Are relationships always this complicated?

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Yeah, maybe I didn't get that women don't think the same way men do. I thought in a way I was helping because she had already been talking about how she was trying to lose weight (without my prompting) and it reminded me of a couple of years ago, when I mentioned to a freind that I was trying to lose weight and he gave me a tip that really helped me. I wasn't insulted by his tip, I took it as helpful advice. As for gf, we had already discussed her weight loss plans several times before that without her taking offence. Then that one time she started sobbing and it took me by surprise.I said that too her and she said she's continue to lose weight without my advice. She said she's rather her health be her own responsibility. This came a few days after we'd had a conversation about how she was concerned about my health and she wanted to help me with it. At first I found her concern touching but I got annoyed when one of her "health tips" was that temazepam sleeping pills are bad and then she was demanding that I promise never to take them again (I refused to make that promise, I haven't seen those pills since, I suspect she threw them out while she was cleaning). So a few days later we have this argument where she says we should just be responsible for our own health and I tell her in that case she can't tell me not to take sleeping pills anymore. She hasn't brought that issue up since.The trouble is I'm not sure if I do. I mean, sometimes I do. Sometimes I can see us spending the rest of our lives together and sometimes I feel like I need to escape from her. Desciveness is not one of my strong points. Last year I spent a month agonising over whether I should buy a Sony phone or a Sansung phone and this is even harder. Whenever I try to choose between two things I keep flipping back and forth.

I started this thread not because I was looking for tips on how to objectivy her but because I was trying to decide if I should leave her or stay with her. There could be problems between us that aren't related to her apperance. I know that's it's wrong to try and force a relationship but there where times when I didn't need to force it. And there were times when I was plotting my endgame. The problem with it is that in some ways she wants to take it too fast for me. I think I'm right is that the whole point in dating is to spend a few months to see if you're right for eachother before making more serious commitments. I want to get to know her over a longer period of time without feeling locked in. I could better decide if I'd known her for more than a few weeks and I think most girls wouldn't be trying to move in after ten days.Not always with her, after she's said her peice and I try to expain herself she tends to day "Why do you keep talking about it?" I hate that cheap tactic. Other people have used it on me too.Done that. She watched the Animal Crossing: New Leaf trailer and her face lit up and she started talking about how great it was. I bought it for her. I'll give it to her the next time I see her.Yeah, I guess they would be. Even though this isn't going great I feel like I'm leaning a lot. I can learn just as much from my mistakes as I can from my successes. Is it wrong of me to stay with her for a while to gain experience? I've heard many on L&D lemant they could commence a relationship if only they had the experience or even girls rejected them for no reason besides that. I feel this could be my chance to break the catch-22. But on the other hand I can't help but feel a pang of guilt that I'm using her. Letting her down gently is no small task. She tends to get overtly emotional at the smallest provocation.You know once she said she thought we could just be friends? That sounds nice but if we ever break up, I don't think she'll be so friendly.Yeah, it's nice to actually have a reason for being on L&D for once. I used to treat it as the complaining about being single board but I don't think that's why it was set up.For the record I had my first kiss when I was 21 but that was an even more screwed up story than this one (albiet a much shorter one) so maybe I shouldn't count that (and I came so close that time when I was 26 but the one that got away doesn't count).I hate it when that happens. It's hard enough for me to choose between two brands let alone two women.

I think I missed my second chance with the girl at work a couple of weeks ago. I coldly ignored her advances because I was already dating.

She would've been nice too, she's sophisticated and very smart. I'm not sure if I could be in a real relationship with her due to her extreme sensory issues though (no not touch, she's extremely sensitive to sound. I don't hold it against her but it would make things challenging).I'm close but I'm not frustrated. If I'm edging closer to my goal I consider that to be a good thing.

I've been wondering if there's a place for me to meet single women other than dating sites because many of the ones on dating sites seem to be a bit insane.

طنجرة ولاقت غطاها

"The pot found its cover".

I felt the same way about my crazy ex and someone told me "if you are this doubtful in the honeymoon stage of your relationship: GET OUT NOW. It will not get any better." Sound advice I wished I listen to but my poor self-worth prevented me from doing what I should have done.


Yes, as much as I am critical of my BPD ex there WAS a lot of learning in that relationship: I learned how to treat a woman (gently), how to be romantic and *ahem* how to make her scream in a good way. I've got a bit of a news flash for you: there is no background check in dating and it's better to have no experience than bad experience. Besides, if she rejects you for inexperience (which one women DID do to me) she did you a big favour! Believe me I have dated both and the virgin was far more enjoyable than the one who has been screwed over figuratively and literally and has a jaded attitude towards men. Don't make the same mistake I did and end it sooner rather than later. Yes, she will probably beg you to take her back and even threaten suicide/self-harm but if you stick in a toxic relationship, YOU could eventually be the one who wants to die.

