grade, 14 different schools, five differrent states and I can tell you that telling a woman upfront what you want does not make any difference at all for me, I have tried many approaches, but if a more attractive, wealthier, taller..... etc etc. says the exact same thing to the exact same girl, there would be an entirely different outcome.

I am not really understanding your point her, please explain, you sound like Hitler and his eugenics.... maybe I am wrong...

I totally agree with the first point, people have different experiences, those who have suffered, who have learned through pain have difficult times relating to those who grew up in a seemingly perfect environment because those exposed to a seemingly perfect environment do not have empathy. IE Most attractive women who have never had anything bad in their lives, ease in the world of dating, ease in work & money, everything comes to them, they can not understand the pain and struggle other people have had to go through, so a large percentage of them live in a self centered world and stay there for their entire lives, ie paris hilton , kim kardashian types. . . or even your attractive girl next door type. This would explain many attractive women but not all. I also agree that people are entirely too quick to judge.

I also agree I and people should stop try to moralize , who deserves and who doesn't deserve what. The other example I did not understand.

Ok. I'm perfectly willing to concede that your dating experience is vastly greater than mine, and that the categories I proposed above account for some men rather than most or all men.

What I do think is true, though, is that many of the men who call themselves 'nice guys' and lament about how stupid women are, are not actually nice at all.

As a metaphor, I train in aikido and often the most aggressive and dangerous people on the mat (men and women) are the ones who think of themselves as peaceful, gentle, and kind.

edit wrt. attractive women having life easy: there is a subset of women who do get lots of favors from male sycophants, who might blithely say, 'I tend to get along with men better than women,' without realizing why this might be so. However, you're talking there about unusually attractive women - say, the top 15%. The simple fact of the matter is that if you want an unusually attractive partner, you have to be unusually attractive yourself and whining about how such women won't pay attention to you is the equivalent of banging your head on the wall.

Sorry, no explanation from me. You're not ready for the truth yet. That's why you still think you're a nice guy when you're just a romantically frustrated person who doesn't seem to understand why he's not as successful as the ones he call jerks and as*holes.

Nice guys don't go rude with someone trying to help them out.

People either try to imagine that they have accountability (ie. believing its their own fault) for the sake of having the hope that they can still improve their way out of it or, for those who feel like they've been attacked for their preference (the heartlessbitch.com who had an article on 'nice guys' that got floated around here) there's an attempt to counter-attack do to a sense of guilt that isn't exactly realistic either. Both are very human behaviors, people hate having to come to terms with the notion that they're in a hole they're effectively sealed in and can never climb out of, just like people generally tend to get mean and try going to counter-offense when they're being attacked on something that their own biology forces them into.

Lol, that's because they're bringing more Ki.

I do apologize for my hasty statement, I did not mean to attack you in anyway I as just confused at the time. Even nice guys have bad days and when you were once running a business in a different country, successful with women then because of the economy have to return to the land of loneliness, rejection, bad weather, living in my parents house with not even a tv in my room, no friends, no life, stuck.
I totally apologize for going rude, I am just depressed, hopeless, sad right now and didn't think before I responded.

I am not sure if my dating experience is greater than yours,
Nice guys who lament about women are just trying to sooth their pain, because for most men they are wired in such a way to constantly be thinking of women, that's just nature. Guys who complain about women, are complaining because the women don't want to be with them, are you really going to take that away from them too?
Times are very different, women are more independant than ever before, have less need for men, in some cases especially with attractive women men are just used as toys, tools, eaten up and spit out, divorce is at 50%, in america, there are easily 10% more men than women in any given state (12% in some) . Not to mention all of the foreigners that meet & marry American women. The actual dating population is not in man's favor & I am going to come out and say this because nobody else will, (this is really a Woman's country.
And this is coming from a Women's studies minor, who took classes such as: feminist theory, women in wester religion, women in atheltics......)
This is reality, now you couple this with constant bombardment of media like sex & the city, real housewives, kim kardashian, paris hilton, which subliminally brainwashes women into that live and setting for nothing less, women kissing other men and cheating being OK in relationships .............
now if you couple this reality with men's innate drive to copulate, find a suitor, or societies impression upon the mind for romance through media from a young age, what do you end up with?
Men lamenting......
Then I will go even farther and say that even if I am lucky enough to find a girl that I am attracted to, she will want to be an "independant american woman" and go out to drinks with her girlfriends, works, has "me time", I will still be lonely......
The only way to be happy is a dream, to be able to find a woman willing to spend alot of time with you and sacrifice for love, or have alot of money to afford to never be alone.

