The Problem with Western Men is....

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A lot of American women seemed to get wet over Crocodile Dundee back when that movie came out.

Probably because that's what real men used to be like.... a kind rarely seen today in the West.

So, the problem with Western Men is that we're not as good as our grandfathers (at least as portrayed by Paul Hogan and John Wayne). We're too, what, bland? Feminine? Immasculated?

I think that a modern Western woman would slap down any man who tried to act like John Wayne or Crocodile Dundee. And, she would slap down just about any other man, as well.

You mean the concept of the modern liberal feminist western woman? Unfortunately, most men think this is what a woman is and twists and bend their persona to match. Most 'men' would not want to be with a modern western woman.

Of course this does not apply to ALL men. Just the current vast majority.

I think this is where human free will as a concept seems to lose its elasticity. The founding fathers were seen as the great generation of their time, their kids couldn't find the causes to stand behind just because they weren't there, the generational decay went on for another generation until an epiphany was had that things were slipping to far, then another generation tried to guide things back on the tracks etc. etc.. Its cyclical, partly event driven (like you mentioned the Great Depression, etc.) but, those same people born of generation X or Y would be us. I know that your speaking to people who would pin cynicism on western women - I tend to just think this is part of what things are.

As for moving back home at 30...lol, I'm there and I'm not sure that I'd blame men of women for wanting to save for a bit, particularly if they're in a situation where they travel too much for work or haven't found a justifiable excuse - single particularly - to pay an apartment rents rather than their parents, IMO the sign of that one as a weakness is more circumstantial. There was once a time that you didn't leave home until you were married, in some aspects today that may just be trading image back for common sense (afterall part of being an adult is realizing that there's no one to catch you when you fall - wise to seal your self-sufficiency with your savings account). My friends are pretty much all living down the west coast of Florida and inviting me to move to Boca Raton this summer - hopefully that should be all the initiative I need .



IMO both genders have their fantasies and ideals about the other, I think people are ready to get married once they understand life a bit better and can trim the excess and arbitraries off of what they want or need.

Welcome to the consequences of 3 decades of feminism.



I think most men are quite find with modern Western woman, but it seems like modern Western woman is neither satisfied with traditional masculine sexist man nor with the effeminised men of today. It seems like modern women are never satisfied.

I get the feeling that what it really is - ideology and reality eclipse and cancel one another out. The type of old fashioned man that many or most would want - they're taught by society to think that's bad, therefore they will while generating internal conflict. Society tells them to like the waxed hairless pretty boy (like the new Bond) and - its what they're told to like but at gut and natural level, they don't want it. I think the real problem here is that many movements of the 60's came with the idea that they had to over-steer or overcorrect reality in order to make an indelible impression on history; the results of that of course being quite costly.

That's not of course to say that there aren't women who know what they want and say f' society's outlook, just like there are many women who do actually want a softer guy - just that there is a lot of confusion inbetween.

I don't think so. I know so.

There's some interesting literature on the damage done by the 68-ers and their attempts to indoctrinate entire generations. My favorite is "The Diversity Myth", which deals on the replacement of objectivity and high academic standards by a subjective "multiculturalist" at Stanford university. The driving force behind this change were 68-ers....



I doubt there are many women who're attracted to effeminised wussies, regardless of how much better they look with their metrosexual appearance.

You might actually find Dennis Prager interesting if you haven't heard of him before. He actually, on his radio show, apologizes quite often to the younger generations for the damage that his did in passing off a worse America than what his had inherited. One of his most formative experiences was being a student at Columbia University during that time and seeing students actually baracade the teachers out in anti-war protests while the teachers were too chestless to put them in their place.



Actually with this one I know otherwise. Both genders have their tendency to idealize, with women they seem to go for extremes and it seems like the guys who are likely single the longest are the guys who are actually inbetween. Guys who seem to have the sort of 'thug' genetics, especially if they are responsible enough to seem like they've made the best of reconciling it - barely ever see them single. I'll also see plenty of guys who are wusses but of a very moody and judgemental nature who - always seem to be with someone. As for really nimbish and harmless geeks - most of them that I know are married. They're extrema though and that's why it works out for them.

My own experience was something like this - I had a very innocent Toby McGwirish, even more disneyish, presentation due to what my AS overload did to me - they ate it up until they realized that it was just appearance, then they weren't interested. Then again, the ironic thing about that, I have a hard time imagining that Toby McGwire was anything like his movie characters, most guys I know who even look like that are metalheads, or into hard techno or rap, like a lot of women who look too innocent for their own good they have a part of themselves that craves full actuality that doesn't match their image. That, however, seems to come with almost permanent singlehood, mainly that a guy isn't 'wearing the whole hat' in his looks matching his personality.

