Do you believe in soul mates?

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kraftiekortie
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12 Jul 2018, 9:04 am

It feels good when a lady likes to caress me. It just feels good to me. And when she winks at me.

I'm not "romanticizing it." I'm telling it like it is.

Whether it's "love" could be open to question, I must admit.

There's many reasons why love has been romanticized over the ages. It has inspired literature. It has also caused wars. But it is there, and it is real.

I feel like it's good to romanticize things sometimes; it takes us away from life's drudgeries. As long as you know it's "romanticized."



rdos
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12 Jul 2018, 9:13 am

Luhluhluh wrote:
It's easy to ascribe magic to something you don't understand. If someone doesn't understand what's happening in their body, the literal chemicals that make up the soup that is their brain, I can see why they may believe in things like soul mates or other such mystical beliefs.


There is no need to reduce love to brain chemicals. It just makes the concept abstract and redundant. Love and infatuation have an important role in people's well-being, so it's simply no good to reduce their feelings to "brain chemicals".

Luhluhluh wrote:
And anyone who has ever experienced the effects of Ecstasy can tell you that the "love" feelings can be manipulated artificially.


Drug-induced euphoria has no similarity to love or infatuation so that's simply wrong. For one, infatuation doesn't need to be feed with anything, and it is not addictive, and doses don't need to increase, which makes it very different from drug-induced euphoria.

Luhluhluh wrote:
The truth is - I don't know - more functional and mundane I guess. It takes away that magic that people seem to crave in their lives.


Of course. I wouldn't consider a relationship worthwhile without strong feelings and some "magic". It would just be like any other transaction without that.



rdos
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12 Jul 2018, 9:19 am

Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe in Love...whatever its origins.
Well ... DUH! Love exists; it's just nonsensical to attribute the induction of its associated feelings to anything other than hormones and neurochemicals.


So, isn't it a fact that what you wrote above was the working of your neurochemicals, and so we can just ignore it because it has such a crude origin?



superaliengirl
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12 Jul 2018, 9:24 am

I believe we have several.

A soulmate is simply someone you get a good, deep connection with and possibly fall in love with - a soulmate can also be a friend. If you go to the other side of the world you may meet a soulmate there, and if you go to a new place in your town you may meet another soulmate there that's how I see it. There isn't just one person in the entire world you will be able to form a deep connection with in your lifetime and you don't always fall in love with someone you form a deep connection with even if they're of the opposite gender as there's more to the equation than that but I think it's something that you just know regardless of what your relationship to them are because it will feel so special and valuable.



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12 Jul 2018, 9:26 am

rdos wrote:
...
... whatever ... :roll:


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Luhluhluh
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12 Jul 2018, 9:54 am

rdos wrote:

It's infatuation that floods the brain with "chemicals", and so they are markers of love, not the other way around. Which means that the "chemicals" you are talking about are irrelevant. It's part of the brain's behavioral algorithms to get a crush, which starts the "chemical" process you are talking about. It's the same as the relation between oxytocin and happiness. It's happiness that floods the brain with oxytocin, not the other way around. This is a common misunderstanding in biolological psychiatry aimed at pushing various drugs to affect natural processes.



Okay fair enough.

If "happiness" floods your brain - what is happiness? What is "infatuation?"

Do you have a citation for the bolded text?


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kraftiekortie
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12 Jul 2018, 10:05 am

I believe it's a cycle, actually.

Chemicals breed love, and love breeds chemicals.



Luhluhluh
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12 Jul 2018, 10:30 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe it's a cycle, actually.

Chemicals breed love, and love breeds chemicals.


My understanding is that, for example, a man sees an attractive woman. She has the visual biologic markers of youth and fertility (large eyes, clear skin, a low waist-hip ratio, etc.) AND she is responsive to him. His testosterone drives sexual desire and the initial phase of lust.

The attraction phase is driven by adrenaline, dopamine and serotonin. The final phase (once the adrenaline, dopamine and serotonin settle down AND if you make it that far) is the attachment and bonding phase involving oxytocin and vasopressin.

So yeah, you're right in a matter of speaking.


