Narcissists are attractive

Post Reply New Topic

Well, "selfishness" does but I don't believe 'self-importance' does. It would seem possible to think of yourself as being fairly important while also not diminishing the importance of others, while it seems possible to think of yourself as unimportant while also thinking everybody else is unimportant. Imagine comparing a self-loving mother theresa figure ("I'm sent from god, and it's my mission to help starving ethiopian children!") to a self-loathing misanthropist.

maybe the spate of broken mirrors, and the influx of "facial laceration" admissions to hospitals is indicative of a rise in the prevalence of narcissism.

i do not really care what i see in mirrors because it is all back to front in there.

this reminded me of how if i'm checking my reflection in the mirror before going out, i do it by looking at it reflected in another mirror. it seems more accurate and i find it easier to 'see'.
maybe i'm a narcissist

You do that to check your butt?

no, my face or hair or something

that is possible, yes. they are perhaps not mutually exclusive.

it is difficult to calculate how to see my face (not in mirror image) with mirrors. opposing mirrors always show me the back of what i want to see.

Whenever I take acid I remember that I'm God, which I think fairly diagnoses narcissism. I don't do the blatant manipulation stuff but I think that's just because I find it tacky. I always know what I'm doing though. If I can see the shape of someone's ego and know exactly how to make them feel comfortable, and I know that if I do that they'll like me, and then I do it... then what does that say? I want other people to be happy because I know that we're indivisible (that's an autism thing). The only thing I feel when I make people feel safe is the warm glow of my power (a narcissism thing). I've had psychopath friends, I used to tell them that the difference between us was that I could use the truth to manipulate people whereas they had to use lies.

Example from when I was confident: a girl walked past in the street clearly upset, so I stopped her, hugged her, gave her a cheeky smile and walked on. I know exactly how to use eye contact to make people feel things. That's not basic manipulation of the kind that gets you followers, but I only did it to feel powerful. This is a deeply confusing subject for me but I think the only way out is to regain my confidence and be a successful narcissist.

I think people are just people, fun people are fun, and things work better if you stay out of each other's heads and just take people for whatever they're appearing to be at that moment.

That is drive or ambition. Not narcissism. What you describe there isn't even ego until you apply that concept solely as an extension of yourself.



One does not need a desire to be superior to have drive or ambition, or an ability to excel.

And if you somehow had that desire....do you desire to be superior to what you were before? Over your environment? Or over other beings?

If its the first case, that is only an ample description of whats known as PROGRESS.
If that extends to the environment you have added desire for Achievement, or neutral omnipotence. Potential Apotheosis. (This is the most positive form of True Good and Progress in humanity).
If that extends to the third case, You have added Self Importance. If its over other beings so that you can influence, intimidate or coerce others that is bullying. And if that desire over others has the extensions of using destructive techniques, such as disenabling or tormenting them as opposed to proving yourself superior legitimately, than that is full on Oppression.

To be a narcissist, you require at least a willingness to go to the fourth bullying stage. If you are a true narcissist, with more than just a semblance of narcissistic traits, you require the fifth stage of Oppression. Also, in order to be a narcissist, you must also possess other negative traits that go beyond what is described here. (All related to sense of self and delusional mindset)

For example, if you Desire to Oppress people, but aren't doing it to prove superiority or some semblance of ego, but Simply desire for a sick level of Power, than you are not a narcissist. And if you desire to Oppress in order to enslave or enjoy another persons turmoil and suffering than you are a sadist and sociopath.



This is emotion. It has nothing to do with sense of self. It is an autonomous response.



This is not only factually incorrect, but also has nothing to do with whether someone is a narcissist or is even egocentric. You are over-thinking.
One can invest in others and get more out of it, if the person has an acute awareness of the situation and believes someone else will do it better.



If an individual is oppressive or destructive, then the argument of that person making life worse can possibly be a valid argument. Sometimes people falsely accuse others. However, if you accurately accuse someone, and they are left unchecked or unhindered in their actions, negative things will occur.



This comment doesn't make sense. Narcissists are by their nature deluded and therefore twisted. Only schizophrenics, and psychopaths have a higher threshold for a breakdown of reality than narcissists. Even a sadistic sociopath lacking psychopathic and narcissistic traits have a greater sense of reality. Though of course, a sadistic sociopath would be definitively evil.

Narcissism is more than ego. It requires that ego to excel past self far into delusion. You are no longer capable of seeing the forest from the trees. The self becomes something far more. They cannot picture an exterior environment/beings as having worth.



