When YouTube Red-Pills the Love of Your Life

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MaxE
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23 Feb 2019, 8:58 am

funeralxempire wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Not to mention terms that are thrown around like "toxic masculinity" used to describe so-called toxic things that men do that are seen as masculine or whatever, but you'd never look at another group's toxic behaviour like for instance in the black community where there are disproportionately high crime rates and call it "toxic blackness", or focus on ISIS and call it "toxic Islam". You'd quite rightly be called a racist if you were to do that, but no it's fine to use the term for problems (real and perceived) with how men conduct themselves.


You should watch the show Boondocks, a lot of the episodes call out 'toxic blackness', even if that term isn't used.



Perhaps 'toxic masculinity' is a phrase that men should be quicker to use and women slower, since it's a problem that only men can fix.
Equating being black with leftist political leanings is indicative of a naïve understanding of American culture and politics. I think this all got started with @Marknis equating redneck and hip-hop culture, which I believe is a valid comparison.


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The Grand Inquisitor
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23 Feb 2019, 9:25 am

MaxE wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Yeah you can't call yourself a leftist/liberal/progressive and embrace misogyny and sexism, liberalism is based on the idea of equality and egalitarianism. Sexism is antithetical to the progressive left, and the Red-pill "movement" holds misogyny as its central tenet.
I think it's foolish to equate leftist politics with feminism. I'll bet Che Guevara treated women like playthings. In fact, I can recall that the rise of radical feminism in the late 60s to early 70s derailed the New Left somewhat as a lot of women woke up to how charismatic leftist leaders were using them as a means of entertainment after a hard day of organizing protests, and went public about it.

Maybe equating all leftist politics with feminism including from the past or from different countries would be naive, but it's fair to say that modern western leftist politics is fairly interwoven with feminism.



MaxE
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23 Feb 2019, 9:37 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
MaxE wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Yeah you can't call yourself a leftist/liberal/progressive and embrace misogyny and sexism, liberalism is based on the idea of equality and egalitarianism. Sexism is antithetical to the progressive left, and the Red-pill "movement" holds misogyny as its central tenet.
I think it's foolish to equate leftist politics with feminism. I'll bet Che Guevara treated women like playthings. In fact, I can recall that the rise of radical feminism in the late 60s to early 70s derailed the New Left somewhat as a lot of women woke up to how charismatic leftist leaders were using them as a means of entertainment after a hard day of organizing protests, and went public about it.

Maybe equating all leftist politics with feminism including from the past or from different countries would be naive, but it's fair to say that modern western leftist politics is fairly interwoven with feminism.
Interwoven but not congruent. In fact, I believe it's quite possible to be a feminist while holding what would otherwise be considered right-wing points of view on most issues.


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The Grand Inquisitor
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23 Feb 2019, 10:17 am

MaxE wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
MaxE wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Yeah you can't call yourself a leftist/liberal/progressive and embrace misogyny and sexism, liberalism is based on the idea of equality and egalitarianism. Sexism is antithetical to the progressive left, and the Red-pill "movement" holds misogyny as its central tenet.
I think it's foolish to equate leftist politics with feminism. I'll bet Che Guevara treated women like playthings. In fact, I can recall that the rise of radical feminism in the late 60s to early 70s derailed the New Left somewhat as a lot of women woke up to how charismatic leftist leaders were using them as a means of entertainment after a hard day of organizing protests, and went public about it.

Maybe equating all leftist politics with feminism including from the past or from different countries would be naive, but it's fair to say that modern western leftist politics is fairly interwoven with feminism.
Interwoven but not congruent. In fact, I believe it's quite possible to be a feminist while holding what would otherwise be considered right-wing points of view on most issues.

You're probably right, but in the same vein that a socially conservative socialist is uncommon, or a far-left red-piller, so too is a right-wing feminist, especially if we're referring to intersectional feminism.



funeralxempire
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23 Feb 2019, 10:40 am

MaxE wrote:
Equating being black with leftist political leanings is indicative of a naïve understanding of American culture and politics. I think this all got started with @Marknis equating redneck and hip-hop culture, which I believe is a valid comparison.


Who equated the two? :?

Since that hasn't actually occurred, your statement seems out of place.


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MaxE
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23 Feb 2019, 11:08 am

funeralxempire wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Equating being black with leftist political leanings is indicative of a naïve understanding of American culture and politics. I think this all got started with @Marknis equating redneck and hip-hop culture, which I believe is a valid comparison.


Who equated the two? :?

Since that hasn't actually occurred, your statement seems out of place.
I thought this was implied by some of the posts. I apologize if I saw something that wasn't there. It can happen.


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MaxE
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23 Feb 2019, 11:19 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
MaxE wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
MaxE wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Yeah you can't call yourself a leftist/liberal/progressive and embrace misogyny and sexism, liberalism is based on the idea of equality and egalitarianism. Sexism is antithetical to the progressive left, and the Red-pill "movement" holds misogyny as its central tenet.
I think it's foolish to equate leftist politics with feminism. I'll bet Che Guevara treated women like playthings. In fact, I can recall that the rise of radical feminism in the late 60s to early 70s derailed the New Left somewhat as a lot of women woke up to how charismatic leftist leaders were using them as a means of entertainment after a hard day of organizing protests, and went public about it.

Maybe equating all leftist politics with feminism including from the past or from different countries would be naive, but it's fair to say that modern western leftist politics is fairly interwoven with feminism.
Interwoven but not congruent. In fact, I believe it's quite possible to be a feminist while holding what would otherwise be considered right-wing points of view on most issues.

