Infidelity Deception and Delusion in Relationship

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I usually tell people that I had only began dating as an adult. But I wonder if my various friends (who were boys) probably attempted to date me and I had no idea of their intent. I had no problem discerning intent if a man used a sexual approach. Those who were "friends" though stayed clearly in the friend zone as they made no attempt to make their feelings known to me.


That seems strange. I don't see how it could be done as a joke. Maybe he's just inconsistent?
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This person has become comfortable with my presence so he tends to say things that might not be otherwise appropriate. I see this problem with those who have boundary issues. They don't know when to stop. They think they are being funny. I only get more annoyed. I tend to keep this annoyance to myself. I have mentioned to others various insults I have received over the years and have been told to "get over it." So since my attempts to stop disrespectul behaviour is criticized, I tend to hide my hurt feelings. I wish I knew how to deal with this in a better way. When I try to avoid those who would insult me, I am then reprimanded (like a child) since it appears that I am expected to put up with their abuse.



Did you realize that your wife was trying to protect you because she thought you might be vulnerable? As my husband used to say if he suspected that I was at risk, "I know you won't do anything, I just don't trust anyone else.' He believed that I couldn't protect myself as I seemed to be a pushover. He was wrong though, I may be somewhat passive but am certainly no pushover.



I think of these things too even with friends in whom I have no interest. I think about what they are saying about their partners and how they are treating them. When they complain about their partner's (supposed) lack of interest in them, I wonder how much attention it would take to make them happy. Complaints about lack of attention (while I know that they also neglect and show disrespect to their partners) tend to irritate me. It seems that they have a problem with compatibility of personalities. In other words, an extremely needy person will never be happy with a person who is independent minded. The independent person is villified when he or she has done nothing wrong. Perhaps a needy/co-dependent would be better matched with another needy/co-dependent personality.



Good advice.



Interesting point about the wife's care of her husband allowing her husband to never really be introspective about his needs. If he never has to think about them, then he may never be able to describe his emotional needs, even when asked.



These days, I try to find the correct response, but in my own time. I have no trouble when asked how I feel about something or to give an opinion, to say, "I haven't thought about that before. Give me some time to think about that." Providing this response is better than no response.

I've come under fire for keeping away from relatives I can't get on with, and I never feel good about having to put up a wall, but mainly I stick with the idea that my relationship with person A shouldn't depend on my getting on with person B, C, etc., and if I take a serious dislike to somebody, it's very difficult to get me to stick around for them. Of course it's always better to share friends when it works. It would probably be easier to know what problems you're getting if you gave some detail about what exactly was being said.


I'm not sure my wife was trying to protect me. She came out with her question about the song in a very matter-of-fact way, as if she were just making small talk. And her own behaviour suggested strongly that she wasn't interested in the finer points of emotional fidelity......not long after we'd become partners, I noticed her staring and smiling so long at another man that I was quite worried that it would be picked up as a sexual come-on, but when I tried to talk calmly with her about it later, she became very anxious and totally clammed up. I let the matter drop, but probably shouldn't have done, because just feeling that I couldn't talk to her about that kind of thing scared me a lot. She reacted similarly when I passed on to her a remark by a colleague that there had been a time when he'd got the impression that she wanted him - I thought she'd see the weight of evidence was mounting, and that she'd therefore try to explain, but she just became defensive. A blazing row ensued, which nobody won.

After that I tried not to think about it, and just hoped that it wouldn't be anything to worry about. I didn't have much confidence in what the rules should be in those days. We were still living through the "permissive society" thing that had started in the 60s, and I hadn't yet realised that some of my apparently possessive feelings were actually quite reasonable. If only I'd shared some of my misgivings with others at the time, I might have had the courage of my convictions and insisted on a solution.

