Some questions for Incels after the Toronto van attack

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The_Face_of_Boo
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02 May 2018, 1:59 am

Chronos wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Chronos wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

While I understand the need to be cautious in dealing with certain people, especially in wake of Isla Vista and Toronto, Marknis made a good point in that sometimes we get shot down because of mere assumptions made about us, and being accused of things that aren't even true. I've had a extremely painful experience with that myself.

In the past, other women have not just appeared to have been wary of me, but have been wary of me, and on many of these occasions, I was doing nothing but standing there minding my own business. I can't imagine what they thought I might do, and I doubt they actually had anything specific in mind. While males, on average, are more likely to perceive something as a threat than females, on average, I think (NT) females, on average, tend to pick up on social microabnormalities more often for various evolutionary reasons favorable to survival and protection of their offspring. So some women think I'm creepy. When they discover I'm not really, then they seem to feel completely silly. The positive thing about this is it gives me more personal space.

Your case is strange, I recall (not entirely sure if I recall it right) you said once people yelled or act scared (or of that sort of reaction) in your mere presence?

I find this very strange and extreme, what's your dressing type? Something doesn't add up in your stories.

I think you probably find the situation strange and extreme because you have just never been a female within the world of females. I've heard many males often talk about exclusion, bullying, or poor treatment by other males, and often cite preferences for friendships with females due to this reason, but much the same type of thing happens among females.

I am not talking about the social exclusion case, but about how people you don't know react to you.

But females by default perceive other female strangers less threatening (than male strangers), hence why I find your case even weirder.

Chronos
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02 May 2018, 4:22 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

I came across this interesting old piece, it's about a website founder called love-shy.com:

https://www.elle.com/life-love/sex-rela ... -celibacy/

Quote:

"Really, I want to know," the woman continued. "How many women?"

People on love-shy.com frequently commiserate over moments like these: moments where the assumption is that everyone is having sex, no big deal.

"Really," Michael said. "None."

ON MAY 23, 2014, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger went on a killing spree in Isla Vista, California, murdering six people and injuring 14 others. Rodger described his rampage as vengeance against attractive women for denying him sex and affection. Previous mass shooters—from Marc Lépine in Montreal in 1989 to Pittsburgh's George Sodini in 2009—had expressed similar sentiments. Just last fall, Chris Harper-Mercer, the 26-year-old who killed nine people at Umpqua Community College in Oregon, was posting online about being "involuntarily" celibate.

What set Rodger apart from other "virgin killers" (as headlines have dubbed them) was that he left an extensive digital footprint in an Internet world dedicated to men complaining about their solo state. He'd even argued for a revolution of male incels: "If we can't solve our problems, we must DESTROY our problems. One day incels will realize their true strength and numbers, and will overthrow this oppressive feminist system. Start envisioning a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU."

Michael has nothing but scorn for Rodger, not just because of his senseless, horrific crimes, but also because his behavior demonizes chronically celibate men. Guys who can't get women aren't just losers and weirdos anymore. Now they're losers, weirdos, and potential monsters. This contributes to a climate where, as Michael sees it, it's better to "just keep quiet, because otherwise you can be misinterpreted in all sorts of negative ways."

For Michael, our conversations were minefields, with the potential for misspeaking—or being quoted out of context—lurking in the shadow of every question. He frequently went off the record or sidestepped answering me directly. He emphasized that he'd never liked the "incel" idea in the first place ("It's just a dumb term") and that he no longer even thinks of himself as love-shy. Labels mean association. Association is dangerous. Even his own website is no good anymore. Too much hate, too many "crazy ideas."

The bold part is prophetic, It will happen (Like how it is happening now with Arabs, Muslims and Anything "Muslim-looking" including Sikhs , and like how all American Asians were demonized in post-Pear Harbor WWII....humans are very predictable).

I wish to formally apologize for the sheer stupidity of some of my fellow Americans who continually mistake Sikhs for muslims.

Marknis
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02 May 2018, 8:25 am

Chronos wrote:

I wish to formally apologize for the sheer stupidity of some of my fellow Americans who continually mistake Sikhs for muslims.

Even Hindus get the same miscategorization, especially in the Bible Belt. There's a Hindu temple in my area and it gets mistaken for a mosque.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

I came across this interesting old piece, it's about a website founder called love-shy.com:

https://www.elle.com/life-love/sex-rela ... -celibacy/

Quote:

Love-shy.com gets its name from a psychological study by the late Dr. Brian Gilmartin who interviewed a number of men who suffered crippling shyness to the point that even talking to a woman scared them despite how they badly wanted relationships. Michael isn't the original owner of the forum, he inherited it after the original owner (loveshcom) got married and left the community. I honestly cried when I first read about the love-shyness study because I felt it was describing my fate since, besides a few and unproductive exceptions, I've been too shy to ask the opposite sex out for dates.

XFilesGeek
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02 May 2018, 2:08 pm

goldfish21 wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

MissChess wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Sex workers are human beings too and should not have absorb these men's misogyny so they won't go out and murder people. What the men need is male friendship and lots of therapy.

