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What is misogyny? What is misandry?

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hurtloam
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02 Oct 2017, 12:37 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
LegoMaster2149 wrote:
lostonearth35 wrote:
Just the other evening I read about all the torture devices primarily used throughout history used primarily by men to abuse, torture and kill women. Like sawing them in half while they hang upside down or tearing their breasts off, or husband forcing their wives to wear a scold for the horrific sin of gossiping. The scold usually had spikes that fit inside the wearer's mouth to make talking very painful, but even worse was the psychological torture the wife would suffer by being cursed at, spat on and have rocks thrown at her as she was paraded around town.

Sewing genitals shut.

Stoning (as in throwing rocks at you until you were dead)

And naturally, rape is the oldest and most repulsive torture of all.

I read that ISIS performs some of these tortures on women today.

Anything to break a woman's spirit and force her into submission. :x

After reading that article I had to remind myself of the men I know who are kind, loving husbands and fathers, like my dad and my brother so I wouldn't think of all males as wanting to still do this to females today if they were allowed. :(


That is shocking to hear that. It shows that for a long time that a lot men have been doing their best to dominate women so that they can be in control. But things are changing for the better. Women can vote, get jobs, and a lot of other things that before which seemed like a dream for them. And I hope the misogyny and misandry will eventually decrease.


Want to hear something else that's shocking? Millions and millions of men have died in war, wars they had no choice but to participate in.


They do have a choice. They can be conscientious objectors. Though depending on where you are that might end in endless imprisonment or certain death rather than a few years in the military and possible death.

Kinda bad all round. Unless you live somewhere like the UK. Or even South Africa will offer community service for conscientious objectors.



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02 Oct 2017, 12:41 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
LegoMaster2149 wrote:
lostonearth35 wrote:
Just the other evening I read about all the torture devices primarily used throughout history used primarily by men to abuse, torture and kill women. Like sawing them in half while they hang upside down or tearing their breasts off, or husband forcing their wives to wear a scold for the horrific sin of gossiping. The scold usually had spikes that fit inside the wearer's mouth to make talking very painful, but even worse was the psychological torture the wife would suffer by being cursed at, spat on and have rocks thrown at her as she was paraded around town.

Sewing genitals shut.

Stoning (as in throwing rocks at you until you were dead)

And naturally, rape is the oldest and most repulsive torture of all.

I read that ISIS performs some of these tortures on women today.

Anything to break a woman's spirit and force her into submission. :x

After reading that article I had to remind myself of the men I know who are kind, loving husbands and fathers, like my dad and my brother so I wouldn't think of all males as wanting to still do this to females today if they were allowed. :(


That is shocking to hear that. It shows that for a long time that a lot men have been doing their best to dominate women so that they can be in control. But things are changing for the better. Women can vote, get jobs, and a lot of other things that before which seemed like a dream for them. And I hope the misogyny and misandry will eventually decrease.


Want to hear something else that's shocking? Millions and millions of men have died in war, wars they had no choice but to participate in.


They do have a choice. They can be conscientious objectors. Though depending on where you are that might end in endless imprisonment or certain death rather than a few years in the military and possible death.

Kinda bad all round. Unless you live somewhere like the UK. Or even South Africa will offer community service for conscientious objectors.


Well that's effectively the same as not having a choice lol.



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02 Oct 2017, 12:50 pm

hurtloam wrote:
They do have a choice. They can be conscientious objectors. Though depending on where you are that might end in endless imprisonment or certain death rather than a few years in the military and possible death.

Kinda bad all round. Unless you live somewhere like the UK. Or even South Africa will offer community service for conscientious objectors.

And hold the stigma of a coward, interfering with your social position, access to the opposite sex and carrier...
Like a female rejecting strict rules of her community may hold a stigma of a slut, not worth caring for.


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Chichikov
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02 Oct 2017, 12:53 pm

You don't need to be a conscientious objector in the UK, there is no compulsory military service so if you don't want to do it you just don't. There is no stigma or shame to never having been in the military in the UK.



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02 Oct 2017, 1:22 pm

Chichikov wrote:
You don't need to be a conscientious objector in the UK, there is no compulsory military service so if you don't want to do it you just don't. There is no stigma or shame to never having been in the military in the UK.


And women don't get tortured today either, we were speaking historically.



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02 Oct 2017, 1:40 pm

Chichikov wrote:
You don't need to be a conscientious objector in the UK, there is no compulsory military service so if you don't want to do it you just don't. There is no stigma or shame to never having been in the military in the UK.

But isn't it weird that even in a supposedly progressive Europe there's still some countries with compulsory military service for men?

Still, you could argue that it's not an example of misandry, but rather misogyny, because women were kept out of it not because they were protected, but because they were considered as not fit for army.

Not only compulsory military service for women is really rare, but there's examples where laws don't allow women to join army. Just a week ago there was a story in the news that a first woman completed US marines infantry training course. Even in US before last year, women weren't allowed to join some branches of army. And in Russia, where there's compulsory military service for men, only from this year they will allow women in air force and in some positions of navy.

I don't know if it's misogyny or misandry, but it certainly is sexist to ban someone from joining army based on their gender.



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02 Oct 2017, 1:41 pm

It would be false to say that both men and women don't get tortured.

It would be a fair statement to say that actual torture is proportionately less than in....say...the 1500's.

But tell that to somebody being tortured....



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02 Oct 2017, 2:05 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It would be false to say that both men and women don't get tortured.

It would be a fair statement to say that actual torture is proportionately less than in....say...the 1500's.

But most torturers were men. And probably even now most torturers are men. Would it be sexist to say that women are worse torturers?



