Why is it that the nice guys finish last?

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I honestly am saying it's okay to lie and deceive. And I am a very honest person.

There are many deceptions in the world, and they're all perpetuated by people. The good deceptions are there to spare peoples feelings. The bad deceptions are there to hurt. Knowing the difference is a key aspect in being happy in society.

Children are frequently deceived because they lack the maturity to comprehend complex issues. The same can be said of many adults.

"What were you looking at?"
"That hermit crab."
"That hermit crab next to the hot girl?"
"I didn't put it there."



In business this kills you. In a personal relationship, you need to be able to forgive and understand another persons failings. Complete honesty shows a disregard of the impact of words on the other persons you supposedly care about.

So in the light of total honesty: You're wrong, probably very lonely, have a problem making emotional connections, and probably lack basic societal tact and etiquette.

For some people (AS/NT), that is no big deal. They only seek knowledge about how to cope, and that's easy for you only need to understand and deal with one person. We have discussed this in other threads.

However, in dealing with NT's, the ability to lie/deceive becomes important as this is how the NT world will relate to you. Interaction with other people, particularly those of the fairer sex requires tact, delicacy, etiquette, manners and an ability to bite ones tongue.

A half-lie is still a lie. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Flip it around and I've been there.

First, looking for the greener grass is part of the human condition. She simply openly stated it.

The distance is used as an excuse as I have dated women 3000 miles away, and disliked a 120 mile relationship. Distance is no problem if the other party is "perfect". How many service men and women are divorced? How many remain married?

Strong personality can mean stubborn, but it rarely equates to emotional support. If you want a guy with little to no emotional baggage and requiring no support, you usually desire "emotionally stable and fiercely independent".

Finally, your attempts to compromise didn't matter. If she was looking for someone else/better, and she thought she would be able to achieve that here on WP or elsewhere, the die was cast and you lost. You can not unring that bell.

The final question simply becomes: Was it good while it lasted?

"Did he live?" -- Serendipity

The thing was that I was working on being as independent as possible, and trying not to have any emotional baggage, but it wasn;t good enough for her.

I think that now, I would be independent and stable enough for her, but I haven't heard from her in almost a year, not even as a friend.

bolding my me.

And all this time I believed you when you said you were always being rejected. And it turns out you were the one doing the rejecting. And over little white lies. Wow. Well. Hmmm. Ok then. If you are expecting 24/7/365 honesty then...you are incompatible with women. Oh well. If you can drop that standard, a relationship is possible. If you can't, it isn't. Your choice.

What is my take on that? That you two are incompatible and a relationship is not possible. If you are incompatible then that is the end of that. Compatibility is the #1 mandatory thing for a relationship to happen. It trumps everything else. If people are compatible, they can have a relationship. They may be co-dependent (if their compatibilities mesh in an unhealthy way) but a co-dependent relationship is a relationship nonetheless. But if you aren't compatible...you aren't. And no amount of talk or even attempts at personal change will affect that. It really is about the mesh between two personalities and has nothing whatsoever to do with "good enough".

Perhaps you could make a list of the things that make you happy, that don't involve women. And then do those things on a regular basis. Feeling content and happy takes work, if you spend more time dwelling on the things that make you unhappy. Just think- if you spend more time on the things that make you happy, the things that cause your unhappiness won't go away - they will just seem less important.

When I was single, I spent a lot of time bemoaning my single state. I lamented about the lack of eligible males out there. Then, I started getting bored with myself. So, I began to think of all the things that I could do as a single woman. I started getting out socially, and, because I wasn't focusing so hard on what I didn't have, I came across to other people as a person who was fun, interesting, and attractive. The trick is, decide what you want to focus on. What you don't have, or what you do have.

Another thing was that she kept changing the story about a lot of things. First she said my personality wasn't good enough, then she said it was ok, then she said it wasn't, then she told a friend that my personality was fine.

I feel like I did everything right in getting out of the friend zone, but she was rigid about the distance. I was positive and assertive up to that point.

It was not always a typical male/ female relationship I ended. I also ended firedships and stoped dealing with members of my family that have lied to me. You assume they all were male/ female relationships. Only one of those I ended because of the lies was the one that used me.

I would rather not have a relationship at all then be with someone that lies and misleads me all the time to get kicks. If you can't be honest, its not worth it. You say I am incompatable with women because I expect honesty. So are you saying all women like to lie and mislead guys?

Seem interesting, got a kick out of the reviews

You make it sound like a mind game that women do just to be mean but it's not like that at all. I couldn't bear to police my every word to make sure it fit somebody's standard of honesty. I do white lies pretty frequently. This isn't a game I do to entertain. It makes life less stressful. I never lie in a hurtful way. I don't deceive my husband. But, for example, if I spent awhile making dinner and something came up for him that was a really big deal for him but he wasn't going to go because he felt guilty about not joining me for dinner then I would do a white lie that I had just thrown something together so that he wouldn't feel guilty. This happened when a friend offered him unexpected tickets to a huge game and he desperately wanted to go but wouldn't have if he thought I'd put a lot of effort into dinner. That's just an example of the sort of mild lie that has kept us married for 20 years. If that was a dealbreaker for him, well, I suppose we wouldn't be together. Likewise if something goes awry with my cooking he says, "it tastes fine to me". I doubt it always does.

