Question for the Aspie males that want girlfriends.

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I don't dispute any of the points in that article. It's important for women to feel safe if they're to communicate at all. I understand that anyone has the right to say no at any given time and one should respect that. I do respect such boundaries, so long as I know that they exist. So many women use subtle BS that goes right over my head though. Not saying that's wrong, just that I can't read it. And because of that, I have to be on the safe side and assume that unless she gives an overt message that she wants to talk to me (such as talking to me first), she's saying "no". That's why I generally pursue relationships with women that I've been friends with for a while. I generally get better at "reading" someone's individual body language when I know them, and a woman is more likely to see me as "safe" if she's been around me for a while.

Toad, have you considered EHarmony? You could get matched directly on personality traits and find a woman that is looking for something serious without the hassle of dating.

therange I haven't answered your thread as yet, but have been monitoring it. Mainly because I don't fall into the group you are talking about, although it would be nice to have a girlfriend (I’m not hot on the idea right this minute due to current circumstances, so it would have to be exceptional reason for the time being). I know who you are talking about though, and I was in the group a long time ago. Thing is, I'm hyper-analytical,and have a low tolerance for surface logic, so it wouldn't do. The average resentful person isn't as logical as they may think. Biology and "fairness" is a whole other subject, but it is fair to say the simplistic view, whilst obvious, isn't the best one.

So yes I have explained many times. You have to bear in mind that when people are reacting in angst they probably won’t get it. Some may never get it, due to their very nature and personality. When you run out of people to blame, it is hard to fathom that “blame” doesn’t come into it.

Probably the most important thing to note is that conscious thought don't necessarily reflect underlying behaviour. What we think about how behave isn't how we behave. Perception can be very weak ‘evidence’ without the critical thinking to go with it.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 17 Feb 2010, 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

And some guys who may think they are "nice" and not actually very nice at all. Just because you don't have a criminal record and wouldn't physically abuse a woman doesn't make you a nice guy.

Both the "nice guy" and "alpha male" theory are fallacies. I have written extensively on the alpha fallacy on this board. People assume that if you take that position you believe in some sort fairytale, when in fact there are sound reasons why alpha structure is totally infeasible in modern humans. A good example of alpha structure is wolves. There are very specific requirements needed for it to work. It doesn't work for simple organisms like bacteria and it doesn’t work in some complex life forms that are living in huge numbers with multiple overlapping groups, where it is near impossible for one to control all the breading. Humans have a lot of sex, even if some people aren’t getting any. In fact the whole idea of alpha behaviour isn’t all that profound; it is used to explain obvious examples like wolves, but is a very simplistic way of explaining pecking order. Doing without doesn’t mean there is no dominance or power play on the contrary, but you have to acknowledge that dominance isn’t totally static, it is a dynamic thing, especially in humans.

Humans even manage egalitarian relationships with dynamic power play.

Not a bad point, but I'd posit that you'd feel far more empowered if you took that bull by the horns. The cues are subtle, but we CAN learn them, and even make them easier to catch when they happen. I believe I'm a successful example of that, as I was quite backwards and oblivious 6 years ago. I got interested(.... very interested...) in this general subject, how people interact, the patterns behind how we behaved, the cause/effect chains that I'd never realized before. And so I read a lot of stuff about social stuff in general (books, articles, forums, etc) including reading up on the various ways those cues come out. It took a long while to really put it all together, but I did. More or less. I'm still kinda oblivious compared to my friends, I'm embarrassed to say, but I'm way more in-tune than before. I only make an ass out of myself to strangers 1/4 times now!
And life is better as a result. I don't feel like a slug. And believe me, I used to.

Consider reading up on this broader topic. It's so empowering for us, having been left behind socially for most of our lives. You might even like the reading by itself(I sure did).

Why? WHY?

So what if you chat up a woman and she isn't interested? It happens to other people all the time. Tell her to have a nice day, and move on!

So what if you are making it obvious that you are interested in her? It's supposed to be obvious! Subtle but obvious. How else would she know if a guy were interested or not? You are the one making the first move.

You really should get some books about this...

0 equals true, I've read your writings on the 'alpha male fallacy,' and it's very good. I really respect and like your style of thinking. And I agree with your conclusion on the Alpha 'issue,' in part. The behavior that humans show does not mimic wolves, for instance, in many ways.

However, recognize that this 'pick-up' term is never going to spill into the scientific world, and it will never threaten the real definition of the idea. Those who deal with the real subject regularly all know and agree with what you're saying, so it's not worth worrying about.