That's not going to help the men not be incels, which is ultimately where their grievance lies. For as long as they are incels, they are going to feel disenfranchised, and the ones on these forums will probably continue to spread toxicity. As someone who is an incel who does not harbour negative views of women, I can tell you that I've had male friends, and I've been to therapy, and none of that has made me feel better about my status as an incel. And nothing will except CHANGING IT. Failing that, there will always be a part of me that will dwell on my issues attracting women.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Once again, it is not on women to fix these guys. No women, not even sex workers, can do it. It's on themselves to fix themselves.

Once again, if their problem is their status as an incel, how do they go about fixing it themselves? If they can't then nothing else is going to work and they will continue feeling however they feel right now. If they knew what to do to 'fix' themselves, don't you think they'd have done it by now?

So, what's the answer?

Apparently, therapy won't help them, other men can't help them, and they can't help themselves. Do we then force women to have relationships with these idiots so they don't go out spree kills?

That's exactly what the incel groups want.

I know, which is why I addressed the forum with the question.

Several posters have indicated that neither therapy, nor male friendships, nor self-improvement will help these men. So, what's the answer?

Maybe some people won't like this answer.. but I can see one very real possible outcome being extermination by protective Alpha males. First will only be reactionary - some dude rapes or kills, he'll be targeted by loved ones of the victim. But if this thing blows up HUGE and there's a true movement of crazed incels committing rape and murder, I could imagine a future where they're identified online, hunted & exterminated. This would likely occur in less "civilized," parts of the world vs. Western society.. but it's not a far stretch of the imagination for these sorts of things to happen in the USA/Canada. Sane, strong, protective men are not going to stand idly by and allow incels to freely rape & murder.

Due to both personal experience and research, I don't put much stock in male "protection."

The "women and children first" sentiment has been demonstrated to be a myth.

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goldfish21
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02 May 2018, 2:28 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

goldfish21 wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

MissChess wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Sex workers are human beings too and should not have absorb these men's misogyny so they won't go out and murder people. What the men need is male friendship and lots of therapy.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Once again, it is not on women to fix these guys. No women, not even sex workers, can do it. It's on themselves to fix themselves.

That's exactly what the incel groups want.

Due to both personal experience and research, I don't put much stock in male "protection."

The "women and children first" sentiment has been demonstrated to be a myth.

Time will tell.

In the moments after I heard (falsely, as it turned out, thank God) that my 15yo God daughter had been raped, despite my career ambitions that require me not to have a criminal record & have held me back from so much as an assault charge, my thoughts quickly turned to: "Well, I might be going to jail.."

I can't imagine there are too many fathers/older brothers/boyfriends/husbands etc out there who wouldn't have the urge to beat/kill whoever violated their daughter/wife etc if they know who did it. That's probably the hardest part - positive identification. No one wants to punish the wrong man for a crime like that.

I know rapes are relatively common & rapists getting killed by protective men is almost unheard of, but I think if this crap actually becomes a real movement of rapists & murderers that public sentiment will change and they won't be going around doing this unchallenged. Their forums are on the public internet. Some hacker will identify the worst of the worst and either law enforcement or vigilantes will deal with them as quickly as possible. One can hope, anyways.

*For the simply non-sex having males who don't identify with this craziness whatsoever, no one wants to harm you. No one wants to beat or kill you. No one wants to prevent you from having a girlfriend, date, or sex. People are far too busy with their own lives to care about yours or anyone else' life. The anger people have is aimed directly at the incels who promote or actually commit rape/violence/murder. Those are the sexless people that others will remove from the gene pool if they commit violent acts against women.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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02 May 2018, 3:13 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

goldfish21 wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

MissChess wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Sex workers are human beings too and should not have absorb these men's misogyny so they won't go out and murder people. What the men need is male friendship and lots of therapy.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Once again, it is not on women to fix these guys. No women, not even sex workers, can do it. It's on themselves to fix themselves.

That's exactly what the incel groups want.

Due to both personal experience and research, I don't put much stock in male "protection."

The "women and children first" sentiment has been demonstrated to be a myth.

“Women and children first” was a social construct.

MissChess
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02 May 2018, 3:25 pm

I think "women and children first" is always going to be a social construct, but it's rooted in the idea that future generations are worth protecting, which certainly has ties to basic biological imperatives that can, under some circumstances, even compete with the biological imperative to personal survival. YMMV.

Sadly, I see most of the "protective alpha male" concept with a pretty cynical perception. A man will defend his wife, daughter, etc. the same way he'll defend his property, and often for similar reasons.

I read articles by Douthat, Robin Hanson, Kevin Williamson...and I end up just screaming on the inside, because there has to come a point when a woman's right to bodily autonomy isn't something male columnists feel entitled to treat like a thought experiment.

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goldfish21
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02 May 2018, 7:28 pm

Just saw this shared on fb:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/o ... ution.html

Apparently this is quite the topic of discussion lately.