You are right if you want an unusually attractive partner, you have to be unusually attractive yourself or have a lot of money...... and whining about it is like banging your head against the wall this is entirely true.
I woud like to be with a model just like everyone has their dreams, favorite actors..... There are many women I am attracted to that are nowhere near models that I still can't be with....

It is not, unfortunately. Dangerous =/= better, especially in aikido. It is because they're afraid of other people and/or careless of other people's bodies, and do the technique fast and carelessly, rather than right.

I just did everything I knew to do.

Sounds like it is.


If it takes denigrating all women as stupid/vicious/whatever to make a guy feel better, then yes.
I broke up with the first guy I ever dated - a 'nice guy' - because he insulted other people to make himself feel better. Sorry, that's not truly 'nice.'


I question your data. It might be accurate in Alaska, but I strongly doubt that it is accurate anywhere else; slightly more boys than girls are born every year (nowhere near 10% more, though), but due to the higher accident rate for boys, there are generally more girls than boys alive by the time any given cohort hits puberty.


As opposed to all of the men who meet and marry foreign women?


Given that you have about 50x more chance than I do of ever being elected president, or even senator or congressperson, simply by virtue of your gender, I have to disagree. Given that the male colleague I have makes more than I do, despite not being better at the job, more flexible in hours, or better at any other significant quality - and despite the fact that I have seniority - I have to disagree. Given that I'm more likely to be diagnosed as "hysterical" if I present in a doctor's office with symptoms that he doesn't understand than you are if you present with the same symptoms, I have to disagree.
I could go on. I won't bother.


Constantly brainwashing women that if they aren't that thin and that beautiful, then they are worthless...

Don't you want 'me time' too? Don't you want time to spend with the guys?
It's not healthy for someone, male or female, to depend entirely on their partner for their social life and for their happiness. You have to be happy with yourself before you can be happy with a partner.

Well how can I quantify my dating history? By number of women I slept with? Number of serious relationships? I am not sure and do not know your dating history either, let’s first determine an accurate and reliable means to quantify and operationally define dating history.
La ment
1.To express grief for or about; mourn: lament a death.
2. To regret deeply; deplore:

