Promising to change

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I have been dating Jennifer for almost two years. During the first half a year, I enjoyed every bit of it. But after that, there were three manjor stressors that were ruining our relationship:

1) My parents did not approve of her; I talked about it in these two posts: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt108539.html and http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt108762.html . There were always conflicts in plans between the plans of my parents and her plans. I was torn between the two. But each of the two sides were accusing me of "choosing" the other one. So from Jennifer's point of view I gave in to my parents too much and never stood up to them. She also was pissed that I never defended her when they said negative things about her either -- but she konws very well that it has to do with my not being able to stand up to my parents in general, as opposed to my lack of feelings towards her. Additionally, I was hiding Jennifer from my parents. During the first half a year, I avoided telling my parents that she exists altogether. Then, later on, I was complaining that I always had to pay at the restaurants or do other things with Jennifer that were costly, mainly because my mom was sending me money (I lost my support through Teaching Assistontship due to the social skill issues I encountered while teaching, and I couldn't get support from my thesis advisors because one of them was retired professor and the other was working at another university) and if money was gone faster than usual, my mom might guess something might be going on. So basically I didn't care about money, I only cared about my mom finding things out and thats why I kept talking about money -- and htis really bothered Jennifer since it revealed how much I was controlled by my mom.

2) I developed some of my own resentments towards Jennifer. It started off from her taking me to dance class (it was also half a year into relationship, so it roughly coincided with the time when I told my mom about her) right at the time when I had a profound revelation about a certain physics idea. I was trying to think about that idea in my head while in the dance class. On my own, that is something I am very used to doing -- in fact, before that dance class there was a physics conference, and I didn't pay attention to a single lecture because I was trying to think through my own idea. But in case of dance class it started a lot of fights because Jennifer interpreted my poor performance to be a consequence of my thinking about physics. A couple of weeks into dance class, Jennifer cancelled the whole thing altogether. But this didn't solve anything, because by that point she was very angry at me in connection to physics in general. So, for instance, when we talked on the phone and I am quiet she would ask what I was thinking about and I would say physics. During the first half a year it didn't bother her at all. In fact she would joke back "you always think about physics". But then something similar occured after the dance class, and she started a big fight over it. Also, after the dance class, she set up a schedule that I am to study physics up until 6 or 7 PM and after that I am to spend time with her. I hated this schedule since I am normally a night person so it really took away from my study time. Then also when we were "spending time together" she would be watching TV up until 3 AM and then I would be sleepy and tired the next day which would additionally compromize my physics. I am not that big of a TV person, most of what she watched was only semi-interesting, so in light of all that sleep deprivatiuon I would fall asleep right in the middle of her TV. But then she would get angry at me for falling asleep. And like with physics, she became angry at me for falling asleep in general, even if it happens when she is driving somewhere and I sit in the car, for some weird reason it is horrible if I fall asleep. Then there were also chores she wanted me to do, such as wash dishes or help her cook. She claimed that washing dishes is only few minutes and cooking is may be half an hour or an hour. But when I was doing it on my own, it took a long time, so again it compromized my physics. THere were also minor annoyances, such as her asking me to bring her water, when she was perfectly capable to do it herself. Also, she had frequent back and leg pains and she was asking me to rub her back and legs to get rid of that pain. I am not very effective at it -- she claims it is because I don't know how to massage -- but still at times it took an hour for me to do that until she is satisfied. All that completely took a joy out of a relatinoship, since the relationship became "political" with a bunch of chores I needed to do, and a bunch of fighting whenever they were not done.

3) Also there was an issue of justifying myself. I might make some comment about something I don't truly care about (like you don't truly care about her decision on how to pay off the loan) and accidentally I made some assumption that offended Jennifer, and she would be mad. Then I would justify myself that I actually don't care so much about it and the assumption wasn't made on purpose, it was just an accident. Then Jennifer would be mad at the fact that I am justifying myself, instead of moving on. According to Jennifer justifying=arguing, but I don't view it that way. To me, justifying= seeking peace, while arguing=seeking conflict, so the two are quite the opposite. But I can't get it through to Jennifer. In fact we been to science museum and in that museum there was a section where we could experiment on how different sounds affect the person. In that section there were four recording of four couples, one involves justifying, the other involves anger, and I don't remember the other two. We were told that three of these four couples were going to break up, and one of them will stay together, and we were asked which one would stay together. My answer was that justifying couple would stay together, while Jennifer's answer was that angry couple would. Well, Jennifer's answer ended up being the right one, and I never understood why. Jennifer told me that the reason justifying is wrong is that if I justify my actions, I blame the other person. But from my perspective why should ANYONE be blamed at all? All I want is piece, I don't want myself blamed, or the other person blamed either; I just explain what went through my head. Jennifer said that there is IMPLICIT blame that I would make without meaning to. So in other words, something implicit done without meaning to is WORSE than anger, even though anger is explicit and deliberate? Wow!

