Some questions for Incels after the Toronto van attack

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I sometimes get compared to Elliot Rodger when I express my struggles in getting a girlfriend and it's a terrible comparison. My feelings are more like "Have I fallen too far behind? How much longer until I finally meet the girl of my dreams? Is she here somewhere? Will I have to become like the jerks to be successful?" while he was more angry that women weren't bowing down to him and also having complexes about being half-Asian. He and I are worlds apart.

The overall viewpoint among incel communities is that suggesting they go to prostitutes and sex workers is an insult, as they should not have to pay for what other men can get for free.

The overall viewpoint among sex workers is that they don't want to be anywhere near hostile men whose inner lives are consumed by rape fantasies, revenge porn, and hatred.

I know, which is why I addressed the forum with the question.

Several posters have indicated that neither therapy, nor male friendships, nor self-improvement will help these men. So, what's the answer?

I was referring to males teasing other males about their lack of sex life, not to incels egging each other on. Big difference.

No man teases another man about not getting laid with the intent of spurring him to commit murder.

Unhinged incels on a forum of their own? They encourage that behaviour, apparently. And they openly encourage it. They're not doing a little light hearted teasing and having unintended consequences.

IMHO, most of the time, women who throw the Elliot Rodgers comparisons at lonely men are misandrists.

One of the reasons I hang around in L&D (as annoying as I can be sometimes), is so that, as a mod, I can learn to spot the differences between lonely, frustrated people, and toxic posters.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the other post responding to this comment of mine that was straw man after straw man. I can't make a dent in such cynical black and white thinking and misrepresentation of what I said, and I'm not even going to bother trying.

Asking questions and trying to understand the many points your post didn't make very clear to me is not strawmanning. I get that you refuse to debate with me, so I won't try to do it again, but don't expect me to accept your backhanded parting shot.

Doesn't require much else besides reading what they write.

Are there "hidden depths" that we are unaware of?

Governments, by nature, never miss a chance to expand their control over the private lives of their citizens. Terrorism has made fo sar a great excuse for them to get their dirty hands on every means of communication they can, and incel terrorism won’t be any different. True, determined criminals will always find a way to carry out their plans, but the freedom of law-abiding citizens will certainly be curtailed when we’re forbidden to use some technology or other, or to visit some part or other of the Internet to keep our privacy, in case we’re incel terrorists planning our next crimes.

Muslims have already been made into scapegoats by plenty of Western people, and all sorts of institutions discriminate blatantly against them. It’s no stretch of the imagination that government surveillance of private communications probably targets them more than other people. There’s no reason why the same won’t happen to incels from now on, whether we “identify” with this label or not. Someone was recently arrested on a plane for writing differential equations, which another passenger mistook for Arabic writing, and therefore a sign that he was probably a terrorist. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone were arrested soon for drawing a single heart. Worse yet, a comic strip like this combines both lonely hearts and math, including differential equations, so anyone caught looking at it must be very suspicious:


Like The_Face_of_Boo said, and just like you, I’d rather be safe than sorry. But I get it doesn’t concern you and you dismiss it as “disingenuous”, which would definitely be considered an insult and, hence, against WrongPlanet’s rules if other people, like probably myself, said it. Therefore, I accept there’s no more discussing this issue with you.



I really doubt that. If I thought getting laid or being in relationships were the only worthwhile things in life, I’d have no reason not to commit suicide long ago, but they’re certainly the only things I want in and of themselves as far as human interaction is concerned. Anything else is either a means to another end or a nuisance I simply have to put up with for the time being, maybe for life. I’ve never actually wanted friends, but I was constantly made to feel guilty as a kid for not having them, which, as you can expect, led me to try desperately to make them without knowing how, and hence to make an annoyance of myself and to invite even more abuse than I otherwise would have.