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rdos
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12 Jul 2018, 11:12 am

Luhluhluh wrote:
My understanding is that, for example, a man sees an attractive woman. She has the visual biologic markers of youth and fertility (large eyes, clear skin, a low waist-hip ratio, etc.) AND she is responsive to him. His testosterone drives sexual desire and the initial phase of lust.


Count me out of that scenario. I certainly don't get a crush based on sexual desire or somebody being attractive. If I would, I would constantly be in the infatuated state, and I'm not. It's an exception to have an infatuation rather than a rule. Also, I get completely asexual when I have an infatuation, so lust and sexual desire has no role in keeping the infatuation going.

Luhluhluh wrote:
The attraction phase is driven by adrenaline, dopamine and serotonin. The final phase (once the adrenaline, dopamine and serotonin settle down AND if you make it that far) is the attachment and bonding phase involving oxytocin and vasopressin.


Not true either. For many NDs, it is infatuation and obsessive thoughts that builds attachment. For many NTs, it's sexual intercourse that builds attachment. None of those processes are based on neurochemicals.



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12 Jul 2018, 11:22 am

rdos wrote:
For many NTs, it's sexual intercourse that builds attachment. None of those processes are based on neurochemicals.


... and it's chemicals that lead up to the sexual intercourse.

Come on now, you're pulling my leg - this is like sixth grade science class stuff here.


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AngelRho
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12 Jul 2018, 11:27 am

Luhluhluh wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I really do wish people would stop romanticizing the concept of 'love'. I mean, humans are little more than poo-flinging apes that have evolved enough intellect to have both spoken and written langue, to use fire, and to create a global communications network. In spite of all of this progress, there are still people who believe that there is but one person out of 7.6 billion other who was specifically born to be their "soul-mate" -- the one-and-only person who is destined to fulfill their every need, and who can inspire them to the greatest heights of creativity and self-expression.

The flaw in this concept is that there is no guaranty that any one person will ever find his or her "soul-mate". Given the opportunity to pick one person out of 7.6 billion people, and to have that one person to be your "soul-mate" is roughly 0.00000001316 percent -- there is a greater chance of winning the next Powerball lottery (about 0.000000342 percent) or of being struck by lightning (about 0.0001 percent).

And, yes, that "dizzy, dancing way you feel" when you've found your "soul-mate" really is nothing more than a surge and flood of endorphins and hormones causing euphoria and releasing other chemicals, like oxytocin -- the "love drug" -- it's what new mothers feel when they nurse their babies for the first time. It emotionally 'bonds' them to their babies.

So, while the most accurate definition for the term "soul-mate" may be "The one-and-only person whose very existence induces feelings of euphoria", it all comes down to a simple matter of brain chemistry.

Only this, and nothing more.


Yeah, all this.

It's easy to ascribe magic to something you don't understand. If someone doesn't understand what's happening in their body, the literal chemicals that make up the soup that is their brain, I can see why they may believe in things like soul mates or other such mystical beliefs. And anyone who has ever experienced the effects of Ecstasy can tell you that the "love" feelings can be manipulated artificially.

The truth is - I don't know - more functional and mundane I guess. It takes away that magic that people seem to crave in their lives.

Meh...

There are two forms of “magic”:

1. Mortal attempts at manipulating the supernatural.

2. Illusion.

I don’t believe the first to even be possible. To believe that it can be done and to act on it is the worst kind of evil there is.

The second form is real—“real” fakery. Smoke is real, mirrors are real. What flashing lights, etc. do is provoke a response within the perceiver. Even knowing that it’s fake won't diminish our response to it.

This “magic” is the illusion of love. It’s enjoyable, yes. It’s a lot of fun. But it’s just a feeling that can come and go, and fade as quickly as it sparked.

It’s not a bad thing. I just think it’s important to keep it in perspective.

For love to be real, it has to be tangible. Which is why I measure love out in the action it produces. You can be completely emotionless and still love someone any time you act towards their benefit.