I am not sure where denigration comes into the mix but I guess it’s fair statement being that I have spoken about my experiences with women, prejudices encountered, cultural differences, reasons for rejection. I think you are taking this way out of context by your example with your first boyfriend. I would not insult a woman to her face and complain to her about these issues, (although I did complain to all of the South American girls I dated and befriended about American women and dating politics, kind of like PTSD, they just told me that I was handsome, a great man and why they could not understand why that happens to me in my own country and I explained it to them. ) I do not condone insults, in fact when I was responsible for 40 teenagers at a weight loss camp, I wouldn’t allow insulting, not only would I not allow it, I would always talk to the two parties and diffuse the situation, find out what misunderstanding or what difficult life experience caused the insult and remedy it.
In the privacy of your own home, mind, group of friends, people you confide in it is ok to lament, but for the past number of years media has denigrated men for being bad fathers, cheaters and lovers when the rate of infidelity is equal to that of women. The women who complain about men complain because they are all opting for the alpha male and the alpha male has more options, has had more options from birth, not just dating options but all options in life, which makes it more likely that he will be a scum bag.
You are more that welcome to check my fact checking, my data is from the aggregation of the United States Censuses from 2000-2010, I invite you to look at the statistics. In Alaska its way more that 10%, by the time dating age comes around there are more males in every state across the nation.
You are entirely correct about more foreigners and American men, I haven’t been able to find accurate statistics and there is no market for foreign women meeting foreign men online, although in all of my experience I have seen many American women with foreign men, most American men fall over sideways for a British accent, my aunt is married to a Spaniard, my other aunt a Haitian, other aunt a Jamaican, and before that a Sikh , all born outside of the country. At the camp where I was a guidance counselor to kids at a weight loss camp, the most eligible females where with foreign men.
I do not agree with those statistics I believe not many American women want to run for office and that’s that. I also believe that we do not have any control upon voting, that the voting process has been compromised, not just the Electoral College but corporate and hierarchal characters as well. I do not have a job nor have ever had a job, I have had to start my own business, pay for college that way, despite all of the resume writing, higher education, cover letters, interviews, call backs, I graduated in 2007, Every single female that I every knew in college, high school, middle school, growing up, keep in mind this is 14 different schools, 5 different states they are all employed! The more attractive the higher the job role with exception to extremely intelligent women. I do not see people’s salaries so I can say that the difference in pay exists or not. There are way more men unemployed than women.
Please also consider that most if not all the money men make goes to ( I would say an average of 75% nationwide ) women and families, providing. When single I have spent most of my free cash flow on bettering myself to better my chances to meet women, then when that didn’t work, traveling to countries where I would statistically have a better chance at finding a match. Now any free money I have goes to women on the webcam.
I totally agree with you on the statement that if they aren’t thin and beautiful they are worthless because I have smuggled with my body image for years because of the same Adonis stereotypes for males. Gained 100lbs because coma ( drunk state elementary school bus driver), lost the 100lbs, waxed, lazered, did everything possible to remove my body hair but skin is too sensitive so I just have to let it grow, no way to grow taller unless you are younger and take HGH (but with a high risk for cancer), break your bones for three years and put pins in you, (this consequently happened to my femur by yet another accident but no growth ), become bulimic…… Then after traveling to different countries, the self hatred stopped, I relieved it’s not me, it’s American women and America.
No I don’t want me time, I wan’t US time. I couldn’t give a rats ass about guys, beer, sports, guys are fickle and competitive, beer tastes like sh it and sports are boring as hell unless your are playing them yourself. I might be different but my self worth and self esteem diminishes without love and companionship. Ie. Gpa w/o gf = 2.2, Gpa W Gf = 3.8, Now I can deal with non-committed relationships if that’s what one desires but they would have to be frequent and numerous, I don’t think I would agree with that statement, you have to be happy with yourself first.... at least not in my case, and how can I be happy with myself being rejected in all aspects of life? Also there are many guys not happy with themselves in relationship today.

Yeah, it sounds like these are people who are necessarily trying pretty hard to change themselves into something else, perhaps this is why they talk a big game and you see anything but in practice.

I've been taking a combination of Kali and Kuntao for a couple years, its pretty much the same - the people with the most skill and experience know how to apply force or, in the case of working with a partner, know how to apply a takedown or a gunting without causing much pain, with beginners occasionally or some people who just end up getting way too into it I occasionally have to get used to their energy and roll with it a bit more than usual while trying to lead by example from my side.

From a female point of view, I see it as very unnecessary to worry about being "too nice" with the ladies. Especially for younger girls/women who are seeking experiences, certain types of men (the "naughty" ones) equal to "fun" and "adventure", but those are generally speaking very different type to what an average girl wants a steady relationship with, and especially marriage. It is a strong myth, that I very heavily judge, that women would fall for abusive men. Please do not be naive enough to think women wouldn't distinguish love and sex; women too, have one-night-stands and acquaintances better know as **** buddies. It doesn't show admiration, but lack of respect, to accept somebody to please one's short-term pursuing of excitement.

Can we not ask similarly would boys rather love Jenna Jameson or an average "nice girl"? Generally speaking there's a large distinction between a short-term fantasy and life-long commitment. Surely you've heard the saying about having fun with blondes and marrying brunettes. Women tend to have just as much or even more pressure trying to understand what from the male point of view actually are desirable qualities in a woman and what aren't.

My experience-based summary is that generally speaking, women appreciate in a long-term partner one's traditional "nice guy" features, such as trustworthiness, loyalty and caring (brains don't harm either). Wait another ten years and you will be a target, not the "bad boys".