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02 Oct 2017, 2:13 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Didn't they pass a law in Russia to allow women to kill their rapists?

I wonder, what if a woman killed a man for some other motive and then claimed that he attempted to rape her?

I'm not sure about this specific law, but I would not be surprised if judge would justify killing the attacker during the act of rape.

This person would have to prove that rape really happened.



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02 Oct 2017, 2:16 pm

314pe wrote:
But isn't it weird that even in a supposedly progressive Europe there's still some countries with compulsory military service for men?

Not really. Maybe the reason we're so apathetic to losing our freedoms and our identity is because we've never had to fight for them.

314pe wrote:
I don't know if it's misogyny or misandry, but it certainly is sexist to ban someone from joining army based on their gender.

Why does it have to be any of those things? It's neither, just common sense. It's sad that these days anything non-liberal has to be forced into a pejorative box.



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02 Oct 2017, 2:18 pm

314pe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
It would be false to say that both men and women don't get tortured.

It would be a fair statement to say that actual torture is proportionately less than in....say...the 1500's.

But most torturers were men. And probably even now most torturers are men. Would it be sexist to say that women are worse torturers?


I think he's probably referring to FGM. Seems to be matriarchal women who actually push the tradition rather than men.



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02 Oct 2017, 2:22 pm

314pe wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
You don't need to be a conscientious objector in the UK, there is no compulsory military service so if you don't want to do it you just don't. There is no stigma or shame to never having been in the military in the UK.

But isn't it weird that even in a supposedly progressive Europe there's still some countries with compulsory military service for men?

Still, you could argue that it's not an example of misandry, but rather misogyny, because women were kept out of it not because they were protected, but because they were considered as not fit for army.

Not only compulsory military service for women is really rare, but there's examples where laws don't allow women to join army. Just a week ago there was a story in the news that a first woman completed US marines infantry training course. Even in US before last year, women weren't allowed to join some branches of army. And in Russia, where there's compulsory military service for men, only from this year they will allow women in air force and in some positions of navy.

I don't know if it's misogyny or misandry, but it certainly is sexist to ban someone from joining army based on their gender.


To argue that the military is misogynistic is absolutely completely insane.



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02 Oct 2017, 2:27 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
314pe wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
You don't need to be a conscientious objector in the UK, there is no compulsory military service so if you don't want to do it you just don't. There is no stigma or shame to never having been in the military in the UK.

But isn't it weird that even in a supposedly progressive Europe there's still some countries with compulsory military service for men?

Still, you could argue that it's not an example of misandry, but rather misogyny, because women were kept out of it not because they were protected, but because they were considered as not fit for army.

Not only compulsory military service for women is really rare, but there's examples where laws don't allow women to join army. Just a week ago there was a story in the news that a first woman completed US marines infantry training course. Even in US before last year, women weren't allowed to join some branches of army. And in Russia, where there's compulsory military service for men, only from this year they will allow women in air force and in some positions of navy.

I don't know if it's misogyny or misandry, but it certainly is sexist to ban someone from joining army based on their gender.


To argue that the military is misogynistic is absolutely completely insane.


C'mon you know fine well women were seen as too weak to fight.

It's a slur to say to a man, "you fight like a woman."

We also know that forcing men to join isn't equality either. We aren't ignoring that. But you seem to be ignoring how long women weren't even allowed to join up.



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02 Oct 2017, 2:35 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
314pe wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
You don't need to be a conscientious objector in the UK, there is no compulsory military service so if you don't want to do it you just don't. There is no stigma or shame to never having been in the military in the UK.

But isn't it weird that even in a supposedly progressive Europe there's still some countries with compulsory military service for men?

Still, you could argue that it's not an example of misandry, but rather misogyny, because women were kept out of it not because they were protected, but because they were considered as not fit for army.

Not only compulsory military service for women is really rare, but there's examples where laws don't allow women to join army. Just a week ago there was a story in the news that a first woman completed US marines infantry training course. Even in US before last year, women weren't allowed to join some branches of army. And in Russia, where there's compulsory military service for men, only from this year they will allow women in air force and in some positions of navy.

I don't know if it's misogyny or misandry, but it certainly is sexist to ban someone from joining army based on their gender.


To argue that the military is misogynistic is absolutely completely insane.


C'mon you know fine well women were seen as too weak to fight.

It's a slur to say to a man, "you fight like a woman."

We also know that forcing men to join isn't equality either. We aren't ignoring that. But you seem to be ignoring how long women weren't even allowed to join up.


Fair enough, but getting the opportunity to die in war is not something to envy.

The military is also incredibly gynocentric. You might view it the way you do, but there's another perspective which is: We are simply more okay with men dying in war, because we view men as more disposable.

Man: "Hey women, we don't want you to join the military, because we don't want anything to happen to you, and we want to protect you, even if we die doing so".

woman: "sexist! are you saying I am weak!?"



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02 Oct 2017, 2:45 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
The military is also incredibly gynocentric. You might view it the way you do, but there's another perspective which is: We are simply more okay with men dying in war, because we view men as more disposable.

From the survivalist point of view they are.
I mean, one man and 10 women can have the same number of offspring as 10 men and 10 women, but 10 men and 1 woman won't have significantly more kids than 1 man and 1 woman.
Our species didn't evolve in ever-lasting peace and safety, so we do carry some burden from the past.
Probably not exactly fit for our time, civilisation and philosophy.


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02 Oct 2017, 3:01 pm

Ha. Do we want to get into how I really view the military?

I was raised by unconventional hippies so there's a clue.