Blog post on the epidemic of forced celibacy in males

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No I think that's just the bs of fs

yeah, some guys like it, some don't. many women don't take the full entitlement as well - it's just too long for some people to want to stay out of the working world. i took 4.5 months, and it was about right.

Ok I just read through that whole thread, and honestly I'm now feeling pretty angry.

That article just made me feel sick tbh. It completely objectifies women. I am not just a walking sex toy to be given out as a reward to whoever is 'the most deserving'. I don't exist to pander to the needs of a man just because they went to university, racked up debts and have a job. Does the fact that I went to uni, and now have debts and a job mean that I instantly deserve a man to sleep with?

Henrik Ibsen wrote a play, 'A Doll's House', in 1879. The main character, Nora, realises that she has been brought up to be nothing more than a play thing, first to her father, then to her husband. This article seems to be supporting a viewpoint that even then was being challenged.

Anyway I could rant a lot longer, and at a few particular viewpoints *glares*, but I have work to do.

As far as I could tell (my written comprehension's not always the best, and I may have been viewing it through a lens of bleakness), it wasn't a case of "objectifying" women (of course, they never objectify us, do they?). Rather, it showed that women no longer value the things they used to, and have been taught to be attracted to different things now. That's been my understanding of it.

BPalmer, the issue i not that values or that types of men we find attractive has changed - the issue is that the article states that the changes are somehow WRONG because it has led to some guys not getting the sex or love they seem to think they are entitled to.

Congratulations, BPalmer, you get it. Don't expect the women or even most of the men here to get it.

In Mala Fide is a pretty good blog that I look at occasionally. In fact he did a write-up of one of my posts.

thank goodness misogynists are in the minority here. i understand that you are trying to change that, but thank goodness you have not been very successful.

Yes, I think the blog post author places way too much stock in the institution of marriage -- someone should tell him that there are plenty of men and women in sexually unsatisfying marriages. For someone in the PUA movement, he is shockingly naive about the facts of life post-college, but then again, it probably is a reflection of his age and level of mental maturity.

I do acknowledge that both men and women have unsatisfied needs that can go in that state far too long. We have a society right now that demonizes what should be an acceptable solution to this issue -- legal and regulated prostitution, staffed entirely by consenting adults. My feeling is that in many cases this would provide an outlet and possibly even stave off or reduce the incidence of crimes like rape. The need to reproduce (or at least to perform acts that are like reproduction) are one of the primary drives of a living organism, so it would make sense that people would need some kind of facsimile of a physical relationship if they cannot get one on their own. There's a product here that already has a willing customer base, and this product has been around forever (prostitution). Making it illegal/blackmarket only makes it less safe, less regulated, more exploitative, and more expensive.

the rates of sexual violence do not decrease when prositution is legalized - rates of rape stay the same. also, the rates of illegal prostitution actually increase when there is regulated prostitution.

there are NO statistics or research studies to show that prostitution has any positive effect on society or its victims. it is a way of legalizing something that could only stand to benefit the 'Johns' - not the prostitutes or the rest of our society.

please note that we have no idea how long prostitution has existed - we make an assumption based on the earliest written records, but we have no idea when it actually started.

I would be interested in seeing those studies (do you have a link?), and what environment they did them in. For instance, if these studies were done in Amsterdam, prostitution is still pretty much grey market there (as is the drug market), and is basically policed and regulated by Hell's Angels gangs. I hardly find this to be the ideal white market environment for a study on the topic, and the pricing is nowhere near where it should be.

Same goes for Nevada -- Very limited venues, pricing above and beyond the reach of the most needy, and since its' all in the middle of the desert, it pretty much is going to get tourists who are already in the state to drop a lot of cash. Not much of an incentive for bargain pricing.

In both cases above, I can see the red tape or organized crime kickbacks being far in excess of what they would be in a truly regulated industry. I would suspect this is why illegal prostitution would rise -- our society still has too many hoops to jump through and restrictions to let in most of the qualified and/or motivated employees, and safety is still iffy for the employees.

