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Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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The_Face_of_Boo
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18 Apr 2012, 3:29 am

LKL wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
As some women have explained it to me - and I'm inclined to agree, in some cases - shy does not necessarily mean nice. You can be shy and still be needy, possessive, jealous, and controlling, none of which are particularly nice to the other person. You can even see that mentality in some of the comments on the thread, with some people saying they're being "ripped off" by the "jerks". Women don't *owe* you anything, either individually or collectively.

Of course, it goes without saying, you can be shy and not have these qualities, or confident and have them all in spades. Looking back at my own history, I'm inclined to think that although I thought of myself as "nice" because I was quiet and shy, I was also very possessive and clingy and jealous.

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@ Boo: humans are neither gorillas nor bonobos.


True, but we share a lot of things (Genetic fact).



edgewaters
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18 Apr 2012, 4:12 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Honestly, I noticed that most men in relationships are likely to be possessive, clingy and jealous.
The jerks just hide their "clinginess" (sp?) better.


Well, if it's invisible, it doesn't really matter. It's what you're putting on the other person that matters.

What I've observed is that nice or not has pretty much 0 impact on success with women. Being a jerk isn't going to help someone who's shy. The only factors that really seem to matter are confidence and social skills.



Declension
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18 Apr 2012, 4:52 am

Nice Guys (not to be confused with nice guys) pretend to be fair-minded victims, but they actually operate on double standards. They assume that guys are rational actors, but that girls don't really know what's good for them. ("Why does she go out with him and not me even though he treats her so badly?") They come up with manipulative strategies for getting the girl who has put them in the Friend Zone, but they become bitter when other guys try strategies which work better, such as being confident. They say things like "I wish I didn't have a crush on my female friend, but I can't control it", but they get annoyed when their female friend becomes uncontrollably attracted to some other guy.

I don't exactly get all the girls myself, but I refuse to become a Nice Guy. I know that there are any number of reasons why I don't have a wonderful love life, and I know that most of them are things that I could change if I put a lot of work in. If I don't put the work in, I can't cry foul if I don't get great results.



edgewaters
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18 Apr 2012, 5:39 am

Declension wrote:
Nice Guys (not to be confused with nice guys) pretend to be fair-minded victims, but they actually operate on double standards. They assume that guys are rational actors, but that girls don't really know what's good for them. ("Why does she go out with him and not me even though he treats her so badly?") They come up with manipulative strategies for getting the girl who has put them in the Friend Zone, but they become bitter when other guys try strategies which work better, such as being confident. They say things like "I wish I didn't have a crush on my female friend, but I can't control it", but they get annoyed when their female friend becomes uncontrollably attracted to some other guy.

I don't exactly get all the girls myself, but I refuse to become a Nice Guy. I know that there are any number of reasons why I don't have a wonderful love life, and I know that most of them are things that I could change if I put a lot of work in. If I don't put the work in, I can't cry foul if I don't get great results.


Pretty much sums up how I see it, too. I should know, I'm a recovering Nice Guy.

I think part of the problem is that social constructs say that guys can't be passive, and women can't be aggressive, and this leads to some unhealthy problems for a portion of both groups. I think the gay community has a big advantage over us heterosexuals in this respect, because they simply don't have these constructs (nor could they).



Boxman108
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18 Apr 2012, 2:38 pm

Declension wrote:
Nice Guys (not to be confused with nice guys) pretend to be fair-minded victims, but they actually operate on double standards. They assume that guys are rational actors, but that girls don't really know what's good for them. ("Why does she go out with him and not me even though he treats her so badly?") They come up with manipulative strategies for getting the girl who has put them in the Friend Zone, but they become bitter when other guys try strategies which work better, such as being confident. They say things like "I wish I didn't have a crush on my female friend, but I can't control it", but they get annoyed when their female friend becomes uncontrollably attracted to some other guy.

I don't exactly get all the girls myself, but I refuse to become a Nice Guy. I know that there are any number of reasons why I don't have a wonderful love life, and I know that most of them are things that I could change if I put a lot of work in. If I don't put the work in, I can't cry foul if I don't get great results.


There's a difference between being confident and being a dick.


