The Cure for Nice Guy Syndrome
The_Face_of_Boo
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Not necessarily sex, they might expect a relationship in return.
Relationship =/= sex.
Same thing applies, even if they are different, it's still a trade off. Being nice shouldn't be something that's done so you get something back.
The_Face_of_Boo
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Not necessarily sex, they might expect a relationship in return.
Relationship =/= sex.
Same thing applies, even if they are different, it's still a trade off. Being nice shouldn't be something that's done so you get something back.
Yeah same thing applies, was just clarifying it isn't always sex.
Not necessarily sex, they might expect a relationship in return.
Relationship =/= sex.
I think if one expects anything in return for kindness, well, it's not really kindness.
_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.
You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.
Not necessarily sex, they might expect a relationship in return.
Relationship =/= sex.
Same thing applies, even if they are different, it's still a trade off. Being nice shouldn't be something that's done so you get something back.
Yeah same thing applies, was just clarifying it isn't always sex.
With "serial nice guys" I'm inclined to think it's more a relationship. There is a certain type of faking niceness in the short term for sex, I see it in guys all the time.
What is the reason they do this? What is the heart of all this? It is our over-sexed, competitive culture in which people try to use and outdo each other that is the problem. Sex is considered a rite of passage in our culture and if one doesn't get it, can't get it, or chooses not to have sex until marriage he is made to feel like s**t.
Look at what you said Hale_Bopp and what you said Dantac.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6053024.html#6053024
Do you two see nothing wrong with what you said? Do you see how insane and crazy this is? If one feels like one has to be this hustler and get one over on others and this is truthfully how the culture is and success only comes from living this way then the culture is f****d up. This nice guy syndrome is one part of the interwoven fabric of this business oriented, hustling based culture. A nice guy is really another form of a hustler. Yet, both you and Dantac would play the same game as the nice guy but in a different form. It is the culture that is screwed up.
goldfish21
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What is the reason they do this? What is the heart of all this? It is our over-sexed, competitive culture in which people try to use and outdo each other that is the problem. Sex is considered a rite of passage in our culture and if one doesn't get it, can't get it, or chooses not to have sex until marriage he is made to feel like sh**.
Look at what you said Hale_Bopp and what you said Dantac.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6053024.html#6053024
Do you two see nothing wrong with what you said? Do you see how insane and crazy this is? If one feels like one has to be this hustler and get one over on others and this is truthfully how the culture is and success only comes from living this way then the culture is f**** up. This nice guy syndrome is one part of the interwoven fabric of this business oriented, hustling based culture. A nice guy is really another form of a hustler. Yet, both you and Dantac would play the same game as the nice guy but in a different form. It is the culture that is screwed up.
"Over sexed," is a relative term - relative to what you consider a normal amount of sex. Whatever your reference point, it doesn't automatically apply to the entire world or the entire society within which you live.
Sex has always been considered a rite of passage for those who are strong/type A/competitive - the winners. We've evolved that way for the perpetuation of the species via the strongest genes surviving and the weak not being able to procreate. It's the same in any animal species in the animal kingdom. This should not come as a surprise to you.
If you're not getting laid, whether by choice or not, no one can possibly make you feel like s**t but you. Emotions are dictated by thoughts, so if you feel like s**t it's because you're thinking sh***y thoughts and no one can think your thoughts but you. Stop blaming others and figure out how to improve your own thoughts, as you'll feel better for it.
Nice guys are necessarily Hustlers. But they could be. Usually what people refer to as nice guys are the weak/passive/timid who would bend over backwards to do something for others but can't seem to have social/dating/sexual success - largely because they haven't figured out the they're the opposite of the strong/dominant/aggressive/competitive/winning/alpha male type that women/potential partners find attractive.
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No
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cubedemon, the hustle goes back to forever, it's not something that suddenly developed in 20th-c. America. That's why the punishment for having screwy weights in your shop was death. You can read old hustle stories in the Torah, for crying out loud. Slave for a chick for 7 years? Done. Or something about a blind daddy on his deathbed and a birthright.
I'm guessing that somewhere in the motive for nicing women into sex is the fact that sex generally feels pretty fantastic. Also you can blame Christianity for w*k shame. If you're talking about young men, though, or young women, of course they want to try it, and of course they're going to be clumsy as hell about how they go about getting there. It's built up as the defining experience of adulthood, and not for no reason. You don't get children without it (generally), you don't become the parent generation without it, and there's a tremendous amount of ritual around it for that reason. "You have to trick the girl into it" is probably one of the most damaging notions we've got, but you're talking about very stupid and hormone-raddled post-children, and now that I think about it, it's responsible for the whole idea of sluts. After all, if you don't get to enjoy the idea that you made it happen, you got the win -- if she just fell into your lap on her own -- then the guy doesn't get to feel like such a champ.