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MissChess
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02 May 2018, 9:17 pm

That's the Douthat to whom I referred. The concept of sex as a commodity that can be redistributed is just wrong on so many levels. Sex is an activity. He might as well be talking about correcting the unfair distribution of dancing.

Consensual sex is an activity. Nonconsensual sex is a crime. Neither of these can be redistributed. It's like he doesn't understand sex, humanity, desire, OR economics.

And yes, it's getting a lot of attention. I find it appalling that in the space of roughly 10 days we've gone from "hateful incel murders people" to "hey, let's discuss these ideas as if they had some kind of human merit".

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kraftiekortie
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02 May 2018, 9:29 pm

That's the whole point: these ideas HAVE no merit.

The very act of discussing them, unfortunately, provides some degree of legitimacy.

Unfortunately, there are many times in what are purportedly "intellectual" discussions when morality is just thrown out the window and disregarded. Morality, contrary to the belief of some, is not antithetical to logic and reason.

Both morality and common sense are often disregarded.

To maintain that these is some sort of logical/reasoned basis to the thoughts of the "incels," is something which is scary. I want no part of any such discussions.

goldfish21
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03 May 2018, 2:03 am

An article about it published in a local gay paper:

https://www.dailyxtra.com/the-misogynis ... nted-86222

Top if the news cycle stuff right now. Which could mean a copycat soon. :/

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The_Face_of_Boo
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03 May 2018, 2:25 am

MissChess wrote:

A man will defend his wife, daughter, etc. the same way he'll defend his property, and often for similar reasons.

This statement is so cynical and extremely misandrist- you're implying that fathers don't have parental love t toward their daughters (or sons), wouldn't a mother defend her daughter too (or son, I don't know why the child's gender would matter here), you know...out of parental love?

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03 May 2018, 1:10 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

MissChess wrote:

A man will defend his wife, daughter, etc. the same way he'll defend his property, and often for similar reasons.

Do you know how many men decry violence against women by starting with disclaimers like "As a husband" or "As the father of 3 beautiful daughters"? They mean well, but they're stating that the primary value of a woman's life is in relation to the man talking. They're undercutting the concept that we need to be ending this violence because those women are human beings, whole and complete.

You don't hear women, in the wake of a mass shooting, saying "As a wife, I find this murder of men particularly abhorrent," because our society already accepts men's lives as having intrinsic value.

Accusing me of misandry for noting this difference is about as accurate and worthwhile of accusing me of racism for saying that Black lives matter.

Wanting, speaking about, demanding equal treatment for women doesn't constitute discrimination against men. Accusing me of cynicism because I mention that men have an extensive history of treating women like property? I'll take that. Tossing out "misandry" because you want to pretend men are the victims here is manipulative. If I'd wanted to describe all men, I'd have said all men...not "A man."

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goldfish21
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03 May 2018, 2:05 pm

MissChess wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

MissChess wrote:

A man will defend his wife, daughter, etc. the same way he'll defend his property, and often for similar reasons.

Are you unfamiliar with women being called the "fairer sex," because they are physically smaller, weaker, and more vulnerable to things like violence & rape?

These are the reasons why fathers, husbands, and brothers etc protect the female relatives in their lives - not because they own them like property. Their sons/brothers/males are typically physically larger & stronger and thus more capable of defending themselves and are less likely to be rape victims, so aren't spoken of in nearly the same protective manner.

Example: Incels aren't demanding that people offer up their sons to them or they'll be raped or killed. They're after women, and women are the fairer sex, and so in turn men with any kind of spine whatsoever will stand up and protect their wives & daughters.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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03 May 2018, 3:47 pm

MissChess wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

MissChess wrote:

A man will defend his wife, daughter, etc. the same way he'll defend his property, and often for similar reasons.

Because the shooting was aimed against women in particular, and so the ideology behind it.

Quote:

You don't hear women, in the wake of a mass shooting, saying "As a wife, I find this murder of men particularly abhorrent,"

Because there was no mass shooting aimed against men/boys in particular which happened in the recent past, if some lunatic lady shot little boys and men and declared she wanted to exterminate the male gender then, with no doubt, you would hear mothers of boys saying things like 'As a mother of two amazing boys, i find this so horrifying". It's natural they would say that.

The way your logic works is so weird and disturbing in order to find this as misogynist.

Quote:

because our society already accepts men's lives as having intrinsic value.

So that's why they have being sent to wars in all human history?

Quote:

Accusing me of misandry for noting this difference is about as accurate and worthwhile of accusing me of racism for saying that Black lives matter.

But your statement was racking with mistandry, you clearly and obviously implied that fathers, by default, lack parental love toward their daughters.

XFilesGeek
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03 May 2018, 4:33 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

MissChess wrote:

A man will defend his wife, daughter, etc. the same way he'll defend his property, and often for similar reasons.

I don't see it as anymore hateful than deciding that women don't care about a man's intelligence/personality/integrity/ect. because they don't think about it when they masturbate.

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