I can certainly echo your husband's (past) concerns over the apparent vulnerability of a female partner. While it's true that many women can take care of themselves, it feels much safer when they avoid getting into that situation in the first place. I don't think it's any easier for women who have to worry about their husbands though. Just as I can get very anxious over the "female vulnerability" thing, women have to cope with lay opinion that often thinks men have no sexual self-control at all and would be unable to resist a woman who was making herself obviously available. Trouble is, it's such a rare event for a woman to make her desires so plain to a man, that it's usually an untested hypothesis, whereas most women have probably had to rebuff a male sexual advance or two by the time they're in a serious relationship. Sounds like you worked through the worries though. It's amazing what a bit of respectful listening and reassuring can achieve. You'd be amazed how many times I've sought that and received nothing but contempt and glib dismissal of my concerns. I'll never understand what those women thought I was going to do with my anxieties - it was always very clear to me that it would distance us and that things would never be right until it was resolved.


Sounds like what you're getting from those people is very one-sided, which I suppose is quite common, as the individual readily feels their own pain and sense of indignation but it takes work to bring to light their own hand in the problems. I suppose a devastating comment might be, "it'll be interesting to hear your spouse's take on this." Eric Berne catalogued a "game" called "ain't it awful" in which the participants compete at ranting about something that the listeners can't help with.....it would ruin the game if anybody came up with a solution.

I think dependence/independence is definitely one of those traits that needs matching well if the relationship is to be a happy one. Some people are probably so confident and independent that they wouldn't worry at all about any of the things that concern me. The happiness would be spoiled because I'd think they were insensitive and over-liberal, while they'd feel unnecessarily tied down. But it would be hard for me to know exactly what level of dependency to go for in a partner. The heavily-dependent type would probably be great for reassuring away my anxieties, but perhaps if taken to extremes it could stop both of us from growing at all.


I think that's the way it used to be for most couples. But the time-bomb went off during the rise of feminism........I guess a lot of men were left feeling very let down but with no clear idea what precisely was hurting them.


I've known the wisdom of that for decades, but I still tend to forget that I can ask for a delay. I always seem to try to solve everything immediately, all by myself.

It's been a week since I've been here...

Sometimes our friends can be a bit too familiar or flirtatious and it becomes annoying. I have no interest in flirtations with anyone other than my partner so I try to avoid this discomfort by responding with something very unexpected or odd. This causes a little confusion but it seems to be effective in stopping the inappropriate behavior.



I'm not going to deny the above, many women do believe that men have no self-control when it comes to sex. When we meet a man who appears to be the exception, we don't know what to think of him.



Even when we think we are being clear about our intentions, we find that we are not clear at all. Seems like a language barrier to me. As for showing concern for a partner's anxiety, I am certain that I have never shown contempt but probably have seemed dismissive - I am not proud of that. Hoping that age and experience (and a lot of patience) will help me avoid carelessless in my relationship.



You're right - they really don't seem to want to know how their spouse views the issue. And a solution to the problem is not always welcome. Sometimes it is good to know that a person just wants to vent.

I think that some people believe in "harmless flirting." I suppose they're all so confident about their relationships that they can't imagine it could possibly hurt. Either that or they can't resist the temptation to gratify their inappropriate desires. I wonder how they'd feel if they saw their partners doing the same thing? I've known a number of people who have claimed to be "non-jealous" and in every case there's been reason to suspect that they weren't being entirely honest with me or perhaps with themselves.

This author seems to agree with me:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... .html?cat=

This one thinks that there are 2 kinds of flirting, harmful and harmless:
http://www.suite101.com/content/flirtin ... ing-a39400

One of the problems is that flirting is difficult to define.....I felt that some of the instances of "harmless flirting" quoted there were not really flirting at all. Surely a piece of behaviour is either sexually charged or it isn't? Yet with so much subliminal stuff going on, it's sometimes very difficult to know one way or the other. Ultimately the deciding factor is what's going on in the minds of the people involved, and I think most of them are never going to be honest about that. The moment a person admits a sexual angle to their handiwork, the genie is out of the bottle and they're never going to be able to pretend innocence again, so their game is spoiled.


Not long ago, my wife was indirectly saying that she feared one of my female acquaintances might be headed for a relationship with me. I'm afraid the idea seemed so crazy to me that I laughed out loud - not at my wife but at the idea. I think she realised that, but even while I was laughing, I wished I'd been able to keep a straight face and reassure her in a more serious way. I did a bit of that later on, and she seems to have got the point. I've been in that miserable position myself so often, trying to get reassurance on something llike that and getting none, that I have a lot of sympathy for others in the same position, but even I sometimes wonder where they get their some of their ideas from.