Although humans' behavior does not resemble wolves, there is a very loose, patterned hierarchy that dependably ends up surfacing when you have a small group of men(which is nearly always whats getting talked about, and rarely large groups[except in the loosest of metaphor]). It has nothing to do with wolves, but no one seemed interested in making up or finding the right word for it, so the wolf metaphor is used. It's not such a bad thing. As long as you realize that we're not directly equating ourselves to those animals' behavior, and are selectively taking similarities and tossing out dissimilarities that visibly don't match, it's really not a big deal. It may seem like we're doing a direct match comparison, but we're not(give us some credit). Occasionally someone makes a logical leap based on the metaphor, which turns out to be bad, but time weeds those conclusions out. And those who recognize it as a bad leap will ignore it. No big deal.

All that said, your writings were extremely awesome for reminding us to distance ourselves from what is ultimately a cosmetic metaphor used mostly for the sake of fun.

But that's not really what I wanted to ask you..... What I really wanted to mention is that, besides the alpha male fallacy, you have not addressed the 'nice guy' pattern. You seem to allude that this pattern as equally fallacious to the other metaphor. Tell us how? I believe that to toss it out so easily as the other one would be to throw the baby out with the bath water; If there are inaccuracies, corrections are warranted, rather than labeling it broadly as a complete fallacy.
Are you taking the term's intended context into account? It's pretty particular.

Further I'm curious what you think about other topics brought up in this discussion. Much of it has been dominated by emotion. Your perspective, then, could be much more fresh.

Finally, you also seem to be saying that people are at a severe handicap when attempting to think logically about an emotionally charged topic. Granted. But I think you're underestimating peoples ability to set their emotions aside. I do not believe that attempting to appeal to logic on emotional topics is so fruitless as you seem to be implying...?

I do read up on this from time to time. Not as in-depth as you, but I do. And while I understand a lot of this on a theoretical level, I'm just too slow socially to apply any of this knowledge to real-life situations. Either way, I still end up being a failure.

With endings like that, I just cant tell wether it's simply your habit, or if you're trying to bait us. Or worse, if you're just trying to spite our attempt to pull you out of your funk.
It's very demoralizing. Keep it up, and you'll win this lil struggle against your would-be-liberators.

It has nothing to do with your attempts to help me, and everything to do with the fact that i keep striking out (either looking or swinging, it doesn't matter), ergo, I am a failure...

Yeah i've noticed none of the guys who moan on here make any sort of effort offline.

Its like they want us to give them some magical response to instantly make women like them, of have us tell them they are acting fine and its the woman with the problem.

I've suggested to Tim Tex that if he can't find and aspie and it matters that much for him to move states.

I've suggested to Toad to get a job at a restaurant for a couple of hours in the weekend where women work.

They ignore everything I say. They don't want to go out of their comfort zone but expect women to fly in. Then the threads continue.

The thing with both of the posters you mentioned is that they aren't in any condition to be around a woman. Women don't want bitter, whiny guys who are mad at the world because women don't knock on their doors. They want to date a real man, and I'm sure the women on here can vouch for this.

OMG, this +1000.
Incredibly good idea. This is SUCH a good idea on how to improve your social awareness, and an excellent window into women's daily life & perspective. Don't know why I didn't think about that.... I worked a restaurant as a server when I was about 23, and it was, indeed, a huge part in my growing awareness, in retrospect
Hah, I made such an ass of myself to a bunch of those ladies, but I learned a hell of a lot from it.... But I definitely wasn't the only guy making an ass of himself, so that kinda helped, hehe.
Getting a server spot might be difficult nowadays, economy what it is. Look for a friend or acquaintance who's already in the business at a suitable sit-down restaurant, and see if they can get your foot in the door. This is the most commonly successful means of securing that job.

This is actually one of the most important tactics I think posted on this thread. Take heed, men. And remember that this growth strategy, like so many others in this thread, is a long term one. So don't let yourself slip up by looking for something quick, easy, and significant. It doesn't exist. Stuff sucks now, but keep your eyes on the prize 2 years, perhaps, in the future. Your life can change significantly in that span.

Nice one, Hale_Bopp.

Do you not see the inherent self-fulfilling prophesy yet? You know, I can see you're intelligent, so now I'm starting to think that you ARE doing this to spite us. f*****g christ man, that's just mean.

Half the time i have a trouble being the customer at a restaurant. Theyre just so crowded and noisy. If I actually had to work at one, i'd have a complete mental breakdown.

Then how do you expect to keep a girlfriend? Women like going out to places like restaurants.