But that's not what you want. I suppose that means you want a woman with Asperger's Syndrome because this 24/7/365 honesty would be very stressful for an NT woman but a woman with Aspergers Syndrome would do it naturally. HOWEVER that brings us back to the things b9 wrote. As is clear from elderwanda's post, a woman with Asperger's Syndrome may be fine with 100% honesty (would do it naturally anyway) but would be unwilling to get herself into a relationship that didn't feel safe or was too needy. You need to heed the advice of elderwanda, b9, therange and billsmithglendale so that when you meet that thoroughly honest Aspie woman, she won't be put off by your grim neediness which looks exhausting to try to fill at best and dangerous at worst. I am NT and therefore don't value honesty all that much (other than the important things, like not being cheated on or discovering our life savings have been gambled away). But elderwanda,b9, therange and billsmithglendale all have AS and therefore get the whole honesty thing in a way that I don't but also see- sometimes through experience- the perils of neediness.

Not to give input on a hackneyed topic but - its only confusing if your confused on what our basis is. If you see us as animals primarily and see our societal construct second - evolutionary psychology makes it plainly obvious. Should that all be behind us? Yes and no - genetic instincts are very slow to leave us which is say frustrating right now but, if we were to hit an ice age in another hundred years that ability to revert back would help a great deal in keeping the human race going. You've probably also heard the old expression 'the thin veil of humanity or 'we're only nine meals away from anarchy?' - as much as we want to dream big we are a race that lives on razor's edge existentially, we don't want to think about it, we want to take the now for granted, something wiser and albeit more conservative than ourselves says no.

This is where to the 'nice' people out there, things will either work or not work out on their own merits - there's no bending, breaking, trying to bash parts of your personality out with a crowbar and trying to reset them thinking they'll heal into something better; you are what you are and, if you leave your center in terms of where you genetically function - you'll find you're walking on ground that you won't and can't function as well on.

From that point I guess you just need a better outlook on the big picture - as a nice person, you may or may not do well with the opposite sex, if the opposite sex isn't into you it'd be a leap of faith to say that you can change that - clever disguises will get you laid, that's it, I doubt that's what you want in the long run as it might be fun a few times but it'll leave you hollow fast. My advice - find out what makes you happiest, find out what part of yourself glows the brightest, and build on that side of yourself. Ignore the opposite sex in any sense of seeing them as something to be won - if you're 20 and she's 20 you've both been alive for that long, both have opinions that have been setting that long, the older you get the clearer it is, thus there's really no such thing as rejection - just slow unmasking of reality from both sides and if one side or the other isn't feeling it, its off.

The best way of looking at it - if you know who you are, understand your internal rules and what you're heredity has lain out for you in terms of a path; walk it to the best of your ability. If you really hate that path - test the boundaries, not to the point where you wreck your health from self-induced trauma, but at least enough to put your negative stereotypes of self to rest.

All of that may sound a bit Pollyanna on first glance but when you think about it - the human condition is grim, really grim, regardless of whether or not there's a soul. About the only thing we have is to elevate ourselves regardless of what external circumstance throws us, at some times n life its much harder than others, just like its much harder for some people than others based on circumstance but, its the route that ultimately needs to be taken.

If in addition to being "nice" you guys are also extremely confident, good looking and/or wealthy, you should have no problem getting the hot women. End of story.

If being nice is really all you have going for you, you will probably be out of luck in that regard.

I find it sad that you consider not being able to date the most physically attractive women (who might not be very nice themselves) as "finishing last".

Women who are willing to accept you for who you are and be true soul mates might not come in the most beautiful packages. Attraction is important but it can develop over time based on more than just looks and money...but it means giving someone who you might initially rule out due to looks...a chance.

Relationships based solely on physical looks or material things rarely last.

Beautifully and succinctly put!

I don't analyze "niceness". I just do what I know to do.

And there is more to my story. At the time, she wasn't ready for any relationship, and I was making myself unavailable to everyone else until she became ready. She mentioned the possibility that she could get a job close to where I was at the time, and I waited to see if that would happen. I didn't know she was going to be freaked out by it.

Absolutely. That's a truly unrealistic standard. People you date shouldn't need to have any more qualifications than being enjoyable to spend time with. As the relationship progresses, you may raise the bar gradually. But for you to expect someone to be 100% honest & blunt with you right away? That's only something you can expect from a very close relationship. Expecting full intimacy that early would scare anyone away faster than you can blink.

If you're able to be blunt & honest right away, awesome then. That may be your best quality. Just don't expect everyone else to live up to such a high standard.

Indeed. I agree.