Yes sometimes I'm sure it's just the need to release the pressure....I suppose NTs do that all the time, getting upset and saying all kinds of over-the-top things that they don't really mean, and their listeners probably understand that, and neither believe nor challenge what they've said. Traditionally I've never really felt able to let myself go like that, so even when I'm really upset, I still struggle to make sure that what I say is reasonably objective anf fair. And in the past I've often taken an angry remark from another as "showing them in their true colours" or given it undue weight.......I've later called for a retraction, or at least remembered their last pronouncement on the issue and seen it as important for them to re-phrase it in a kinder way.

I have a bit of sympathy with the view that it's sometimes best to leave these things behind, rather than amplify their embarrassment by reminding them of what they've said before, but really, how can anybody be fit for a relationship if they can't even acknowledge the harm that they've done with their anger? I'm not talking about railing at them for it or deliberately trying to make them feel undue shame and self-loathing.....some people just can't cope with being told that, although they're basically OK, they do have some things to answer for.

I don't believe they know they are flirting and are surprised to know that they've hurt their partner. It is cluelessness? If I can't use proper facial expression to show that I am annoyed - and not willing to say it with words - then they won't know how hurtful their behaviour is. Lack of response to this behavior makes them feel that it is acceptable behavior.



But isn't flirting usually "sexually charged" even if there is no intent on the part of the flirt to follow up on his or her words?



And as much as I'd want reassurance, I don't think I'm very good at reassuring anyone. This probably adds to insecurity. How do we learn the right words to say when words are needed?



I prefer to let those things pass too. I think they are aware (at a later time) of the effect of their words and are probably embarrassed and don't need a reminder to make them feel worse. I don't mind though if someone kindly tells me that I've done or said something wrong - if I know their intent is to help me.

Sometimes, though, I think it's a bit like bullying - if they can't get a reaction they might get bored and give up.

I would think that the simplest - and possibly the best - definition of flirting would be behaviour that is sexually charged, but it's clear from the Web that many authors don't agree with that definition. But there's a lot of behaviour out there which, while having no obvious sexual connotations, might arouse suspicion or objections. Suppose person A notices that person B has self-esteem problems, and begins, through small deeds and remarks, to boost B's confidence every time they meet? If A is already attached to somebody else, at what point does the situation become unhealthy? I remember one lady getting quite annoyed when her husband complimented their (female) solicitor's dress, and she felt that he was flirting. I could see why she felt that way - it's just the sort of remark that men make when they're chasing women - but do attached men have to completely stop complimenting other women, or are they allowed to do that occasionally?

It seems to be different for different people. My wife seemed relieved when I started laughing....I think she knew that I wasn't laughing at her anxiety but at the thought of myself in a relationship with the woman she was talking about. I think if it had been the other way round, I might have needed a more sober response. Perhaps one universal thing would be to always take such anxieties seriously - even if the anxiety seems quite ludicrous, it's still very real to them, and needs soothing. I think the main thing is to remain open to further respectful discussion, and to make sure that the partner knows that.....if my partner has a problem with my behaviour, then it's one of my responsibilities to do what I can to resolve it. So to reassure, I'd be careful to avoid shutting down discussion on it until the partner felt comfortable with the outcome. As for what to say, I guess asking them to say exactly what they think might happen would be a good start. Now, if you're sure that it can't happen, it would probably be reassuring to highlight the reasons that convince you of that. Tone of voice is probably important - any hint of reproach might stop the other person from listening openly.....soft, serious and respectful ought to do the trick. But it can be almost impossible if the two people have very different ideas about how much freedom they should be allowed. It's very difficult to give general advice on these issues, because every case seems to be different.

Probably that's the wisest way. Though one partner's comment, that she intended to leave me one day, kind of stuck with me for good, although it was almost certainly rubbish.

...Though I remember the bullying (in childhood) in a different way. They didn't get bored. They beat me until I gave them a reaction - or until the police came...or I started bleeding too much... So I still get confused about how I am supposed to react. Will I be punished if I react - or- if I show no emotion? Bullying by adults is much harder to read since it is mostly verbal, not physical.