One thing I CAN suggest from all my dating experience is that women love bold men. In the recent past, I have tried to initiate intimacy and was gently stopped but those same women respected me for having the guts to try. Don't do anything illegal or immoral but don't be afraid to show your masculinity a bit. What's really helped me incredibly enough is learning to stand tall, smile and say hello to women you meet on the street, married or not. That attracts the ladies like a magnet. Tell her flat out to treat you with respect and that you will not put up with her crap and mean it: remember if she is BPD (and nothing has given me any reason to doubt that) you are essentially dealing with a young child in an adult body.


Even though I found my current GF online, I still think it's a bad option in general as most are either insane or VERY ambivalent. I would suggest just trying new things and one thing will lead to another (in other words, just be interested in trying new activities). For me, I joined a running club. The women are generally older (like my current GF) but are friendly, in great shape and usually will approach you first. Most runners are women and many are single and on my latest race, the girls know a guy running a race in brutally cold conditions (-17C) is a keeper. Even though a couple of the girls who I talked to WERE in relationships, I am better understand and converse women in general without using them in a selfish manner.

As a final note, I mentioned to my GF about my former friend (and I added in some stuff you said) and told her that he is looking for a 'good enough' woman just to get experience. I know a real life version of you and would swear you were him if you were 33 and in Canada! She got a shocked look and said "I would be HORRIFIED if you were dating me for that reason. I would be so hurt: I want to be with someone who sees me as more than practice" to which I quickly assured her I desire a committed relationship with a committed woman. There's your answer right there from a real, normal, flesh and blood human female.

I was speaking about people who stop looking for relationships and then magically find them, how that concept works.

Everyone will have some relationships before they are theoretically ready for one; that is part of the learning process.

But, yes, I'm talking about emotional / developmental readiness, not objective criteria like age or financial status.

And ... I don't think I can explain what I'm trying to say without writing a book ... yikes, it all gets complicated fast; so much nuance is involved ...

But would your subsequent girlfriends have liked you the same if you hadn't already learned these lessons with Miss BPD?

There may not be a background check but I expect women still like it when a guy is gentle, romantic and good in bed.Yes but do women feel that way about men?Something I'm working on.That's good to know. So they won't think I'm a creep if I try.So there's a way to tell they're single right? Because sometimes I've known young women for months without them mentioning they had a boyfriend yet they had one all along. It's easier to confirm a positive than a negative.Yes I know that any woman would be horrified to be used in such a way but I'm not doing it to impress current gf, I'm doing it to impress the girl(s) who follow. They wouldn't like it either, if they were to know what I'm doing now but they don't need to know. As you said, there is no background check in dating. They can think my ex was just a normal relationship that failed of it's own accord.Hence I'm in one now.Why I need experience.

Some things can't be learned from a book. Some knowledge can't be passed down but must instead be rediscovered. That's why every generation thinks they invented sex

I have yet to observe anyone create a healthy and happy relationship by force or force of desire. Yes, you always have to make an effort to have a relationship and, yes, relationships take "work," but that all is different from "I want a relationship and therefore I will create one with this person regardless of how attracted we are to each other and regardless of how well we get along."

Over time I've developed a pretty good test for knowing who has started a relationship that will last and be healthy, and it is a really simple and not-so-obvious one: the minute someone tells me that being with person X seems so "easy," I know there is something real there. You can have the craziest mishaps on a date or with a person and, yet, once you are with the right person, it all feels natural and "easy." No one who has been happily married long term describes the kind of angst that exists through out your posts. That doesn't happen in "good" relationships. So, I believe it is true for everyone: you can't "make" a good relationship happen. You find it.

There is nothing wrong with having practice relationships you know aren't the real thing, but in the cost-benefit analysis that is life, they shouldn't be destructive or counter-productive. When you force the issue too much even in your dating/practice stage, it can get really destructive and counter-productive.



This sounds like something to be worked through with a therapist you like and trust, not by trying to find the right arm ornament in the dating world. Shoot, half the time dating will just make your psyche and level of self-esteem worse.

Acting like a grown up and gaining self-esteem isn't about acquiring the right ornaments, it is about exercising solid judgment. Developing your reasoning skills and perspective on life should be your goal; challenging yourself in ways that help your personal development; not getting the most presentable girlfriend.