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LKL
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18 Apr 2012, 5:17 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
LKL wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
As some women have explained it to me - and I'm inclined to agree, in some cases - shy does not necessarily mean nice. You can be shy and still be needy, possessive, jealous, and controlling, none of which are particularly nice to the other person. You can even see that mentality in some of the comments on the thread, with some people saying they're being "ripped off" by the "jerks". Women don't *owe* you anything, either individually or collectively.

Of course, it goes without saying, you can be shy and not have these qualities, or confident and have them all in spades. Looking back at my own history, I'm inclined to think that although I thought of myself as "nice" because I was quiet and shy, I was also very possessive and clingy and jealous.

QFT.
@ Boo: humans are neither gorillas nor bonobos.


True, but we share a lot of things (Genetic fact).

We're genetically closer to bonobos than we are to gorillas (also fact), so by the 'evolutionary psychology' BS logic, we should all be happy free-love masturbators.



minervx
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18 Apr 2012, 6:31 pm

Boxman108 wrote:
Declension wrote:
Nice Guys (not to be confused with nice guys) pretend to be fair-minded victims, but they actually operate on double standards. They assume that guys are rational actors, but that girls don't really know what's good for them. ("Why does she go out with him and not me even though he treats her so badly?") They come up with manipulative strategies for getting the girl who has put them in the Friend Zone, but they become bitter when other guys try strategies which work better, such as being confident. They say things like "I wish I didn't have a crush on my female friend, but I can't control it", but they get annoyed when their female friend becomes uncontrollably attracted to some other guy.

I don't exactly get all the girls myself, but I refuse to become a Nice Guy. I know that there are any number of reasons why I don't have a wonderful love life, and I know that most of them are things that I could change if I put a lot of work in. If I don't put the work in, I can't cry foul if I don't get great results.


There's a difference between being confident and being a dick.


Declension has it right.

Many "nice guys" aren't actually all that nice. Many of them are just desperate and willing to get some action or affection from the first person they meet, through flattery and fawning.



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18 Apr 2012, 6:38 pm

minervx wrote:
Boxman108 wrote:
Declension wrote:
Nice Guys (not to be confused with nice guys) pretend to be fair-minded victims, but they actually operate on double standards. They assume that guys are rational actors, but that girls don't really know what's good for them. ("Why does she go out with him and not me even though he treats her so badly?") They come up with manipulative strategies for getting the girl who has put them in the Friend Zone, but they become bitter when other guys try strategies which work better, such as being confident. They say things like "I wish I didn't have a crush on my female friend, but I can't control it", but they get annoyed when their female friend becomes uncontrollably attracted to some other guy.

I don't exactly get all the girls myself, but I refuse to become a Nice Guy. I know that there are any number of reasons why I don't have a wonderful love life, and I know that most of them are things that I could change if I put a lot of work in. If I don't put the work in, I can't cry foul if I don't get great results.


There's a difference between being confident and being a dick.


Declension has it right.

Many "nice guys" aren't actually all that nice. Many of them are just desperate and willing to get some action or affection from the first person they meet, through flattery and fawning.


Not so much desperation as it is actually being decent and putting others before yourself.


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18 Apr 2012, 6:59 pm

The dreaded "nice guy" is an internet stereotype that you most likely will never cross paths with in real life. Having said that, many immature girls tend to like wannabe gangsters with oversized, sagging pants who treat them like crap, even if said wannabe is a scrawny wimp who can't deadlift the bar alone and has a room temperature IQ.



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18 Apr 2012, 7:06 pm

Kurgan wrote:
The dreaded "nice guy" is an internet stereotype that you most likely will never cross paths with in real life. Having said that, many immature girls tend to like wannabe gangsters with oversized, sagging pants who treat them like crap, even if said wannabe is a scrawny wimp who can't deadlift the bar alone and has a room temperature IQ.


Some what true but if they wana date a real gangsta so to speak date some one from a hard up bringing like me they will soon find out it's not all it's cracked up to be.



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18 Apr 2012, 7:11 pm

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a decent person. It's being so subservient (putting them above you, rather than seeing them as EQUALS) like you suggest that puts "nice guys" in the friend zone.

I know the intent is to make a woman feel special.

The end result, however, is different.