The feelings of love are a result of a stimulus feeding through our own predispositions towards those causes. A welcome touch as opposed to an unwelcome touch, for example. Your mind is mostly already made up about how you’ll respond to most things, and you have some choice in the matter. So I don’t buy the whole “love is a chemical reaction” bit. There has to be some underlying cause, otherwise you’d expect to see some uniformity in responses to stimuli.



rdos
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12 Jul 2018, 11:32 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe it's a cycle, actually.

Chemicals breed love, and love breeds chemicals.


Agree.
Something triggers a crush which sets off the chemicals, and then the chemicals keep the infatuation going. The trigger is a brain "algorithm", not a chemical. It is also the brain that decides to terminate the infatuation and let the chemicals go back to their normal state. Therefore, the chemicals are indicators that somebody has an infatuation, but they are not related to why. It's also not possible to consciously induce or terminate an infatuation, as that ability would interfere with courtship and pair bonding and thus would be maladaptive.

I think oxytocin works in a similar way. When a person is happy, this triggers oxytocin production. The presence of oxytocin in the brain then produce a sense of well-being, and so there is a positive feedback loop. It can also go in the reverse direction, which leads to depression. Depression also has a feedback loop in neurochemicals. In this case it is also feelings (happiness, sadness, depression) that are triggers, and then these are reinforced by neurochemicals.



rdos
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12 Jul 2018, 11:39 am

Luhluhluh wrote:
rdos wrote:
For many NTs, it's sexual intercourse that builds attachment. None of those processes are based on neurochemicals.


... and it's chemicals that lead up to the sexual intercourse.


That's the crude model I've seen in some science papers, and it simply has no validity whatsoever. Not even for NTs.

Besides, if it was the "infatuation chemicals" that led to sexual intercourse, how would that explain the large proportion of NDs that are asexual, and don't want sexual intercourse? Or do you propose that asexual NDs cannot be infatuated?

It simply has to be a brain algorithm, and not the chemicals themselves, that leads to a desire for sexual intercourse for NTs and the desire to obsess for NDs. That's because it's the same chemicals in all animal species.

Luhluhluh wrote:
Come on now, you're pulling my leg - this is like sixth grade science class stuff here.


It should be removed from the sixth grade "science" class immediately.



rdos
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12 Jul 2018, 12:01 pm

To keep this at a scientific level, there certainly are studies that confirm the role neurotransmitters has in maintaining various states.

For instance, this is a study that links serotonin to position in a dominance hierarchy:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Dominance

When an individual moves in the hierarchy, the serotonin levels change.



hurtloam
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14 Jul 2018, 5:08 pm

I believe I meet men whom I can relate to and who seem just right for me. Whom I have adored. I meet them rarely. They are special.

But they never feel the same about me.

I imagine that the soul mate is one whom you fall for and adore and they are one who feels the same as you.

I only want one... just one person to actually care about me too.



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14 Jul 2018, 5:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
I really do wish people would stop romanticizing the concept of 'love'. I mean, humans are little more than poo-flinging apes that have evolved enough intellect to have both spoken and written langue, to use fire, and to create a global communications network. In spite of all of this progress, there are still people who believe that there is but one person out of 7.6 billion other who was specifically born to be their "soul-mate" -- the one-and-only person who is destined to fulfill their every need, and who can inspire them to the greatest heights of creativity and self-expression.

The flaw in this concept is that there is no guaranty that any one person will ever find his or her "soul-mate". Given the opportunity to pick one person out of 7.6 billion people, and to have that one person to be your "soul-mate" is roughly 0.00000001316 percent -- there is a greater chance of winning the next Powerball lottery (about 0.000000342 percent) or of being struck by lightning (about 0.0001 percent).

And, yes, that "dizzy, dancing way you feel" when you've found your "soul-mate" really is nothing more than a surge and flood of endorphins and hormones causing euphoria and releasing other chemicals, like oxytocin -- the "love drug" -- it's what new mothers feel when they nurse their babies for the first time. It emotionally 'bonds' them to their babies.

So, while the most accurate definition for the term "soul-mate" may be "The one-and-only person whose very existence induces feelings of euphoria", it all comes down to a simple matter of brain chemistry.

Only this, and nothing more.



This is the truth, but you will not be able to convince someone who uses the word 'soulmate' in the first place.