Anyway, to make long story short, the relationship started on October 13, 2007. I told my parents about Jennifer on late April 2008, although they started criticizing her on August 2008, which was triggered by the conflict of her wanting to go to North Carolina and my parents wanting to go to Ukraine. The dance class, which lead to subsequent problems started in Jun 2008; that is, it was AFTER my parents learned about her and BEFORE they were criticizing her. I also believe that if this whole conflict with dance class and other things didn't start, Jennifer might have been more willing to just let me go with my parents to Ukraine, in which case they won't be criticizing her, not as much as they did anyway.

Now, while "dance class" was only June 2008, and "North Carolina" was only August 2008, both have set up tension that lasted for the subsequent year. The "dance class" basically set up Jennifer to be very controlling (see part 2), while "North Carolina" set up my parents and Jennifer to hate each other, which resulted in fights over ALL of the future plans we ever had (part 1). So basically, I have been suffering the whole last year, looking forward to move to India for the post doc (if not for post doc, I would have been in USA, which is where both my mom and Jennifer are, while my dad is in Russia) to "run away" from all that.

The reason I didn't break up with Jennifer was that during Spring 2008 she was very sick due to her bleeding, she lost all of her friends, and even family wasn't very supportive of her, and I was the only person she trusted when I was taking care of her. In fact she later told me that this was when she fell in love with me, while back in 2007 when relationship started she weren't trully in love, she just didn't tell me that because she didn't want to upset me. So for that reason I felt that if I were to break up with the very person I was helping while she was sick, I would be "betraying her". Then in July 2008 she got into trouble in school as a result of having been sick for so long, and she was very depressed. Unfortunately, I was having a two-week visit with my advisor at a different university at the time (I went at the same school as her, but my thesis advisor was at a different school, which is allowed), and then subsequently I felt bad that I didn't cancel the second week of my stay to come see her when she was depressed. She got into trouble right between my first and second week with my advisor, especially after hearing things like "I am very lonely" over the phone in a very weak voice. So, as I kept remembering the phrase "I am very lonely" I couldn't possibly bring myself to break up with her and hurt someone so vulnerable.

In fact it was one and only relationship when I was staying with someone FOR THEM rather than for me. I constantly felt trappled because "for myself" I wanted to break up with her, but I couldn't do that because I would feel awful for betraying her so I was forced to stay. I was even hoping she would break up with me herself, just so that I wouldn't feel as bad about it. In fact, from time to time I even tried to give her reasons to break up with me by, for example, admitting that I am fantasizing about other women, and that she was physically less attractive than them. But I was trying to make the blow as soft as possible, so I was also telling her that she is better than them personality-wise and I would choose her over them overall. I was hoping to do *just enough* for her to break up with me, and then fake trying to apologise and get her back and fail. Because in this case I wouldn't have to feel bad since I tried my very best to fix situation at the end, and, at the same time, I would be free from her.

Now HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART : now that I left to India my attitude completely changed. She was trying to work with me on part 1 (i.e. my mom issue) so she was periodically sending me papers to read and wanted to hear my feedback. Anyway, in one of these papers they were talking about the way a person who had controlling parents will project that on their partner and perceive their partner as controlling. So then I told her that yes it applies to me. I would have NEVER done it in USA, but I guess I figured that I might as well do that since I was in India and didn't have to see her face to face. I admit, part of my motivation was to get her to break up with me. Anyway, we then had a discussion about it, and it revealed a few very interesting things. First of all, she NEVER EXPECTED me to sit and watch TV with her till 3 AM! When she was mad that I was falling asleep, she was mad at the fact that I would never go to bed on my own, unless she sends me. Thats why she angrilly said "just go to bed" since that is what she WANTED me to do. But I misinterpretted that statement and decided that her sending me to bed was a punishment for falling asleep, so each time something like that would happen I would start a fight over it.

The other thing I learned is that, right before I left to India, I took her to one of the restaurants where I used to go on my own back at the time when I was single. She actually ENJOYED that restaurant, because it was calm and secluded! Now one reason I felt "trapped" is that I felt that I was "not allowed" to do things I normally enjoy doing, while with her, since I have to stick to her plans. Well, once I was in India, and thus was comfortable to actually bring that up and talk to her about it, she said that she WANTED me to show more innitiative like that throughout a relationship! So now I feel really bad that I didn't. If only I was taking her to that restaurant, or been doing other things I would have been doing on my own, this would have been completely a win/win situation. On the one hand, I would not have been controlled by her. And, on the other hand, SHE would felt that I contributted something to the relatinoship. In fact, one thing she told me is that the reason she was asking me to get her water instead of getting it herself is that she felt that I didn't contribute anything, so she was desperately trying to get me to contribute SOMETHING, even if that something is getting her a water. Well, if only I took her to that restaurant or shared other htings I enjoy doing, then she wouldn't feel that way, would she, and then she wouldn't be askning me to get her water either.