NO WOMAN feels special by a guy who showers her with compliments, frequently gives her gifts and calls her all of the time or whenever she posts a facebook status about her being upset. The reason: the guy is most likely doing all that because he does not talk to a lot of women and she is one of the first people he talks to.

Why treat a stranger like a princess when you don't even know her? Because she's a woman and she's breathing? A person feels much more special when they are treated by someone else BECAUSE they find them special (compared to the other people they met).

That "jerk" who talks to many women, but gives a moderate amount of attention to one woman, would make her feel more special (as it would actually be because she is unique from the many other women he talked to).

People want to be friends or in a relationship with someone who sees themselves as EQUAL to them, a mutual partnership. Anyone guy who feels that by dating him a woman is doing him a favor doesn't value himself enough.



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18 Apr 2012, 7:22 pm

Kurgan wrote:
The dreaded "nice guy" is an internet stereotype that you most likely will never cross paths with in real life. Having said that, many immature girls tend to like wannabe gangsters with oversized, sagging pants who treat them like crap, even if said wannabe is a scrawny wimp who can't deadlift the bar alone and has a room temperature IQ.


I've come across many of those "dreaded nice guys" in real life. They were never even close to getting the woman.

Even that gangster guy with the baggy pants would be more successful than the nice guy. But a decent person with a self-esteem who treats a woman like she is equal to him, rather than being subservient, and gives her a little bit of a challenge, rather than desperately offering himself to the first stranger he meets, will not have any competition from those jerks.

Some of this "nice guy" stuff is just plain misogynistic. Basically it's saying: "Women are immature, irrational and have poor judgment because they CHOSE to date him instead of a nice guy like me".



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18 Apr 2012, 8:04 pm

AutisticMalcontent wrote:
Well I'm going to cite off a cliche' that everyone is familiar with- "Nice guys finish last". I am a strong believer in this cliche', the reasons being very simple, according to what I've observed. First off all, nice guys are typically "normal" and are not nearly as interesting/exciting and wild as overly confident guys/jerks/charming guys. Note that I am not using jerks as a synonym for all confident guys romantically, just a select group. Secondly, nice guys tend to be shy and not nearly as assertive romantically like confident guys tend to be. And finally, nice guys, in their shyness, don't understand about how to approach girls/women romantically, and therefore they appear awkward around them.

These are the reasons why nice guys fail I believe. But I also have another belief and I'm curious as to how many agree with me on this. Since nice guys are often rejected because of their shyness, girls tend to go out with guys that exude confidence, and who also tend to be jerks after a while. This is my opinion, I think that girls who reject nice guys and date jerk-type guys more than deserve the heartache they will eventually feel, whether it be a bad breakup, being used, or whatever else. I'm not saying that every girl has to date one particular nice guy, but I'm saying that if a girl rejects a nice guy for a jerk, isn't it fitting that she pay the consequence of her choice? Kind of like the physics principle "For every reaction there is a opposite and equal reaction"? Just my thoughts, tell me what you guys think ;)


In my experience it's the real jerks who tend to be 'normal'....for instance it was the jerks who fit into the popular clique at my school, not the 'nice' guys or whatever. Typically I find more unusual people tend to be more pleasant to be around and not quite so judgmental. But of course when I say nice I actually mean kindness not manipulation disguised as kindness....but then guys like that aren't actually 'nice' are they.

All females dislike any guy who comes off as akward? I shall disagree there. Why should having a personality that in no way resembles a jerk such a bad thing anyways?

Also that depends on the nature of consequences we're talking about......no a guy does not have the right to harrass a woman just because she went for the wrong guy and they're mad that the girl didn't go out with them...and vice versa, there are better ways to handle things.


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18 Apr 2012, 8:13 pm

The idea is to treat everyone with decency and respect regardless of who they are. It should be common sense to not act like a douche or walk all over other people.


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18 Apr 2012, 8:57 pm

Boxman108 wrote:
The idea is to treat everyone with decency and respect regardless of who they are. It should be common sense to not act like a douche or walk all over other people.

! yes.


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18 Apr 2012, 9:01 pm

why be selfish, be a jerk, and treat the other person like crap?

why be desperate, and treat some stranger you barely know like she is above you?

why not just treat the person with respect, as equals?