A narcissist is not immune to this emotion, They just see it differently. In fact, rational cold thinking is not something I would equate to a narcissist. A narcissist is usually filled with raw emotion. I would even argue, its that emotion that leads to their deluded sense of self.

No one said anything about a cold-thinking being positive or negative anyway. The purest form of being would lack all emotion. However, the purest form of being also lacks a sense of self. The purest being of all, is an aware entity that has no emotion and no sense of self. It is completely incorruptible. Purely algorithmic.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In theory a narcissist can appear attractive. However, I agree with you that narcissism itself is entirely unattractive. In fact, someone would have to be insane to be attracted to someone KNOWING they are narcissistic. Half of the requirements of the personality are inherently destructive. Anyone who loves destruction needs to reevaluate their philosophies and principles.

To aid in your own debate, and clarify my own arguments here are the criteria and requirements for a TRUE narcissist, aka someone listed as having NPD(Im using wikipedia because its a simple source for the information) :
Narcissism



Now, lets look at the traits more critically.

1. Is destructive. It has no semblance of reality. They simply want to be the best. More than being the best they MUST BE RECOGNIZED as being the best. It does not matter if they actually have the ability or talent and are truly the best. They want others to see them as the most superior in a group irregardless. This is because thats how they see themself.

2. Is delusional. Logic and reason is breaking down here. They have come to the conclusion that being the best means being supremely unstoppable, absolute and happy. The only way to achieve such a scenario would mean they are omniscient and omnipotent. They would need to be the abrahamic god and nothing less. This is pure delusion.

3. Is a destructive defense mechanism, a twisted form of a normal defense mechanism. It essentially allows them to ignore all logic, reason and exterior stimuli.

4. This is an extension of number 1. But they want others to be active about it. They Must be esteemed by others or they have a fit. Again, mindless and crazy.

5. An extension of number 1 and 4. They not only want that esteem, but that esteem had best result in favorable treatment. In their mind, they are best, so they deserve the biggest cut of pie out of everyone at all times. Again, mindless and destructive.

6. In simple vernacular: They don't give a s**t about others. What matters is them not you. People, to a narcissist, are disposable waste, good only to help them gain more than their fair share.

7. More delusion. They cannot recognize the values or worth of others.

8. In short, they are insatiable. They can and will never be pleased. This is really the single most problematic characterization. Its effectively the one that prevents them from stopping their narcissistic thoughts.

9. No comment needed. Pretty obvious that this will show up if they already match all the other traits. In fact, this is probably the only functioning aspect of their mindset. Bad traits nonetheless, but nothing truly specific to only a narcissist here.

Just look at these traits, than add them altogether. In doing so, you come across this point: Narcissism is more than just ego, arrogance, ambition, envy, desire, self-importance, selfishness, and greed. It is all those traits active to some degree simultaneously. It is arguably the SINGLE MOST DESTRUCTIVE MINDSET in the history of mankind.

I would trust all of these people more than I would trust a true narcissist to do good:

1. A Psychopath
2. A Sociopath
3. A Schizophrenic
4. A Greedy Elitist
5. A Sadist
6. A Self-Aggrandizing Merchant
7. A Politician



As you can see from the listed traits above you are not a narcissist. You have an inflated ego or grandiose sense of self-importance at most. And since you said this is when you take acid...then you might just have a drug problem, and nothing more. Not enough to be a narcissist.



That is not narcissism. Why you do it only for power I'm not sure. What that would even be I'm also not sure. Desiring power for doing what you said, in the way you described, may not even have a word for its characterization in the english language. Its possible you are also leaving out essential information. It definitely isn't narcissism.

The only reason a narcissist might do that, is if it meant they could use that person to do their every bidding or give them endless praise after-the-fact If their was no hope of manipulating that person to use later, a narcissist would have let that individual suffer alone, and would not have thought twice about it.

Last edited by Hero on 06 Nov 2011, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thanks Hero, great post.

See fraac, not a narcissist. If doing nice things for other people, that they clearly need, makes you feel powerful, keep it up. From your story, maybe you're just good at connecting to people through eye contact sometimes, and good at knowing when to give strangers hugs.

Strangers don't hug enough. Made me think of that man with the "Free Hugs" sign that stood in the street, then it went global. Made me cry when I saw that for the first time.