And finally the other thing I realized is that during the first half a year of a relationship, we were doing exact same thing as we were doing later, namely watching movies. It is my ATTITUDE towards it that changed. During first half a year, I was thinking "I am so excited to go watch that moive with Jennifer, I can't wait", while later on I felt "again we are going to the same exact boring theater doing exact same boring thing we were always doing, which interrupts my physics". Likewise, during the first half a year we were ALSO staying up till 3 AM, or even 4 AM. But back then it was a GOOD thing -- I was always sad when she told me she had to go to bed early or something like that. On the other hand, later on in a relatinoship this became a BAD thing. So again, it is about me, not her. And as far as thinking about physics, she never became more controlling of my thoughts. It is simply that during the first half a year *I* was too excited to see her to be thinking about physics, and later on *I* was the one who started thinking about physics more because I was not as excited to talk to her; her change in behavior was merely a reaction to mine.

In fact, looking back, during the "bad" part of a relationship she did a nubmer of GOOD things she haven't done during the "good" part. For instance, in July 2008 she took me to Russian restaurant (I am from Russia) that was an hour and a half drive from where we lived. But I didn't even notice that there was anything nice about her doing it to me. Instead, Russian restaurant was an interruption to a paper I was working on, and she was "controlling" for insisting that I get into the car by a certain time to go there (even though restaurant would have closed if I got into her car any time later). But right now when I am in Inida I look back at that Russian restaurant and FINALLY see how it was a GOOD thing. I mean, right now I am working on my physics paper, get stuck, don't feel as productive as I wish I did, and there is NO ONE to support me, NO ONE. But back then, I was equally stressed about that paper, and then there was this "escape" where Jennifer took me to Russian restaurant. Even though she doesn't know physics and couldn't help me, she was clearly "on my side", simply because I could share with her about the stage of work I was at. She was also "on my side" in that we actually went there an hour later than originally planned, just so that I could finish the paper. But you see, back then I didn't see any of it. It is not even a logical thought process, it is like does this room looks bright or dark? Back then I looked at the situation and FELT controlled, and right now I look back and FEEL I have been supported.

And this again brings up the issue of innitiative. Perhaps I was bored because I was not showing innitiative myself which made me feel trapped? So what if I were taking her to the restaurant I took her the last day we saw each other, as well as other places i tend to frequent on my own? Then may be I would have enjoyed relationship better, so then I wouldn't have been thinking about physics while talking to her, and we won't be having so much fights?

I also realized that part 3 might have well been contributting to part 2, since by justifying myself I used up her patience so she was no longer patient enough for part 2. I also realized that, even though I "don't agree" with her about her philosophy of justifying oneself, I don't have to agree with EVERYTHING; happiness in a relationship is more important. So if I were to simply stop justifying myself "because she said so" I would have made her happy. As a result, she would make ME happy. Then, being happy, I won't make as many screw ups, so there wouldn't be any NEED to justify myself any more! But I didn't think it through that way. Now I did.

Anyway, right now after I realized all that I really want her back. And now I am no longer doing it for her. I am doing it for me. She is no longer sick or depressed, in fact she is very happy these days as she got a new job. So, I no longer want to be with her out of pity. Doesn't it prove that my attitude changed? A year ago I was HOPING she would stop being sick/depressed so that I can break up with her. But right now that she is no longer sick/depressed I want her for me. So this proves that I finally see some positives in a relationship which I didn't see before. But, ironically, Jennifer broke up with me only a WEEK or two before I saw it. She broke up with me 3 months ago. My frist reaction is "I hope we stay broken up" because there were too many times in the past when she would threaten with break up and then change her mind five minutes later. But then, two weeks later, I realized that I actually wanted to be with her. So I was trying to pressure her into getting back togheter, but to no avail. Now, don't you see how ironic it is? When I wanted to set her up to break up with me, it took OVER A YEAR to successfully do that. YET, once she have broken up, she would NOT get back with me, even after I tried very hard to perswade her FOR THREE MONTHS.

So it is like a very SHARP LINE. When she is on a relationship side of that line, NO MATTER HOW CLOSE SHE IS TO THAT LINE (she said she was very close to breaking up for few months at least) she would do her best to stay on a relationship side of that line. Yet, once she decided to cross that line, EVEN IF ITS BEEN ONLY A WEEK OR TWO, then she would INSTIST on staying on a breakup territory, no matter how hard I push. She herself says that she has been giving me a million of chances so she doesn't see a need to give me a million and first. Looking back, I agree with her: indeed she DID give me a million chances. But this only brings up a question: how come there is such a SHARP line between a million and a million one? How come when I FAKELY asked her to be together during all these million chances (while in fact hoping she would break up) these FAKE requests worked within at most five minutes, while after a million first chance, three MONTHS weren't enough to get her back togehter?

Anyway, when I am telling her now that I would change, I am being very honest: I tell her that I can NOT change the giving into my parent part (part 1) but I CAN change my own resentment part (parts 2 and 3). She tells me that for her part 1 is a major issue, so she can't get back with me until I do BOTH parts. I then ask her this: what would have happened in IMAGINARY situation if parts 2 and 3 were never part of the picture, while part 1 was just as serious as it was? Her response to this is that she doesn't know, and that she doesn't want to speak of imaginary situation. So in other words, she have just admitted that it is POSSIBLE that she could handle part 1 by itself, but at the same time she says that she wants me to fix both before she can date me again, so do you see how it is inherently contradictory?