Rape -- if someone can't afford the legal prostitution in the examples above, it really does them no good, correct? But look at the ghetto, where prices fall precipitously ($10-30 per sex act, depending on what you want and bundled pricing). Much more affordable, and more realistic in terms of where pricing would go, compared to the current $200 and up for current legal, which prices out the lower 30-50% of the available market. I have had very desperate friends tell me that had they been a worse person, they would have considered rape due to how they were feeling. Imagine that someone like this could instead turn to real sex at an affordable price ($50) -- would they not choose this, and get to experience a real woman instead of their hand? Yes, some rapists (not all) rape because they enjoy inflicting pain, fear, and control, but not all of them. Some of them are just very horny, very stupid, and were raised in a moral and ethical vacuum (e.g. parentless ghetto denizens).

Mind you, I'm not a libertarian or even a Republican, and am not pro total free market or unfettered capitalism. In fact, I'm a moderate democrat who sees that for products like prostitution and narcotics, you will never kill demand, making it black market only enriches the worst segment of society (the criminals and the desperate), so the solution really is to bring it into the light. I can go on about this, but it is no secret that about 90% of the cost of black market products are because of the black market nature of the product. Marijuana cost about 1/100 at the source as what it goes for at the end market, the rest of the cost is criminal overhead (smuggling, evading law enforcement, cartel price-fixing, etc.). Bring in competition and more employees whose safety is guaranteed, prices will fall, and quality will rise.

Prostitution is the exchange of sex for goods -- this has been going on pretty much forever, probably even prior to us becoming homo sapiens. We even see it in the animal kingdom, with our primate cousins, for instance. One could argue that in some ways, a lot of casual dating and some loveless marriages (e.g. marrying for money) are essentially defacto prostitution.

Yes, yes. Let us complain about complaints and assume about assumptions. Let us judge ourselves and not other people. Why does everyone sense a conflict of emotion in society such as this? It is not so. A relationship is a choice, it is not a gift. Complaints like this have been happening for thousands of years and yet the naive are now realizing it.

The first misconception is that you cannot acquire someone by the means of being lazy, this is not so. Many people are in relationships because of laziness. Online relationships are at an all-time high and will continue to grow. And those relationships are built on the fact that we sit in a chair and type.

The second misconception is that both sexes require some sort of work. This is also not so. People true to their own selves see the world as an opportunity and show tolerance and patience for others. "Work"... this is not so. We do things out of love for our companions yet we sit here and complain to each other about the upheaval of the world when it comes to thoughts of love when in reality anyone can be in a relationship with anyone else.

The last misconception is that aspies are not meant for relationships. Though life may be hard for us, force yourself to socialize and consciously learn those social skills, and your efforts shall be rewarded, for as a child learns mathematics and language skills you too shall learn the ability to socialize with other human beings, female or male.

If this blogger wishes to complain about his view of the world you should let him do so. Tolerance of others' opinions are needed or 'rants' come to pass such as the past few in this thread. Of course, no offense to you who tell your opinions in a manner of indifference or frustration.

However, the biggest arrogance and evil against another human being is treating them as if they are not one. Objectifying people should not be allowed in this day and age but it is the person who controls the person, and that person has that choice to make whether they want to change themselves or to judge others in the process of their own lives.

read the other threads on prostitution on this forum. the information is there - i cannot link to the studies at work. studies have been done regarding nevada, netherlands, germany, the u.k. and elsewhere.

i can tell you absolutely that the majority of your points above are based on your opinion (i.e. that it has been going on 'pretty much forever'), and are not based on facts at all. everyone is entiteled to their opinion, but i've discussed this with several other people on the forums, and nobody has yet been able to support an opinion like yours with any facts at all.

considering that it is extremely physically and emotionally damaging to prostitues themselves to be involved in the trade, and that they often need social and psychological services on leaving the trade (whether they work at it legally or illegally), there is really no reason for it to be legal. and the black market DOES NOT decrease when the trade is legalized - it increases, because demand increases with deregulation and legalization.

oh, and defacto prositution is not actual prostitution. just ask the survivors of the prostitution trade if they could compare experiences.