It isn't a great example, but it is the one that comes to the top of my head: I once tried teaching as a volunteer, and a new student came into our class trying to act like and use the language of a currently popular musician. Everything he did was inappropriate for the time and place and the kids quickly turned away from him. All he wanted was to be accepted, but he had no understanding of what it took to be accepted.

The point really is that I've noticed it is a losing game when you do things only because you think that is what others want from you.


When I wrote that I was thinking less of how you see yourself, than how articles say narcissists typically act in relationships, only caring what outside parties think, for example


You keep describing outright efforts at manipulation by her. That, by itself, is the reason to question the relationship, not whether or not others will find her intelligent or mature. I know she is depressed and has her own issues, but it helps no one when she tries to make you co-dependent inside her own problems. Those are relationships that should be broken for the mental health of both involved, in my humble opinion. Which is what I said in my first post here, before digressing into all the other problems you seem to have.

If you intend to stay in this relationship because there are good parts and you want practice, then you have to shut the manipulation down. Build a boundary and stick to it; those aren't going to be areas where you talk it out, they will be areas where you say, "I can't do that for you," "I don't think that would be the right thing for our relationship," or "I disagree with you that being in a relationship means X."

So I still have to actively search to find one? Not just wait to bump into someone?So much for my wasted adolescence. That would have been a good time to have such a relationship with minimal destructive consequences.I need a better therapist. The one I've got just keeps telling me everything is fine. I don't feel fine. When I told her I had career envy she just said "Oh but you've got a good job now so everything's fine". I thought I could solve my other problems in the same way.

I agree, you need a better therapist. Her telling you something is fine isn't going to make it feel fine to you; she is supposed to delve into WHY you don't feel like it is fine.

Instead of actively searching for a relationship, I think it makes more sense to pursue your hobbies and interests in a way that will allow you to practically bump into them. Driving solo in a car to work is less "open" than taking public transportation, for example (I dated 3 different guys I met commuting on a ferry to work back in the day; just people I ended up sitting next to). Joining groups is more "open" than pursuing things on your own. And so on. You can't make relationships happen, but you can live your life in such a way that increases the odds of them happening organically.

Can anyone summarize to me the progress of this thread? (no more than 1 sentence).

Most women that I have known, want you to be honest with them, unless it's something they don't want to hear.

I'm mentally and emotionally ready, mostly. there are parts that I will need to adjust to but can't do without being in a relationship and exposed to the challenges.

I've never had any relationships, kinda screws me over right.



stuff happen and things were said.

Hmmm. I'm not sure if that works for me. I catch the train to work. I see many beautiful young women on the train. We sit in silence.

Sometimes one of them will look at me. Usually one sitting a few rows from me. A different girl each time. Sometimes they stares blankly, sometimes she stares and smiles. I don't know if it's because they like me or if they're thinking "why is that weird guy furtively glancing at me?". Even if they were into me I'm not quite sure how to respond back nonverbally. Someone on Yahoo Answers suggested mouthing "Hi". Typically these girls are outside of speaking range and I'm even worse at giving signals than I am at reading them.

If it's a nearly empty train it would seem weird for me to sit right next to one. If it's a nearly full train a young woman will occasionally sit next to me. We sit in silence and I watch as she reads on her Samsung Galaxy Note (girls nearly always have those, I think because they're purse sized). Often they're also listening to music on headphones, which doesn't help much. The problem is nowadays people have all these social isolation devices e.g. phablets, headphones, etc. I find it to be frustrating and dehumanizing (though I must admit I'm equally guilty since on the train I'm often either on my 3DS or my laptop. Actually I'm typing this on the train right now (no there aren't any twentyager women sitting near me at the moment).Hmmm. Didn't work in the past. When I was 20 I almost hit it off with this girl at TAFE (technical college). I thought going back there would help but I find night classes to be a very different experience. No one socializes in night classes. We sit in silence.I know the feeling. A real catch-22. That's why I'm still beating this dead horse. I will see her again tonight.

did you just call her a dead horse :'(

But he asked for a report on the PROGRESS. Oh wait yeah, you pretty much covered it.

That's stereotyping, what if there are women who love BS? ;p

So I tried to ignore your thread, but your situation is seriously f****d up. If you want to "practice" dating skills, maybe you should start by learning how to be a halfway decent guy to women. In other words, by not leading them on? Seriously, you need to get over your fear of being alone and end things with this girl. Things will get way worse if you don't, I can promise you that.