Anyway, when I FINALLY got her to talk about parts 2 and 3, she told me that changing parts 2 and 3 are not as easy as I think it is, and it might take years. So she wants me to work on my own with a councellor while in India and then when I come back 2-3 years later (after having done with a post doc) she will see if I have accomplished that. I then confronted her: how can she say that a change can take years if she HERSELF was insisting that I learn to stand up to my parents (part 1) within a SHORT period of time? I find part 1 much HARDER than parts 2 and 3, so she can't say that part 1 should take a short period of time while part 2 should take years. She then told me that she knew that both parts take years. She only wanted for me to MAKE SOME PROGRESS within a short time. But since I was refusing to make "some progress", now she wants me to do EVERYTHING before she considers dating me, and EVERYTHING would take years . I then tell her that yes I refused to make SOME PROGRESS in the past, but now I am more than willing to do that. She says that it is too late. I then ask why is it too late? She says that it is because she doesn't have years worth of patience to deal with it. I then point out that if I were to start my change three months ago, it would still be years minus three months, so how come she would have been willing to do it then but not now? Her only response is "well you didn't". I then say "yeah but I am willing to do that now", and she says "it doesn't matter because we are not together any more". So what is so magical about us "not being togehter any more"? We were never married or anything, so there were no papers signed, it is all in our head whether we are "together" or not, so why is it so hard to change a mind on a decision to break up?

Anyway, her other answer is that I have been telling her that I would change throughout the whole "bad" part of a relationship, and I never did, so why should she believe me now? But like I explained, my ATTITUDE changed. What I promised to change back then were my ACTIONS. I never even CONSIDERED that my actions might be due to resentment issue. I thought that just like I can play a happy music on piano while being sad, I should similarly be able to act like I am in love with her when I am not. So I blamed my inability to do that on my lack of social skills, NOT on resentment. When I was promissing her I would change, I really meant that I would pay more attention to my communication style. But right now looking back I see that my "communication style" was never a problem during the first half a year of a relationship when I didn't resent her. So right now I see that it is NOT playing a piano, and my attitude (which I used to regard as irrelevent) DOES come out in various ways I am unaware of. So now I am willing to work on my attitude by eliminating its roots, and I figured out the root of an issue too: I never have shown any innitiative which is what made me feel controlled. Well, her response to that is that I can't show innitiative because I am in India now. And I am telling her that she should trust me that I would do that when I come back from India. She says she has to see if FIRST before she believes because I broke up too many promises before. So in other words, if I didn't break previous promises, then India wouldn't have been a problem since then she would trust me that I would do in 2 years what I promise I will, but since I did break them, thats why India is a problem.

She also feels that I lied to her because I never told her about part 2 until after I left to India. But I don't feel that I lied. Lying means trying to do something FOR MY OWN GAIN. But since I was hoping she would break up, I didn't have any gain in telling her that I love her, which only made her stay with me longer. Instead, I was doing it FOR HER, not me, so its not lying. Now, yes I perceived her as controlling. But that was NOT a choice; its like I can't CHOOSE whether the sky looks blue or green. So if I have an eye desease that makes the sky look green it is not my choice. Likewise, my resentment of Jennifer was not my choice either. What I DID with it was my choice. And, I perceived my CHOICE to avoid telling her what I feel as my being very nice and caring towards her, in fact, so caring that I could sacrifice my own happiness by continuing to do what SHE wants me to do and pretending to be happy. My inner struggle just hurts me, not her, right? Well, right now I see that it is wrong: my "inner struggle" DOES hurt her because it affects the UNCONSCIOUS aspect of my behavior. But I didn't realize that: I thought that if I intend to be nice (whether I resent that person or not) and it doesn't come out nice, it means I have problem with social skills and thats it, hence all of my "promises to change" regarding social skills. But now I see that resentment IS part of the equation since this wasn't an issue in first half a year. I also see that resentment IS a choice in a sense that I didn't choose to look at the facts more closely and re-evaluate things. But you see, it didn't even occur to me before. I mean, I can also re-evaluate my home adress to see may be I have forgotten it. I simply assume I didn't forget it. Likewise I simpily assumed that Jennifer was controlling and it DIDN"T OCCUR to me to re-evaluate it. Well now it did.

So do you think she should give me another chance now that I have this revelation?

Anyway, as I was trying to get her to be with me the last three months, her promisses kept deteriorating as well. This happened fairly quickly:

1) LATE AUGUST:

a) she agreed to see if our communication becomes more positive, and if it does, she can re-consider dating me in October

b) She changed her mind: it shouldn't be October but rather November 10, so there would be one positive week for every negative month (she counted the number of negative months that we had, and then counted out the same number of weeks)

c) In order for our "communication to be more positive" it has to occur, right? Well, all of a sudden she has plans with her friends and other stuff, so that she can't talk at all. She blames it on the fact that after I left to India she kept asking me to set up a messenger or something so we can talk and I kept procrastinating, so she found other things to do. Well FINALLY I was no longer procrastinating, I went right to the store and got myself a messenger. YET, she was no longer willing to talk because it was too late.

