Don't trust ANYTHING women say.

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Who asked men to change how they act? It certainly wasn't me. No-one should change their ways, otherwise you're building a relationship on dishonest grounds.



If he had communicated with her, rather than tried to read her mind, he wouldn't have a problem.
Like I said, if you can't communicate, then get out of the relationship. It may be partly the woman's fault if she's not direct enough for you to understand, but the end result is still the same. You can't expect your partner to make allowances for you.

I don't settle for creeps, that's what's wrong with me.


You won't date someone that tries to take advantage of you? That's a leap, isn't it. If you were gay, you'd have the same problem with men, you do realize.



And do they owe you? No, they don't.



Why are you so angry? Clearly you've got it all figured out, and have self-respect, so no-one will take advantage of you.

I never said anything about aspie females, I've never even met one in person. Nobody is asking for special treatment; asking that women don't get into bed with you if it's not a sexual invitation is basic common sense, not special treatment. Almost all NT men would have interpreted that as a sexual invitation, and almost any NT woman would have done that only if meant as a sexual invitation (so in the vast majority of cases it's not an issue), there is nothing AS-related about that.
Maybe the OP didn't ask her straight up because he has learned through experience that women are rarely upfront about what they want? Maybe men try to read unspoken signals rather than asking because we've been lied to so many times when we ask a straight question ("What's wrong?" "Nothing.")? Would you bother with straight questions if you couldn't trust the answers? How do you know that she would have given him an honest answer?
No, I don't expect women to initiate everything, but being a little more upfront about things would make life easier for everyone, including NT men (though if your social skills are poor being in the position of having to initiate everything, always, if you want to get anywhere is hell). I certainly don't demand that a woman spend ages in her appearance for me to take an interest.
My last crush was a girl whom I've never seen with makeup, or in a skirt, or high heels (and I'm not the only guy that has taken an interest in her in that way - yes, some men do care about personality). In most couples with children it's the woman that was keener on having kids. But it sounds like some women expect men not just to initiate everything, but also read their minds (even when they lie in response to a straight question), jump for joy if she doesn't want sex, etc... a list of demands that is neither reasonable nor realistic. Some women completely fail to see the irony of wanting a man who has self-respect, confidence and is aggressive... and reads her mind, totally worships the ground beneath her feet, etc.

Zee,
While I see the sense in most of what you've said, I think it leaves out some critical elements.

Foremost of these is the "Observer Effect". Asking a question is itself an action. Among other things, it expresses uncertainty. Asking "too many stupid questions" has a particularly chilling effect.

Further, as best I can tell, being male carries a deep prohibition against displaying weakness. Displays of weakness carry both internal and external costs. That may be stupid and self-destructive, but that doesn't change it. Emotions and the subconscious are not terribly intellectual.

A lot of women in my culture(USA contemporary)go around asserting their victim status and expecting men to feel sorry for them and do ALL THE WORK when it comes to courtship and relationships. If I am going to control my behaviour around women for THEIR benefit that I expect them to reciprocate. BTW, if you think that women never initiate things you are WRONG. Some women actually Do-even though its not as common. I mean really and truly, if you like a guy than why should he have to read your mind to figure it out? If you like him enough and he doesnt pick up on it than
theres no reason why YOU cant bit the bullet and let him know. Personally I REALLY LIKE women who are somewhat aggressive sexually and will take the lead if guy doesnt do it first. Like my first gf-once she was lying on top of me SHE was the one who put her lips to mine and started french-kissing me. Another girl I met, well, I cuddled her first(she didnt back away)and then put my lips to hers and she began sucking on my lips and shoving her toungue into my mouth and then climbing on top of me .
You say you like men to take the lead but I bet You Too would be creeped out if some guy started getting really aggressive with you and pushing the boundaries. So just how exactly do you define creep eH?

Dishman-what you said is very estute and totally reasonable.Maybe zee's official diagnosis is a farce. She's talking like a stuck-up conservative little NT b***h.Women, especially NT women, lie so f*****g much its not even funny. And THEN they wonder why men dont trust them?Im sosick of women putting All the blame on the guy no matter what. Its like them ho's who get drunk, spread their legs, wake up in the wrong bed and accuse the guy they came onto of rape.