Function of utter cluelessness. John Irving really had the right idea: what young men who aren't figuring it out for themselves really need are smart prostitutes. Someone a little imposing and classy, older, who'll teach them how to behave like a person in sex and to understand that they'll damn well respect the woman they screw. Getting there not a sure thing, but not utterly bewildering, either. It's in Robertson Davies, too, if polluted by Canadian primness. Must be a generational thing. Too bad the idea's gone away -- requires either less or more sexual frankness than we've got now, I guess.
Me, I was very lucky. Most of my sexual firsts were with a very sweet young man, and, now that I look back, I see that his hallmates -- who were also my friends, and protective of me -- approved of and were protective of the whole relationship, gave us space, let us be. I doubt very much he was egged on to go any faster than I wanted to go. It's hard to imagine most of them laying down locker-room assholery and impossible to imagine his being receptive to it. (I later found out that they'd been a sort of big-brother posse, and had actually shown up en masse at the door of a guy I'd dated earlier, gave him to understand he'd be treating me well. He disappeared pretty fast.) But it's not as though I had any clue, either. I think it's a much better thing, this sexual openness, so that daughters can talk to mothers and aunts rather than relying on utterly ignorant friends and whatever garbage is online.
Nice guys are necessarily Hustlers. But they could be. Usually what people refer to as nice guys are the weak/passive/timid who would bend over backwards to do something for others but can't seem to have social/dating/sexual success - largely because they haven't figured out the they're the opposite of the strong/dominant/aggressive/competitive/winning/alpha male type that women/potential partners find attractive.
How about an assertive guy instead? That's the moderate mid-ground between the two words in bold.
The "assertive guy" is a genuine nice-guy who's tough and responsible. He also sticks up for himself and others(if they deserve it).
The_Face_of_Boo
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The type of prostitutes you are suggesting already exist, they call them "escorts" or "high class escorts".
I'm guessing that somewhere in the motive for nicing women into sex is the fact that sex generally feels pretty fantastic. Also you can blame Christianity for w*k shame. If you're talking about young men, though, or young women, of course they want to try it, and of course they're going to be clumsy as hell about how they go about getting there. It's built up as the defining experience of adulthood, and not for no reason. You don't get children without it (generally), you don't become the parent generation without it, and there's a tremendous amount of ritual around it for that reason. "You have to trick the girl into it" is probably one of the most damaging notions we've got, but you're talking about very stupid and hormone-raddled post-children, and now that I think about it, it's responsible for the whole idea of sluts. After all, if you don't get to enjoy the idea that you made it happen, you got the win -- if she just fell into your lap on her own -- then the guy doesn't get to feel like such a champ.
Function of utter cluelessness. John Irving really had the right idea: what young men who aren't figuring it out for themselves really need are smart prostitutes. Someone a little imposing and classy, older, who'll teach them how to behave like a person in sex and to understand that they'll damn well respect the woman they screw. Getting there not a sure thing, but not utterly bewildering, either. It's in Robertson Davies, too, if polluted by Canadian primness. Must be a generational thing. Too bad the idea's gone away -- requires either less or more sexual frankness than we've got now, I guess.
Me, I was very lucky. Most of my sexual firsts were with a very sweet young man, and, now that I look back, I see that his hallmates -- who were also my friends, and protective of me -- approved of and were protective of the whole relationship, gave us space, let us be. I doubt very much he was egged on to go any faster than I wanted to go. It's hard to imagine most of them laying down locker-room assholery and impossible to imagine his being receptive to it. (I later found out that they'd been a sort of big-brother posse, and had actually shown up en masse at the door of a guy I'd dated earlier, gave him to understand he'd be treating me well. He disappeared pretty fast.) But it's not as though I had any clue, either. I think it's a much better thing, this sexual openness, so that daughters can talk to mothers and aunts rather than relying on utterly ignorant friends and whatever garbage is online.
Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 14 May 2014, 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the reason they do this? What is the heart of all this? It is our over-sexed, competitive culture in which people try to use and outdo each other that is the problem. Sex is considered a rite of passage in our culture and if one doesn't get it, can't get it, or chooses not to have sex until marriage he is made to feel like sh**.
the heart of it seems to me to be that many males don't seem to see any benefit to having female friends other than that they might someday get to sleep with them. why can't men find value in the idea of having a friend who is a woman that they are not sexually attracted to--you know, someone to talk to, hang out with, and share ideas and stuff without having sex? seems to me that many young males have trouble recognising that females that they're not physically attracted to are real whole people and might be worth their attention as human beings, and not sex-vending machines into which one inserts "kindness" to get p***y.
if one's intentions are desperate and grasping and wheedling, then does one not deserve the label?
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That kind of misses the point, though. The point is that in today's society, being frank and direct is verboten. You have to beat around the bush. You go up to someone and say, "hey, I like you and I would like to date you," what do you think is gonna happen? It has nothing to do with being desperate. It has EVERYTHING to do with people not wanting to be direct, nor wanting others to be direct. If you're direct, it means commitment, and commitment scares the s**t out of people.
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