2) BEGINNING OF SEPTEMBER

a) She said the November 10 thing is silly because it is like "asking her to put her feelings on a timeline" (in other words she DOESN"T KNOW one way or the other)

b) She knows for a fact she can't do that until after Christmass. This contradicts part a when she didn't know one way or the other.

c) She expects me to do things I can't possibly do while in India. But that is my problem. *IF* I do them then we are together.

3) END OF SEPTEMBER

She doesn't want to be together until I am back from India, period.

4) BEGINNING OF OCTOBER

a) The breakup is permanent. The word permanent implies it won't be reversed even after I come back from India (although she didn't explicitly say it; but she knows that I know the enlgish word "permanent").

b) She doesn't want me to talk to her at all for two months so that I can get over her (now contrast it with the way she wanted me to talk to her every week so each week can make up for a month).

So what do you think? Do you think she should give me a chance?

Ironically, if I were doing my best then I would say "sure, since I was trying and failing for a whole year I don't have skills to maintain a relationship so go ahead and break up". But I admit that I was NOT putting much effort due to my attitude and thats why I feel like "how do you know I wouldn't have skills to make it work if I did put more effort which I am willing to do now, so why not try?"

Last edited by Roman on 25 Oct 2009, 9:41 am, edited 4 times in total.

It is not really up to anyone but her if she will give you another chance. Sometimes though, if enough bad blood happens between two people it is just best to move on. It sounds like a lot of mistakes were made by both of you, and I agree that she seemed wishy washy the last few months... but none of that changes that she's made a decision and no one's opinion on this site will truly validate your feelings that it is the wrong one because it is only her's to make.

Notice that in the poll I didn't ask "will she give me another chance", rather I asked "do you think i deserve another chance". So even though she probably will NOT give me more chances, the answer to poll question might still be yes if you think she is unfair.

Debating on whether she is fair or not will only make you crazy. Like I said, it seems she was not terribly constant with her thoughts and emotions, but it does not make them invalid. Emotions are not the same as, but not lesser than facts. They are a completely separate sub language if you will.

It probably does seem unfair to you because now you have found this insight and you want to apply it. This is logical. However, you must understand that she may have at the beginning of this new insight been trying to do the very thing that you did while you were in the states. She may have been trying to let you down "gently". Which to be honest I think you did not grasp the idea of gently very well, because if one did not know you had Asperger's they would be inclined to believe you were merely playing head games with her.

Another note worthy complication with your theory is that telling a lie is telling a lie, regardless of your intentions. To tell a lie to be kind is still to tell a lie. Not to be confused with being mean spirited or overly blunt. For example you could have told her you felt she was being bossy, or that you were unhappy. She most likely would have been upset, but it is the right thing to do.

So yes, perhaps she was unfair, but it was in the same way that you appear to have been.

So to sum up your original post... you've been jerking this woman around, for a period of time humiliating her with your attempts to make her breakup with you (and surely resenting her even more for not having confidence to do so). What you described is the worst scenario of colossal jerk behaviour/ gaslighting/ toxic control by passivity that can put a healthiest partner in a mental ward - next to that is only physical abuse. Now that she on her own pulled some strings of your pushey-pulley game, you want her back.

Do not get me incorrectly, I sincerely commend you on your post factum analysis (this is a rare outcome in similar situations!) of not taking initiative, more precisely, inverting the roles in relationship which yet again made you resent her more: men, Aspies and not, resent women organising surprise restaurant trips, but will never tell us to NOT take charge of planning what is supposed to be quality time together! (google "psychcentral babyman" for useful read).

Now this lady seems to be highly emotionally intelligent (the illustration about the museum incident is very telling; read some Gottman to find out answers about couples' conflict dynamics); and you are highly hard-science intelligent. You could have learned so much from her, if only you were not so self-centered, if only you put her interest first. You could have been a perfect couple. Except that you never teamed up with her. Relationships are about teaming up - 2 against the entire world, against parents (and your own children) if needed. I hope you consider teamwork in your future relationship. Good luck.

Do you deserve a second chance? I honestly have no idea. There's so much narrative history, that it's a bit difficult to encompass it all.

Maybe the bigger question is, even if the two of you gave the relationship another chance, would it be different? Certainly you are aware of things now that you weren't aware of when events were happening in the relationship. But are you ever going to be a position to give her the attention that she wants from the relationship?

My own experience is that my relationship (18 yrs) involves a person who has a great deal of independence. We each have our own lives, and they intersect over a broad area of common interests, and the physical space that we share.

The toughest times in our relationship were when we moved to new cities in my foreign service career. I would be moved, with the job waiting for me (and of course, my preoccupation with getting accustomed to the change of location/patterns/etc.), meanwhile he would be along for the ride, but without the supports that I had. Once he had work, and the ability to pursue his own life and interests, the challenges in our relationship would diminish.

The point of which is, while you had a relationship for a couple of years, were the two of you the right mix of personalities to maintain a long relationship?