You're probably right, but in the same vein that a socially conservative socialist is uncommon, or a far-left red-piller, so too is a right-wing feminist, especially if we're referring to intersectional feminism.
I'll concede your point regarding red-pillers, however I have seen plenty of cultures that are socially conservative but embrace socialism. It may be less common now, but in early post-war Europe, a great many countries embraced socialism but remained socially conservative (those countries are typically much less socially conservative today so it might be hard to believe). I distinctly recall this having been pointed out to me with regard to Austria where I spent a few months many decades ago — that Austrians were conservative by nature despite most of them being socialists. Ironically, a lot of the aforementioned countries are at least somewhat less socialist than in the past. A lot of people in East Asia who would describe themselves as socialists also adhere to Confucianism, which to me is an extremely conservative philosophy given its emphasis on authority, especially parental authority which can lead to sexual repression.

Some of this is cultural. In the US, I would argue that most white people of either gender consider themselves conservative (I will stand by this "statistic") and I'll wager that, in addition, a great many of the women in that category also think of themselves as feminists. This may be more "normal" in the US than elsewhere.


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23 Feb 2019, 3:56 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
Anybody who believes socialism is incompatible with the right of the political spectrum has obviously never heard of Mr. Christopher Lasch. I myself am a proud conservative on social issues and socialist on economic issues.

To be fair, left-leaning fiscally and right-leaning socially is a pretty rare combination. Most people are either left for both, right for both, centre for both, left or right for one and centre for the other or left-leaning socially and right-leaning fiscally. A conservative socialist is not a political leaning you encounter often.

To Kara's point about red-pill being right-wing, it's difficult, because as far as I'm aware there's no checklist of what red-pillers believe, and the term itself is quite subjectively used. A lot of red pill ideas seem to go against the far left and feminism though so I think it would be fair to say that it is less likely that left-wingers would identify with red pill philosophy, but just because an idea or group is against modern feminism and the far left doesn't necessarily put it on the right wing by default.

I think the best way to put it would be to say that red pill philosophy is to the right of feminism. I don't like the term "red pill" myself, both because it sounds obnoxious and can basically refer to anything from being realistic to being misogynistic depending on who's using the term and in what context.


My own question is, why choose a combination of social conservative/fiscal leftist in the first place?



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23 Feb 2019, 4:19 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Yeah you can't call yourself a leftist/liberal/progressive and embrace misogyny and sexism, liberalism is based on the idea of equality and egalitarianism. Sexism is antithetical to the progressive left

You are kinda right, the far left isn't big on misogyny, but they are more likely than the right to practice misandry, or sexism against men, though I would bet you don't see it that way


Actually the right, especially the Christian right, is far more sexist towards men than the left. The left thinks gender roles are outdated and harm both men and women--the Christian right on the other hand embraces strict gender roles. Though I would bet you don't see it that way.

[Color=firebrick]Well they're not as tolerant of men who don't fit somewhere into traditional gender roles, but the far left aren't very tolerant of those who do, especially if they're also heterosexual and Caucasian. Men in general are frequently deemed oppressors despite most of us just going about our day. When looking at the worst abusers out there like rapists and murderers (in which category, yeah, the majority are male, for mostly biological reasons), we're either lumped in with them or told it's our responsibility to fix things even though most of us would never dream of perpetrating such crimes and have no responsibility for those that are perpetrated.

Whenever there is a gender imbalance somewhere in favour of men, it must be corrected immediately to ensure that women are equally represented, but then when women overtake men so that the imbalance is skewed in the opposite direction (like in higher education), that's fine.

Not to mention terms that are thrown around like "toxic masculinity" used to describe so-called toxic things that men do that are seen as masculine or whatever, but you'd never look at another group's toxic behaviour like for instance in the black community where there are disproportionately high crime rates and call it "toxic blackness", or focus on ISIS and call it "toxic Islam". You'd quite rightly be called a racist if you were to do that, but no it's fine to use the term for problems (real and perceived) with how men conduct themselves.


So let me get this right--I'm responsible for all the things the left is doing wrong because I'm on the left, but you as a man aren't responsible for the bad things men are doing. That sounds a tad hypocritical to me.[/quote]
I don't think your necessarily responsible for all the things the left is doing. But those on the left who are doing that
"stuff" really annoy me.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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23 Feb 2019, 4:24 pm

MaxE wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Yeah you can't call yourself a leftist/liberal/progressive and embrace misogyny and sexism, liberalism is based on the idea of equality and egalitarianism. Sexism is antithetical to the progressive left, and the Red-pill "movement" holds misogyny as its central tenet.
I think it's foolish to equate leftist politics with feminism. I'll bet Che Guevara treated women like playthings. In fact, I can recall that the rise of radical feminism in the late 60s to early 70s derailed the New Left somewhat as a lot of women woke up to how charismatic leftist leaders were using them as a means of entertainment after a hard day of organizing protests, and went public about it.


Wikipedia: Liberalism

Quote:
"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equality.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support civil rights, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and free markets."


*Emphasis added by me.



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23 Feb 2019, 4:35 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
MaxE wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Yeah you can't call yourself a leftist/liberal/progressive and embrace misogyny and sexism, liberalism is based on the idea of equality and egalitarianism. Sexism is antithetical to the progressive left, and the Red-pill "movement" holds misogyny as its central tenet.
I think it's foolish to equate leftist politics with feminism. I'll bet Che Guevara treated women like playthings. In fact, I can recall that the rise of radical feminism in the late 60s to early 70s derailed the New Left somewhat as a lot of women woke up to how charismatic leftist leaders were using them as a means of entertainment after a hard day of organizing protests, and went public about it.

Maybe equating all leftist politics with feminism including from the past or from different countries would be naive, but it's fair to say that modern western leftist politics is fairly interwoven with feminism.


The point is not everyone on the left is a feminist (at least the 1960s and 21st century variety), but pretty much all the big voices and followers of the feminists lean on the left.