I'm not going to belabor this point too much more than this last post, because I think your opinions are already fixed, and I sense that you might have some other issues or things in your history (people you know or have worked with, etc.) that impact your flexibility on this issue --

A -- You say there is no reason for it to be legal -- Why not? Because you personally don't need the product? It sounds very similar to people that say there is no reason to have alcohol or other drugs -- clearly, to some people, there is. Demand is overwhelming. You will NEVER, EVER get people to give up prostitution (either as consumers or producers), alcohol, or drugs on a large scale. Mao could not do it with force (like execution) in China. The only solution would be utopia, and I imagine that people will still want to get drunk, high, and laid.

B -- The black market does not decrease when things are legalized -- False. Case in point, Prohibition. When is the last time you bought illegal alcohol instead of a commercially-produced and legal version? Al Capone made a majority of his revenue from alcohol. What did gangsters turn to when alcohol became legal again? Prostitution and narcotics, the other two major black-market products. By making certain products that have wide-spread demand illegal, you enrich criminals and make them more powerful. Mexico is on the verge of internal collapse because at this point the cartels have more purchasing power than the government does, with much less overhead. This is our fault, and Mexico's -- we have made what should be a very cheap product into an expensive one because we refuse to let legitimate sellers meet demand. So instead, those who are willing to take the risk take it, reap the rewards, charge what the market will bear, and grow more powerful. If you have a HR department and a union protecting your rights, and tort law protecting your business transactions, do you really need a pimp?

C -- Prostitution is damaging to those who work in it. Yes, as are many legal forms of employment with high risk factors. Coal mining, Alaskan crab fishing, the timber industry, factory jobs, the list goes on. Do you not think that corporate office workers have stress from their jobs? Do you not think that I go home, emotionally and mentally exhausted from a day of having to suck up and put up with verbal abuse and high stress, and have to drug myself? Prostitutes often have other problems outside of their jobs, which is why they are doing that job in the first place. Someone who is already a crack addict or some other kind of dysfunctional person is going to be messed up regardless of what job they are in. Celebrities are some of the highest-paid individuals in our society, yet look how messed up they are, and their mortality rate compared to the rest of us. I don't really harbor any special sympathy for sex workers. Some of them are there for factors out of their control (e.g., a terrible and abusive childhood, a life of poverty and ignorance, etc.), and some of them are there because they didn't want to study in high school. Legalizing prostitution would at least give them more rights and protection (like unionization, which has been shown to help) than they do now. I see only upside, and as you yourself seem to insist about the persistence of illegal prostitution when legal prostitution is available, clearly some people are determined to do that job, legal or not.

A - why? because, as i have said twice before - prositution is not a victimless crime. the sex trade workers do not emerge unscathed, whther it is legal or not. if you'd like to say that it my 'opinion' that participating in something that hurts other is wrong, then YES that is my opinion. MY OPINION: hurting others = bad.

so what if people will keep on doing it regardless of criminalization? it doesn't make it right.

B - prohibition is not the same as prostitution. feel free to peruse the actual statistics regarding the prevalence of illegal prositutes before and after legalization or deregulation. you are basing your opinion on a total lack of facts regarding the subject at hand. plus it isn't the same thing to criminalize something that used to be legal, as opposed to decriminalizing something that used to be illegal - they are two separate processes with different social results.

C- we should be helping prostitutes, not just assuming tha they are crack addicts or dysfunctional and therefore relegating them to the trade. the very fact that they may have other issues demonstrates why we should help and support them, not encourage them to debase themselves for money.

"My advice: learn game and give women the sugary poison that will satisfy your needs, while working to get off the grid and living only for yourself and those whom you trust. Your acquiescence to the system is what keeps it alive – refuse to feed the beast and it will starve."

This is a great line. A little late to the party here, but I think this article is pretty accurate in depicting how society works. Doing the right thing and having an active sex life are completely independent of each other.

Selfishness is in style

one other thing. don't discount my opinion because i dont need the product. nobody NEEDS the product. accessing prostitution is a choice, not a need. and as far a sex goes, we all have hands on here, and we can use them.