I can sometimes see what people need when they dont know it themselves. Thats just having good antennae.
And I feel powerful when I do nice things. I life saved a woman at our local pool and could have lived off the chemicals for weeks. Its endorphins, isn't it? Not narcissism.

Regain your confidence and practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

No! (I mean, thanks, and I'm sure you save swimmers for the right reasons, but...) if you believe you're God then you don't need disciples and you don't need to hurt anyone. Because you believe you're literally everyone and everything. Because you're a narcissist. I've had followers; they pissed me off because they were just following rather than thinking for themselves. This textbook version of narcissism where you transparently manipulate people so they can superficially adore you is either for nonautistics or for people who just aren't that smart. Needing to be actually loved, the real thing, and knowing how to get that when we're all connected - that's autistic narcissism on the scale of Jesus, or me, or whoever else understands psychological cause and effect.

It strikes me as perverse that you can judge some narcissists (or people of any label) to be bad simply because they're less smart at incorporating superrationality into manipulation, or because they have a shakier religious belief in themselves so they need to hurt people. And I hurt people all the time when I'm not fully confident.

Narcissists are very attractive when they're confident. It isn't an illusion, it's as genuine as anyone else being attractive. Maybe they'll change in the future, but you can say that for anyone.

Look...I gave you the list of the traits necessary to adequately label one as a narcissist. You simply do not fit.

Your desire to be classified as a narcissist is more unnerving then anything. It isn't something to be adored. Also, wishing to be a narcissist or trying to be one, doesn't make you a narcissist either.

First, while your not doing the best job of it, your attempting to apply logic to a narcissists thought pattern, and using god as an example. First, while a narcissist wants to be seen as a superior being(or taken to the extreme a supreme being), they don't usually see themselves as god. They see themselves akin to a god, but its using a different rationale. A narcissist does not say to himself I'm a god therefore I don't need anyone, or I'm a god worship me. They see themselves in an absolute unchanging position not a relative one.

They have no concept of reality. They live in pure delusion. Any reference to exterior beings is met with apathy, or simply does not come up in the first place. Everything is always in reference to themselves. The fact that you have stated just now that followers followed you and it pissed you off, goes against the very core of a narcissist. They don't care if people are idly following or thoughtfully deciding. It is the superficial response that arises demonstrating their 'superior self image' that matters. If they have 1 million followers who praise them and do as they ask, but do so idly, vs 1000 people who thoughtfully decide to follow, The narcissist will desire the 1million over the 1000. This is because it is superficially a superior number. This will register as grander scale to the narcissist and thus they will believe their abilities more significant as a result.

To put it simply. Narcissists don't care about loyalty. They care about indoctrination.

As for judging narcissism. I do argue that it is the single most destructive trait in all of humanity. Stalin, Mao, and many of those who have committed numerous significant atrocities in the form of genocide and more, against even their own people, have exhibited these traits. Now, most narcissists will not go to this extreme level of megalomania. However, to those that do, life becomes worthless. It's only worth is to supply the narcissist with their own delusion.

More ancient examples of narcissism include Xerxes II, Emperor Nero, and Chinese Emperor Qin. Some scholars suggest Alexander the Great as well.

Also, how about explaining or giving an example on what you believe is geniunely attractive about narcissism. As far as I can tell, the only people who would be attracted by it, are those seeking to be abused or enslaved. Right now your just saying they are, without giving argument as to why you believe that.

Right now, honestly, I think you are confusing ego, self-importance, Dominance, and ambition with Narcissism. They are not the same traits.

Ambition, is a mentality or approach related to extraordinary goals and ideas.
Ego, involves self-worth and dominance, but not in the ways or manners exhibited by a narcissist.
Self-importance is closely related to ego, and is a desire to propel oneself to a position of status. What it does not answer though, is how one went or goes about doing that, and what they do when they achieve such importance. You can have someone who treats others well and fairly but desires self-important. They would be the complete opposite of the narcissist.
Dominance is about being on top, but does not explain the degree to which you are on top, or in the manner you treat things while in that position.

Again, I think you are confusing concepts. You seem to have some obsessive to want to be a narcissist, and exhibit their traits. However, your actions in no way reflect those of the narcissist nor should you actually want to be seen that way. Such traits are inherently destructive. They have nothing to do with reality.

The reason their traits are destructive is because of the differences of their self-delusion in comparison to the reality of a situation. It is almost universally incorrect, and therefore makes the approach incorrect. When you get wrong answers, things have a tendency to go... well...wrong. Go figure.