I voted "you deserve a second chance but can't comment on the second part".

I think it's really good that your attitude has changed, instead of just the actions. However, it is possible that there are still some more realizations that you have to make... so in other words your own transformation/learning process about this is not yet at the point where you'd be able to sustain a long-term relationship with her, or perhaps with anybody.

As you said, you used to be in the relationship for her, but now you want to be in the relationship for yourself. What about being in the relationship for both of you? That's the only way any relationship is going to last long term. It looks like before, you didn't really understand what this relationship can do for you, and perhaps you took it for granted. However now that you are lonely in India, you now finally see the merits of the relationship and want to make amends. I'm a strong believer in second chances, and we're all human and we make mistakes, and the best we can do is learn from our mistakes and do our best not to repeat them. But that doesn't mean that people are obligated to grant us those second chances, especially immediately. If Jennifer has genuinely moved on, you have little choice but to move on, and learn from the experience.

A few other points:

1) Not liking a relationship and then trying to do various things on purpose to get her to break up with you is very passive aggressive. It is not good; it underscores the communication problems you two had in your relationship.

2) A lie is a lie, regardless of the intent. The intent only affects how the lie will be received by those affected, but does not change the fact that it is a lie.

3) It looks like you had trouble in your relationship regarding priorities. What is more important to you, physics or a long-term romantic relationship? Do you "work to live", or "live to work"? You must know the answers to those questions in order for you to make logical, reasonable future plans about the work-life balance in your life.

I think I forgot to mention that examples such as telling her that I am more attracted to other women to get her to break up were quite rare.

A lot more common scenario was simply lack of effort to change my behavior since it is not worth it anyway. For instance, I didn't stop myself from justifying even though I knew it angered her, because the worst possible consequence of justifying, which is a break up, isn't that bad after all. But justifying was NOT designed to get her to break up. In fact it is something I do with EVERYONE even when I am highly interested in them! And even if I do put an effort not to justify I tend to fail. But due to the fact that I weren't interested in her I didn't put as much effort to stop the impulse to justify as I would have with others in similar situation.



Actually, if there were some surprises comming from Jennifer I would have liked it. The reason I felt "trapped" is because there were too much routine. I guess it is part of my personality anyway. For instance even in my own life if I spent too much time at a particular school I start looking forward to transferring out elsewhere, simply because everything is "too boring". When I am on my own, there are ways to relive it by taking random walk somewhere. When I am with someone else, it is not as easy because I also have to stick to their routine, too, which puts my life into even smaller box so I feel desperate to get out.

Now I know that Russian restaurant actually fits the description of "surprise restaurant". But I guess it was too late since by that point in my subconsciousness, Jennifer was associated with "all this boring routine", and thus Russian restaurant also got lumped into "all this boring routine" box, even though logic says that it was anything BUT routine. If she were to take me there a few months earlier, I would have appreciated it MUCH more. Again it is probably something to do with my mindset. Once I get bored living in a particular area and start to look forward to moving out in my next stage of school, then EVERYTHING in that geographical location is "boring", regardless of the content. So just like everything in Michigan was boring becaues I been to Michigan long enough, in the same way everything that Jennifer did was boring as well.

But now that I am out of situation, looking back it is not that bad after all. Now in India I WISH I was in Michigan and I see how totally NOT boring it would have been. I wish even stronger to be in Minnesota -- the state I was before Michigan, which, too, was "boring" when I actually was there. In the same way now I look back to Jennifer and wish I was with her. But now that I realize this about myself, I am more than willing to try to change it if only I am given a chance



Actually, I was always telling the girls that I WANT them to take charge, I even used the word I want them to lead a relationship. The reason being is that I have very difficult time even leading a conversation. I can't innitiate any conversation at all, which is why I am a loner. So if I am to take a lead I would screw up the first date. Now once relationship started, same thing. I won't be able to thikn of things to do or anything like that.

Now I always thought of gender roles to be political, so I thought I can fully enjoy a relationship where girl leads, as long as I am not so stubborn about these political concepts. But now I found out that feeling "trapped" wasn't political. I don't have to remember that I am a boy and she is a girl to feel trapped; I simply feel trapped, just like I feel hungry or thirst or heat. So could it be that the reason boys should lead a relationship is that boys are more likely to feel trapped than girls are? May be its like this: a man needs more food than a woman. It has nothing to do with politics or gender roles; it is their phisiological needs. So could it be, similarly, that a man needs more freedom than a woman, which is again just different needs, and THATS why man should lead?

Anyway, in case of Jennifer I also asked her to lead. But she refused, and insisted that I lead. Also during the first half a year she kept telling me that I should have more innitiative, or else she might stop feeling attracted to me. I kept responding by saying that I don't have skills to but if it is so important for her I will try; but I can't promise anything since I don't know where to start.

Actually she told me that one reason she fell in love with me in Spring 2008 when she was sick is because that was the only time when I actually did lead. For instance, she was sleepwalking and she kept wanting to "go to work" in the middle of the night and I was stopping her. But again this is not the only factor. The other is that I was very caring in that I was sacrificing my studies in taking care of her. So I guess it was the combination of making an initiative and being caring that made her fall in love with me. She claims that both of these disappeared once she was no longer sick.