Gently, D1nk0...

While I will admit that at times Zee's words in this thread have infuriated me, I relaxed and analyzed why, and it no longer bothers me. Her approach to language and presenting thoughts reminds me very much of a particular ex-girlfriend. Unfortunately for that relationship, neither of us knew anything about Aspergers, and both of us are Aspies. (Oops)

That's just how her mind presents logic. My saying "leaves out some critical elements" was not an accident.

As for conservatives, many people consider me to be conservative. Don't try to read too much into that, though.

All that said, I understand your anger. It's worth noting and acknowledging. This is not a subject where it can usefully be "focused for application".

Dishman, you seem like a reasonable person, but I'm not sure exactly how these statements apply to our debate.

D1nk0, you're just repeating yourself, and I have no intention of following suit. If you know what kind of partner you want, Ie a direct woman, then go out and find her, but criticizing other women and making vague generalizations about them isn't helping. Also, it'll make you look like an insecure jerk even if you do meet a woman you're compatible with.
In short, stop blaming women for your own shortcomings.

Well @least I dont have to say it Again.

Sorry, thats BS. But then again, everyone is entitled to My opinion

If by "reasonable" you mean "agreeable to reason", well, I often try to be, and sometimes even succeed. If you mean "not exceeding the limit prescribed by reason", then no. That's a possible miscommunication there.

As best I can tell, you are advocating heavy usage of verbal communications, and less reliance on non-verbal. While that may be intellectually appealing (even to me), my experience is that it doesn't work terribly well.

We would like to think of ourselves as sapient, but that's not the whole story. We are also sentient. The sentient aspects have all sorts of back doors into our sapient minds, and can in fact distort or even override our logic. Memories can be altered, facts changed or ignored and logic rejected in the name of emotion.

You are right about that. Zee acts like women make it verbally clear they are sexually or intimately interested in you.

That is just fantasy talk. I have never had, nor have anyone I know, had a woman verbally tell them that. Instead, they do it all be sending "out signals." Why do you think there are entire shelves at bookstores for confused men to try and read the signs if a woman is iterested in a man. Stuff like "If she crosses her ankle and squares up to you, that means she's interested in you"

Once, since I was in a very bold mood, asked a woman straight up if she was sexually interested in me. Her face went about three shades red and after collecting herself said, "You're not suppose to ask that. That's not how it works. You'll know if I am." I remember another time I was on the bed with a woman and asked her if she liked me, and she said, "Hello, would I have invited you into my room and on my bed if I didn't."

Normal guys have a hard time reading women's "signs" let alone being an Aspie male, yet get women like Zee that try and make all but impossible to be sure if a woman likes you or not, because now can't even be sure on the signs she gives you as meaning she likes you.

Honestly, I'm female and I have no idea why people play these games. I was the one who asked Kevin-John out, I figure if you like someone, why not tell them?

See my post at the bottom of page 6 describing the difference between Sapience and Sentience. We are not wholly rational.

The bottom line is that it's wired in to NT brains. I think it's at least partial wired in to most Aspie brains as well.

Based on what I've read about "the laws of nature", and in retrospect, observed, in western culture, a women tends to convey she is interested in a man via body language, and may attempt to communicate this many times. If the man picks up on this he may respond by initiating behavior of a similar bent, which eventually leads to verbal communication, usually initiated by the man, and that can of worms. In the case of men who don't "have the guts" to make the first move, this may be because they are interested and "don't have the guts", or because they didn't pick up on the signals in the first place. In the case of someone on the spectrum, they likely fall into the second group, so telling them to "be a man" is tantamount to telling a deaf person to "get a clue" because they didn't answer a telephone call at your place.

a! It's not just NTs who are untruthful when it suits them. Some NTs are also the very soul of truthfulness. I don't know why there have to be so many stupid games between men and women either.

It's always so refreshing to hear of someone like this. As I said, the world would be a better place if people were more upfront - not necessarily women asking men out, but giving truthful answers to straight questions would be a good start.