Some of the remarks I hear from men are more than "what a nice dress you are wearing." I will not respond to overt sexual comments from men, but I notice that some women seem to really like being treated like that. So I'm the one who's different because I won't engage in sexual banter with someone other than my partner. I don't judge others for engaging in that kind of conversation but am told that I need to lighten up when I don't respond in the way I am expected to. But then I usually don't respond in a normal way.



If we only knew what was needed to be said - or not said - for any issue causing anxiety. How does the NT always know what kind of reassurance is needed? Closing my mouth and listening more helps but then the partner seems to finally want a solution to the problem - what to do then when time (or a short delay) is needed to say or do just the right thing? Tone of voice is very important - impairment in this area though can cause more trouble than the original argument. Lack of facial expression - or misjudgment of facial expression - can hinder the process of reassurance. I am conscious that I am unable to properly use facial expression, so touch - touching hands, shoulder, etc. or forcing eye contact can go a long way in showing that I care about the issue. It seems like a daily struggle to communicate in this way.



One can never feel good about a comment like that. I've had things said to me that should never be said. The comments will always stay with me but even if I can forgive the comment, I can never forget the pain it caused me.

That's awful. It must make it very difficult for you to know how to react to bullying now. I've often felt that I don't know what's hitting me (with adult bullying) at the time, and I know another person with autistic traits who has the same trouble. I don't know what the answer is, apart from avoiding people who make me uncomfortable.


Yes I'd say there was something corrupt going on with those people. I'm afraid I do tend to judge people who go that way, as they don't really fit into my world. If they're truly monogamous, why do they delight so much in playing on the boundary of fidelity? But I've known lots of people who aren't corrupt in that way, including women who have no time for it.


Yes it's difficult. I think it's good to really focus on the other person's problem (when they bring it to you), and Aspies tend to be good at focussing. The main thing to avoid is giving the impression that you haven't really listened. Touch is good if you can do it. If they're opening up about what's bothering them, I guess the next step is to feed that back to them to check whether it's been picked up accurately....hopefully when the listener has a clear picture of the speaker's experience and fears, the listener's face will be inclined to echo the emotions slightly, if their social imagination is strong enough. I think most tones of voice are probably OK, apart from loud or harsh ones.

She later implied that she hadn't meant it, but somehow I couldn't feel content without a specific retraction, which never happened. After experiencing that and a few other inappropriate comments and actions, I left her. It was the only way I could make sure she didn't hurt me like that again. The separation was itself a very painful experience, but at least that pain was over fairly quickly, whereas if I'd stayed, I'd probably still be getting the same kind of treatment now. Hopefully, losing me hammered home the point that my objections were real.

I don't understand it when people seem to enjoy telling others about their infidelities. Just yesterday, a friend resurfaced after several months to give me an update on her life and her "affair." She is married and so is her lover. She brags about it and I don't know I am expected to respond. And I certainly don't understand it when she tells me her husband discovered her affair, wants to remain married to her, but she no longer wants to stay with her husband but has no intention of breaking up the marriage of her lover. Proudly using the phrase "deny till you die." I find that I understand people less as I get older.

I am really not judgmental but can't stand to listen to BS like this especially when I think someone is really being delusional about their actions. I listen to the story and immediately (to their chagrin) go into Aspie mode.

Her: He (the lover) is really nice to me, better than my husband.
Me: He doesn't sound nice to me.
Her: What do you mean? He opens doors for me, treats me well, ...
Me: He can't be a very nice person if he is cheating on his wife and children
Her: He says his wife is a crazy b*****
Me: Most men who have affairs claim that their wife is a crazy b****

All three elements are here:
Infidelity (the sexual relationship)
Deception (lying to the spouse and herself)
Delusion (believing her lover is a "nice guy.")

It reminds me of the way some alcoholics brag about the very habits that are destined to kill them. I guess I'm lucky that nobody's ever bragged about their affairs to me in that way. I might be sympathetic if they showed some kind of appreciation of the gravity of the situation, but otherwise I don't think I could be a good ear. Luckily nobody has shared that kind of thing with me......the nearest I've seen was a lady who was upset about her partner neglecting her....she said that she thought she'd go and have an affair just to spite him, and I said "you know you don't mean it." There was a stony silence and I never heard any more about it. The only other thing I remember is when I had a heated argument with a guy at a rather out-of-control workplace party, where I simply told him straight out that I thought the sexual stuff that was going on was appalling. He said that he didn't think there was anything wrong with "a quick snog at Christmas," I countered, and we ended the conversation without agreeing. I was only 18 and had never seen sleaze like it before.

