West vs East : Relationship and family values.

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I don't quite agree with the above.

Smacking kids is alive in well in the West. It's technically illegal---but I still don't think cops would arrest somebody for spanking a kid in the butt in many places.

Oh, nor do I. Just amuses me, as does much of Futurama, and it seemed apt.

I was smacked occasionally as a kid. As I recall, it was more the threat than the thing that worked. I have two daughters, and neither I nor their mother has ever smacked them. When they were young, i wondered if I ever would, but I've never seen the point, and it always seemed wrong to me.

I think like the US, the law in the UK is against anything that leaves a mark, that reddens the skin.

There are other ways to discipline other than spanking. My kids turned out fine without it.

I was spanked with a belt(not excessively) growing up. It didn't modify my behavior because half the time I didn't understand why I was in trouble.

you mentioned it already in a later post, and i agree, the first notable exception that comes to mind is italy. italians usually (or traditionally) stay much more involved and close to their family throughout their lives. meddling between generations is the norm no matter your age. ancestry is valued regardless of social class/social status. if you're rich, but your ancestors were dirt-poor peasants, you're still expected to be proud of your origins/ancestry. it's okay (and normal) to openly dislike your family, but it's shameful to be ashamed of them

italian families are typically full of drama, but (much like all other types of drama in italy) it's seen as normal. property is often shared by a family unit, or even by extended family, in different arrangements depending on things like local culture (italians usually identify more strongly with the exact place where they come from than with the country as a whole. both your place of birth and your place of residence are literally part of your identity in all types of bureaucracy)

i think part of the reason why this still survives in italy is because of how social interaction in general can be so daunting and tumultuous even for people who are used to it and good at it. there's not much of a distinction made between friends and strangers (people will typically just talk to anybody anywhere). there's no real bond formed through social interaction. there's only socialization for its own sake on one hand, and the implied bond of kinship on the other hand. family and familiarity are highly valued even when there's a lot of fighting and ambivalence, or else there's not much of an anchor left in life

while a parent may loudly condemn or even disown a child for a violation of some moral code, a close relative will probably be laughing at it right there. and then the situation may be completely reversed the next moment. it's hard to draw the line between what an italian "truly means" and what is just "expressive language" instead. there's an interplay of both. "is he really that angry about it so suddenly, or is he just venting and lashing out?". in my experience, it's both. there's an emphasis on tradition, but there's also an emphasis on generous exceptions

italian social dynamics can be very weird. overall i don't think it fits either "east" or "west". and probably the same goes for most of the predominantly-catholic world, latin america in particular (though in different ways, just like eastern cultures are different from each other). there are lots of contrasts within italian society itself. for instance, it's one of the most sexist societies in europe. but, at the same time, strong female figures are common anyway, and they fit in perfectly. because keeping the family together is a female role, and family is important (often more important than work or property)

i have my theory about the east-west thing. disclaimer, though: read the paragraphs below as if there's an "i think" before every sentence. i'm really pulling this out of my ass as i write it:

i think it's no coincidence that italy is a notable exception. the east-west contrast comes from "the original" eurocentric division of the whole world into east and west: the roman empire. the traits that most "eastern" cultures have in common are inherited from their respective empires, while for some reason the roman empire was unique at how it perpetuated pride (as opposed to honor) as a prominent social value, with the british empire acting as a sort of second iteration of it, and then the american empire of today (capitalism and globalization) acting as an ongoing third iteration, affecting the whole world to some degree

the natural question from that idea would be "if that's a roman/italian thing, then why isn't italy the most extreme example of it?". i think it's because, in certain ways, it is. but there's also some other cultural values that are particular to italy which counterbalance the trait of pride in ways that other cultures don't. so the trait took larger proportions elsewhere through the expansion of later empires that had roman roots. "roman pride got distorted and magnified when it expanded outside of the original context of italy, much like christianity itself did when it expanded from the levant". i think it's a good way to summarize it (again: still speculating)

In the US, most people seem to move out in their mid-20s, rather than at 18.

At 18, though, parents tend to express to these kids that moving out would be appreciated.

meanwhile, my parents seem to appreciate that i am living with them, at 31

the problem was really that they used to be offended that i usually didn't eat any meals with them. asperger's diagnosis solved that problem. now they let me have my own timing, with no complaints about it, and we get along just fine. i do the dishes sometimes, i water the plants, i help with the groceries, i help them with tech stuff, and we're all good

when i was in college, i used to come back home most weekends, even though i didn't like my parents. it was just convenient (and my mother made sure to make it convenient). and as far as i can tell, it's the norm around here. my roommates did the same. to be honest i'm not sure, but i think most people here actually do live with their parents until they get married, unless there's some specific reason why they would be living somewhere else (mostly work or education). people are more concerned with their finances than with individuality

edit: i just googled it. looks like i was right. according to official statistics, 25% of all people here aged 25 to 34 live with their parents, and the level of unemployment is practically the same between the people who live with their parents and the ones who don't

So are you Italian and living in Italy?

italian, yes. living in italy, no. i wasn't born in italy, but i did live there for some time. not that long, but long enough to see how things work (including a lot of contact with bureaucracy). i grew up eating pasta and hearing italian sayings, and i went to a catholic school with direct ties to italy all my childhood. my grandfather was born a stone throw away from florence. he came to south america for the usual reasons: war and famine. my other grandfather was also italian, though from an earlier wave of immigrants (fleeing earlier wars and famine etc)

even more on-topic:


https://youtu.be/tzQuuoKXVq0

and it's all true. ask any italian, they'll confirm it. what i said about "generous exceptions" can also be reworded as "not taking things seriously"

in my experience, italy has more in common with south america than with northern europe

^ a teacher once showed us the video you posted and said "just imagine it's lebanese flag instead of Italian and it'll still be all true."

I believe there's a Mediterranean culture.

yes, i think so too (which probably has a lot to do with the roman empire and all the trade and migrations involved in it. both caused by the empire, and also what was already there and served as basis for it to thrive). and then it's combined with other historical influences (other empires/religions etc). though the "pride" thing (which you don't really see in the video), maybe it's more specific to italy/europe?

i think, somewhere along the line, honor became pride, and then pride became vanity. and vanity is gradually becoming the norm worldwide ("the third iteration"). cycles of civilization, from communal living at first, to more and more competitiveness throughout history, maybe tied to the speed and depth at how communication needs to happen (getting faster and more shallow over time)

it is weird though how countries like japan can still be so conservative. i guess it's because of how they're so aggressive at being early adopters in other areas. they're "vain" in different ways to stay competitive while maintaining their traditions. but they're probably reaching their breaking point. i think the hikikomori phenomenon is an example of that. sooner or later there's a limit. you can't study 40 hours a day

Not sure what you mean exactly of the pride thing, but Eastern cultures are stronly honor cultures.
I think pride is more related to "not losing face"?

hm, no, i wouldn't use the expression "losing face". i've seen it used as a very characteristic chinese thing actually

it is hard to define what i mean. maybe i'll need some time. but it's clear to me that it's real and important as a social value. it's passed through generations. i can imagine someone's body posture when i talk about it. mussolini was a caricature of what i'm talking about. i think it's more about showing strength (while honor is more about actually having some kind of unity, and vanity is more about drawing attention)