That's a lot of words that you believe. What's your experience with autistic narcissists? I've already explained why I think they would be significantly different. I match all 9 traits apart from envy (why would I envy other people or care if they envy me? That one seems inconsistent). Not sure why you would assume I didn't.

Fraac,

Personally I'd be very suspicious of believing any self-analysis that comes after taking LSD. Sure it can 'open up your mind'. But, you say there is a correlation with taking (bought?) acid and remembering you're God. You are not analysing you, you're analysing what a potent little microdot did to your brain chemistry. The correlation tells you that. However much you may know about the chemistry of acid and about your own self and neurology, why would you trust an analysis shaped by a little external pill? It changes the 'you'. I'm also thinking you couldn't even know what it was exactly, you didn't make it did you? Did you watch it get made in a regulated way?

You say this autistic narcissist thing is deeply confusing to you. Have you thought about therapy? I'm sorry if that seems intrusive or presumptious but I think talk therapy with a good person might help.

You sound troubled so good luck anyway with being a successful narcissist, as long as you dont hurt people.

Envy is an emotional state. It is desire, plain and simple. Narcissists still have the capacity to desire. If they did not, they would have no reason to do the things they do. The difference between the narcissist and a normal individual, is a narcissist believes that the thing they desire is something promised, destined, or guaranteed to become theirs. If you were to say to them that they had no chance to acquire it, or it wasn't their place to acquire it, they would deny and tell you that you were wrong, or they would verbally attack you for the sentiment.

They want others to envy them, because it fits into their delusion mindset.

As a I said before, the logic of narcissists is terrible. Their reasoning is deluded. They believe that if they desire something, they get it. The idea that you can desire something without going after it, or desire something and never acquire it is lost on them.

Again, the only two types of people with a worse sense of reality are schizophrenics and those afflicted with psychosis. The reason these twp groups are not as dangerous(though can certainly still be quite dangerous), is because their delusions:
1) may not always be connected to their sense of self or their primal emotions, AND
2) Have distorted sense of input and output. (IE, they actually can't interface with reality. Everything they see or believe has the capacity to be wrong or chaotic).

Narcissists on the other hand, while they reject falsely their true reality, and allow their deluded reality to consume them, don't actually have anything wrong with their sensory input. Their sensory input is working correctly. The world is as their signals demonstrate. However, they are so consumed by their own image, they completely disregard the world around them. This means they have the same abilities as everyone else, but they are incapable of living in actual reality.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

However, to jump to your own made up definition of the autistic narcissist.

I'm not even sure such a thing is possible. Autism and Narcissism are virtual opposites. Autism generally results in an increase in sensory input, and a strong awareness to the world around you. This replaces the interconnectivity that allows for good social communication. Just look at the number of instances on WP, where autism causes one to completely disregard the sense of self. One's gender. One's own sexuality. Etc. This has everything to do with the theory of mind. That inability to see oneself as another person has everything to do with predicting a persons motivations. Other people will almost universally be registered as Different entities in the autistic mind. Look at all the complaint threads on Wrong Planet. So many have to do with feeling different, with being lonely and not being accepted. Each Seperate person someone with autism meets is being given a unique persona. Seperate from the self. This however, also makes it hard to find commonality.

In Narcissism, different entities either don't exist, or are merely extensions of themselves to be used accordingly to glorify their greater image. It is possible they put themselves in the other person's shoes so much, that they actually believe that person is an extension of themself, and therefore are only there to do what they say or how they act. Narcissism could possibly be classified as a theory of mind run rampant, that it overpowers all other signals and input in the brain. They may have too much information being reprocessed and reprocessed in their mind, leading to them rejecting their more novel external data. The data which would allow them to see other people as unique beings with their own worth.

Pastafarian, as far as I can tell the drugs just make me more aware of the assumptions I use the rest of the time. I'm seeing a therapist. Saw one, told him about autism and narcissism, he couldn't really understand. I doubt anyone could unless they were like me. Seeing another guy now, I'm just acting normal and letting him try to help deal with my depression. I'm hopeful.

Hero, you get quite close to describing me in many places though you're lacking the gestalt - again, I'm not sure why you would assume otherwise. I've never felt envy because I don't see other people as rivals. I'm like Faith from Buffy: "Want. Take. Have." Really sure you should recheck why envy would affect a narcissist. It seems like a secondary symptom, like stimming is for autistics.

I don't like seeing people being written off because of a label. It seems fear-based. If you get to know people they're harmless.