However, starting from dance class (and dance class was the point when she stopped being sick) she no longer was telling me to take innitiative and started being bossy like I described in the post. I guess her taking innitiative on its own is a good thing, but overall it was part of the "package" that I didn't like, which was why I was looking back to first half a year of a relationship. And now, three months ago, I have learned that actually she STILL wanted me to take innitiative even later on, she just stop saying it because she already said it enough times. If only I knew it and if only i saw the connection between this and resentment which I didn't, I would have been able to do better job.



Actually this is one of the main things I liked about her during the first half a year of a relationship. Whenever we had a disagreement, she would always write to me very long emails (probabably of the same length as the posts I am making in this forum) calmly explaining me what my mistake is, and what are her expectations. She was writing me long emails every few days, and persisted for three months!

This had ended in the end of January 2008 (3-4 months into a relationship) when we had a fight in which I actually swore at her. At that point she said that one of the things that she liked about me is that whenever we have a disagreement, we can calmly sit and discuss it; but now that I swore at her I ruined that image so she doesn't like me nearly as much. Also at that point she told me that she doesn't have any more patience to write to me long emals that she used to.

Now, she had a VERY bad attitude for the other three weeks that followed that swearing incident. But that was completely cured on Valentines. My mom happened to visit me then, and I didn't want to spend time with Jennifer because I was hiding her from my mom, but Jennifer pushed me to spend time with her by threatening to break up with me. Anyway, DESPITE the fact that she was the one who pushed me, she really appreciated me for the fact that I actually DID spend time with her, and in fact did more than she asked: at some point she said that I can go home, but I said "no lets go see a movie". So after Valentines she became really positive about me, and the "bad three weeks" were officially over.

Then, of course, starting from March 2008 she was really sick and I was taking care of her. That was when she fell in love with me. She admitted she was not in love with me before, even though TO ME it feels like the best period of our relationship was October 2007 -- January 2008, she claims she only liked me then but was not in love with me; but starting from March 2008 she actually was in love. So, this means that the "three bad weeks" were over FOR SURE at that point.

However, it is still true that I NEVER got any long emails from her explaining why I did something wrong. During March -- April period (which was when she was sick) things were great, but that is because we never had a fight on the first place, NOT because she was willing to write to me very long emails explaining things. Once we started having fights (from dance class on, and dance class happened in June 2008), she would just sigh and say that she doesn't want to talk about it. So this makes me wonder, could it have anything to do with her email after I swore at her when she said she won't be able to explain things to me the way she used to? I guess I am almost certain it does NOT have anythign to do with it, since it was followed by a "good" period of time when she was sick; but who knows.

The other explanation for this, which I believe I heard from her, is that after she was sick, she still had some residual signs of her sickness, so she simply didn't have as much energy to explain things. I believe that is quite possible. She also claimed at some point that her sickness made her less patient in general. This is very conter-intuitive since the period of time when she was VERY sick was the best one in our relationship. But I guess I can make sense of this by saying that when she was VERY sick she was, for the large part, out of it so she couldn't get mad. But once she was healthy enough to get mad, that was when she still didn't have patience due to being sick, so that way her sickness affected it both ways.

Finally, one other thing that she recently told me is that when she was writing me long emails, she knew she won't have patience to do that forever, from day 1. Her hope was that I would learn something from these emails so that, at some point, she won't have to write them any more. But since I didn't learn anything, that was why she ended up being so frustrated with me later on in a relationship. Well, that makes sense, except that I didn't know that that was her expectation. I really assumed that she was planning to write these emails forever, so I weren't putting any effort in generalizing what she writes to future situations. If only she were to include that sentence "I can't write it forever" put in bold, in the first line of her first long email, then may be things would have been different.



Actually these were the words I was using when speaking to her. Her response was that its not her who is not on my side, it is me who refuses to be on her side. I then told her that THE PAST (including my own past behavior) is out of my control, so since now I am sorry for what I did in the past, why can't we both be on the same side trying to fix it? She got mad at me whenever I said something like that because from her point of view refusing to be responsible for the past is the same as refusing to take responsibility. But that is not the way I see it. When I envision someone who "refuses to take responsibility" I would envision the person who would NEVER do anything, past or future. I was not that kind of person at all. I was desperate to reverse the past just so that I can put the best possible effort into NEVER messing it up again. Once it is messed up it is pointless (which is why I weren't putting effort into relationship since I perceived it as already meassed up), so I wanted to first fix what was messed up, by telling her to "forget the past" and then never mess it up again. She said that if I tell her to "forget the past" I am "disrespecting" her since she has a right to be angry. But angry is not a good feeling, so from my perspective if anything I am doing her a favor by asking her not to dwell on the negative emotions; even though the real motive is doing favor for me not her, still my ultimate motivation was piece between two people, which is just the opposite to "fight" or "disrespect" which were the things she accused me of.