I won't say by any means that this doesn't happen to women at the hands of guys, if anything it seems like the more popularly attractive a female aspie is - having alternative wiring - it makes her look less like who she is and more likely to be banned on first glance by guys who she should be right for and attract all the guys who will flee once they get to know her. This is just how powerful external image is in attractiveness and yes, if you attract the wrong thing and repel the right thing you end up in a bit of a relationship desert. This happens mostly, I think, because the chemistry aspect is so primal and instinct driven - by the time rationlization and intellectualizing is allowed in to adjust reality to appearences, its destroyed. That's the fate that most of these women suffer as well as a great many guys, even NT's, who are in my situation.

Just like you'll see even GQish popular guys who seem to have it all but who may be in their early to mid 30's but who look and vibe up like they're early to mid 20 somethings as yes, salient social butterflies but with little or nothing to show for it. Why? I think its because again, they're eclipsed - women their age think they're younger or get the impression that they're somehow underdeveloped (go figure) while younger girls generally don't have the maturity to relate; thus, they're stuck in the highlife and post-adolescent wasteland. That last group also demostrates that great clothing, social skills, even adeptitude at being a bit on the 'bad boy' side still barely smooths things over much more than with one night stands (which IMO, and I'd suspect for most guys past adolescence, view as something well short of what they really want).

Its sad to think that humanity is this dumb and this incorrigibly bound to first impression but, it seems to show up in people I meet as well as in my own life constantly. The world does and will treat you one way or another based on what you look like, your mannerisms, and even what you think is in your control isn't enough to reverse something that people have you thrown to the outside for.

Attempting to use women and their availability to men to describe the problems of western men is problematic. The interaction of women and men is non-simplistic, and attempting to examine mens issues based upon women is near impossible.

Womens interaction with men is one of many symptons. Relationship success, and failure, is not the fault of a single party but is often described as a failure to communicate, trust and maturity. All of which is typically not the fault of one person or the other.

Yes, we can find all kinds of women who go for all kinds of men - it's a big world w/ >6,000,000,000 people where any scenario can be thought and supported via specific cases.

We cannot assume women are the cause of the change in western men's behavior (e.g. their mothers) and change. Again, the lack of proper role models, the education system, gender confusion all play a part - but there's no one single cause.

However, since this is a "love and dating" forum... Women do play a large part in how men act and react to their behavior. The feminist movement and liberalization IMO has caused nothing but problems for men...

Women dress sexy, but if I comment am I a sexist? Do I hold open the door or treat her as an equal? Do I volunteer to pick up the check or recognize her ability to pay? Do I buy the flowers and ring or is there now an assumption she is capable of proposing and where's my ring?

So men attempting to figure out the above rules w/o resorting to the previous (e.g. 1950's rules) generations set of rules are flying blind.

^ One of the better posts, recently, in my opinion. That there is ample room for confusion is certainly evident, and it exists for both genders; those same questions asked by men are asked by women as well. So often, the Western woman is derided for having "changed her role" in society... which is sad, because there are many things gained from that shift. Are men and women equal? In a literal sense, no - there are a lot of things women can do that I can't, and more that a woman is more likely to excel at than I will. And this works in both directions. But when you ask those questions, it is important to remember that uncertainty exists for both sides of the fence. I've met all kinds of women... my ex-fiancee proposed to me; had one relationship that dissipated when I failed to act in accordance with her expectations of what the male partner should do to in the progression of said relationship. My wife is a wonderful combination of the two, which works for me - sometimes I lead, sometimes I follow, and between the two of us we manage to stay in step. Best advice I can give is to recognize such "rules" for what they are - traditions, not laws - and take what chances seem to provide you the best opportunities.


M.

Interesting. Thanks for the suggestion !



Interesting hypothesis. This does make sense and would explain why guys like Brian Molko (from the band Placebo) or Leonardo Di Caprio are so popular among especially girls and young women.



Yet if you don't manage to build up an 'image' for yourself, you won't even get any femine attention at all. It seems like the only option is to actually become the kind of guy we're expected to be, but I doubt that's even a remote possibility....



Again, a very interesting hypothesis.



I share that perspective.



I don't see anyone suggesting that women are the cause of men's problems today.



True. However, in general there seems to be an inclination of attraction towards certain types of men rather than towards other types of men.



Obviously. I see no one here implying otherwise.



Again, no disagreement here....

to op

if women wanted to be treated as equals then thats what will happen. dont demand equality then b***h about not getting special treatment

That pretty much sums up the point I was making...

Life isn't fair -- sorry. Women are always going to be fickle with this issue, and there's really no point in appealing to fairness in how these rules are applied. Many women want equality up to a point, and then want to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to other things, or when chivalry would work in their favor.

Want to get laid? Want a girlfriend? Want to get married? Learn to live with it. There are lots of other unfair things women deal with (like childbirth and the monthly "visitor"), so when someone pays lip service to gender equality, take it with a grain of salt, live with it, and move on. There are lots of things in this society, especially regarding equality and fairness, that are more theory than practical reality.

Fairness really goes as far as how we treat eachother in the eyes of the law and how we at least try and aim to treat one another on the personal platonic level. Anything more intimate than that though - forget it, we're all too badly broken just by the very frame we're built on.