I don't think it's particularly Aspie to feel this way. Lots of NTs are quite strict about fidelity. But I can well believe that kind of thing is going on all the time with many people. I noticed this once, a long time ago - one of my girlfriend's clan, a woman, kept bending over a game board, revealing a sizeable amount of cleavage. Now that in itself isn't particularly unusual and I just regretfully put it down to modern times. But as soon as her husband arrived, as if by magic, she began holding her hand to her chest every time she bent over, to avoid the display. I realised at once that she must have been aware of what the guys could see, and that she was operating double standards with her husband. If I'd been him, and I'd known that, then the whole relationship would have been plunged into a major watershed, and the chances of it surviving would have been remote. Don't know whether that makes me hypersensitive, perfectionist, autistic, or just perceptive and wholesome. I decided against spilling the beans.

Luckily there's nobody around me any more who flaunts the fidelity rules. I rather thought it might be a thing of the past, but it seems not. Though I think it's quite age-dependent, and people seem to calm down as the hormones subside.

There was one book I saw that encouraged me - I can't recall the name but it was essentially a book of advice for women, on how to keep their relationships good, and the main message was that partners have to be honest and loyal. The author was recommending that women insist on that, as a fundamental condition of the relationship, with no excuses or dilution.

I have trouble agreeing with those who justify their infidelity but am willing to rethink my stance on why people will cheat on their partners. I won't condone it though. My partner and I recently had this discussion because we both have friends who are cheating on their partners. He is of the opinion that people will usually have sex with someone outside the relationship if given the opportunity. I disagreed - I am monogamous and won't apologize for it. I think the unfaithful (deceptive) partner should leave their partner (or end the affair) in order to avoid hurting them. However, I believe that if the couple has an agreement to have an open relationship or add a person to their relationship in order to save their marriage (perhaps due to lack of sexual interest on the part of one partner), then this arrangement is acceptable for them. I see no reason however for one partner to decide that it is acceptable to have sex with another person without their partner's permission.

I am certain that I could be misinterpreting some of his reasoning for his opinion and I am sure that I do not communicate my position well - but we agreed and disagreed on some of these points. I also suspect men and women view this issue differently. What do you think?

I'm not convinced that people will usually cheat if they get the opportunity. The last statistics I saw were that 50% of married men and 25% of married women will have committed adultery by the time they are 40. And I think my parents, in spite of their marriage being in deep trouble, would sooner have died than be unfaithful. Much depends on the person, their upbringing and attitudes, their age and wisdom.

But numbers are one thing, the moral position is another. Personally I'm a lot more comfortable when the people around me see infidelity as a fall from grace which is ultimately harmful. Even if the indiscretion is never discovered and the offending party isn't debilitated through guilt feelings, they're unlikely to be able to show the same strength of day-to-day commitment to the official partner, because there's always this other person to compare the spouse with, and a spouse can't easily compete with a lover - the latter has a much easier ride in many ways, as they don't have to live with the person 24/7, they don't have all the mundane problems of that to bog them down, and it's hard for a partner of say 10 years to excite their spouse in the same way as a lover could. It might be thought that guilt can help make a partner behave better to the spouse, but in my experience guilt is not a good driver for a wholesome relationship, because it's essentially nothing more than self-loathing.

I don't know if there's a difference between what men and women think about infidelity. Before contraception and DNA evidence, I suppose women had a lot more to lose, and certainly while I was growing up men would usually speak of sex in more liberal tones while women were more "prudish" about it. But by the 1970s, girls seemed a lot more sexualised, and I think a lot of men had trouble coming to terms with that, because they'd become dependent on women having a strong sense of sexual guilt, and were used to "naturally faithful" partners who they could criticise for being "unliberated," while quietly enjoying the security that such an arrangement offered. I think that we have so much diversity these days that it's hard to generalise.