Only shamefully late in life did I learn how important male friendship is to prove your manliness, and therefore how unlikely you are to attract a healthy and interesting woman if you’re unable to make male friends, which involves earning their respect. With this in mind, I do wish to improve myself and make as much progress as I can in what’s left of my life, even though there’s no way in hell I can catch up with those who didn’t waste as many precious years as I did some way or other, and hence it’d be completely out of touch with reality to believe I have a chance to ever get laid or have a girlfriend, let alone in time to have children with her, which is my real priority. However, I still have no desire to make friends, even if I actually could ever be good enough for that. If I were to make them, it’d be only as a deeply resented duty, because I had no other choice to pursue the goals I’m actually interested in, and it wouldn’t work anyway, because the friendship would be false. This is probably yet another reason to disqualify me as a dating material. In fact, since I’d fail to earn the status of a male worthy of being sexually active, I’d only expect any potential non-friends to tacitly—or even not so tacitly—remind me that I’d better stay away from women or else.

Luckily for me, there’s more to life than getting close to other people.



So if you’re alone, you’re noöne. I like that saying.



I wonder how you can do all that. I’d expect to be arrested in short order if I tried it, or at least to get a fist or two in my face.



Maybe if they can afford it.

While I understand the need to be cautious in dealing with certain people, especially in wake of Isla Vista and Toronto, Marknis made a good point in that sometimes we get shot down because of mere assumptions made about us, and being accused of things that aren't even true. I've had a extremely painful experience with that myself.

In the past, other women have not just appeared to have been wary of me, but have been wary of me, and on many of these occasions, I was doing nothing but standing there minding my own business. I can't imagine what they thought I might do, and I doubt they actually had anything specific in mind. While males, on average, are more likely to perceive something as a threat than females, on average, I think (NT) females, on average, tend to pick up on social microabnormalities more often for various evolutionary reasons favorable to survival and protection of their offspring. So some women think I'm creepy. When they discover I'm not really, then they seem to feel completely silly. The positive thing about this is it gives me more personal space.

"Really, I want to know," the woman continued. "How many women?"

People on love-shy.com frequently commiserate over moments like these: moments where the assumption is that everyone is having sex, no big deal.

"Really," Michael said. "None."

ON MAY 23, 2014, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger went on a killing spree in Isla Vista, California, murdering six people and injuring 14 others. Rodger described his rampage as vengeance against attractive women for denying him sex and affection. Previous mass shooters—from Marc Lépine in Montreal in 1989 to Pittsburgh's George Sodini in 2009—had expressed similar sentiments. Just last fall, Chris Harper-Mercer, the 26-year-old who killed nine people at Umpqua Community College in Oregon, was posting online about being "involuntarily" celibate.

What set Rodger apart from other "virgin killers" (as headlines have dubbed them) was that he left an extensive digital footprint in an Internet world dedicated to men complaining about their solo state. He'd even argued for a revolution of male incels: "If we can't solve our problems, we must DESTROY our problems. One day incels will realize their true strength and numbers, and will overthrow this oppressive feminist system. Start envisioning a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU."

Michael has nothing but scorn for Rodger, not just because of his senseless, horrific crimes, but also because his behavior demonizes chronically celibate men. Guys who can't get women aren't just losers and weirdos anymore. Now they're losers, weirdos, and potential monsters. This contributes to a climate where, as Michael sees it, it's better to "just keep quiet, because otherwise you can be misinterpreted in all sorts of negative ways."

For Michael, our conversations were minefields, with the potential for misspeaking—or being quoted out of context—lurking in the shadow of every question. He frequently went off the record or sidestepped answering me directly. He emphasized that he'd never liked the "incel" idea in the first place ("It's just a dumb term") and that he no longer even thinks of himself as love-shy. Labels mean association. Association is dangerous. Even his own website is no good anymore. Too much hate, too many "crazy ideas."

Your case is strange, I recall (not entirely sure if I recall it right) you said once people yelled or act scared (or of that sort of reaction) in your mere presence?

I find this very strange and extreme, what's your dressing type? Something doesn't add up in your stories.