Anyway, my perception on "being on the same team" is for her to HELP me fix the messes I created since we are "on the same team". But she didn't want to do that, because she already done plenty of things (such as Russian restaurant) none of which were appreciated. I would again tell her that I am sorry for my past behavior, so since *I* am sorry, can't *we* now get on the same team and BOTH fix it together? She would say no. And her refusal to be "on the same team" started at least few months before she broke up with me.



Well, remember how I listed partents as issue number 1, and I said that I only promise to change 2 and 3, but NOT 1. Thats the thing. I perceived parents to be my authority figures ever since I was very little. I can not help seeing them that way. So if that was the ONLY reason for a breakup, I would have agreed with a breakup. The only reason I am so upset is that 2 and 3 are also part of the equation, which makes me think what if part 1 was the only part, and then may be Jennifer would have been willing to accomodate.

Complicated story. But why does she keep putting off having a restart of communications? I've had someone keep putting me off, and I sort of wrote off the possibility of dating her because I thought she kept finding other plans, and later I found out there was a problem. This question may not be before you to consider if she puts you off again and again. Maybe she's seeing somebody. Maybe whatever health issue she had never really went away and she doesn't want you to see her in her current state. How do you know how well she's really doing unless you've seen her in person lately? Can you be sure she's telling you the truth about her recovery, her job etc?

What's the reason for wanting this particular one? Is it difficult to develop a rapport with another? Have you bonded strongly enough to require a long recovery before moving on to another? Having AS may mean that we're perceived as having a serious flaw on par with being severely overweight or having some other serious health problem. People pair off with other people who have similar overall dating market value. Do you perceive her as being on par with you?

I used to believe that I didn't have any serious flaws because I take care of myself, I don't smoke, I have university degrees, etc. but at some point I realized that I am somewhat antisocial at times, and i don't have a lot of money, and these are serious strikes against me, so my perception of my market value has changed accordingly.

When I said I want to have a relationship "for me" I meant to emphasize the part I was missing. But in reality I do want it for both of us.

Now you might say that if it is for both of us, why am I forcing her to agree when she doesn't want to? Well I guess I just always imagine that she has different Jennifer's inside of her. I believe the "suffering Jennifer" which I encountered when she was sick always wanted to be with me. But I was the one mean to "suffering Jennifer" and eventually she got so sick that her voice was too weak to be heard; or perhaps she started to sleepwalk and "went to work", or perhaps she even died. So since she no longer has "suffering Jennifer" inside of her, thats why she is so happy with her life, including no longer having me in it. But I really care about suffering Jennifer and even though she probably already died I feel desperate to bring her back to life because I care about her.

I guess this started from the time when she was despressed in July 2008. Like I mentioned in the original post I was seeing my advisor at a different school at the time so I was not there for her to help her. Later, she was put on antidepressants. She described her experience on antidepressants to be like a "wall" so that she really wants to cry and can't because she is "behind the wall". I then came up with a theory that antidepressants don't actually help Jennifer. Rather, they kill "suffering Jennifer" so that the rest of Jennifer that stays alive can be happy. But I feel sorry for suffering Jennifer. So I feel like if only I came early to emotionally support her, then I wuold have taken care of sufferning Jennifer and helped her to be happy; but now she has to be killed instead through antidepressants.

Then, similar experience to that effect happened in November 2008. We were watching dr Phill's show after which Jennifer said that she realized why our relationship went bad. It was one of the few times when I actually admitted to things that I did wrong and told her that I would try and change them. Then she simply told me "I missed you". Now, how could she have missed me if she was the one mad at me these past few months? So, I felt that it is "suffering Jennifer" that missed me, while "angry Jennifer" didn't. So once "angry Jennifer" saw that I can be trusted with "suffering Jennifer", she let "suffering Jennifer" out and she told me that she missed me.

Now suffering Jennifer is the one who was really sick, the one whom I had to buy groceries. I even remember one day when I was few hours late bringing groceries back, and how bad I felt, while Jennifer kept telling me that it was okay. And now suffering Jennifer has to wait for me not for few hours, but for over a year. And she is still very forgiving. After all when I came back in November, she didn't ask me why I was away for so long; she simply told me that she missed me. I believe that she is that same way as well, because she is not the same person as angry Jennifer.

Finally the other thing that supports my theory about two different Jennifer's is that right now she is completely different person from before. In the past, she had only few close friends, and it took for her a very long time (up to a year) to trust them because she was hurt when she was hurt in the past, mainly the family's neglect but also her ex. I was one of the FEW friends she trusted, and at some point she lost even them. Well right now she is not that way at all. She is signed up for may be 20 different meetup groups, and made lots of friends. Also in the past she was VERY serious when it comes for relationships, and one thing she HATED about her ex was that he was promiscous. Well, right now she says that she wants to sleep around in order to get over me. She also says she doesn't want to have any serious boyfriend because even the thought of a boyfriend reminds her of me; she just wants lots of friends with benefits. This is again just the opposite to what she used to be before. And finally her whole conversation style while talking to me is entirely different. If I bring something up about our relationship, she would just dismiss it with a joke, which sounds VERY much like some women I talked to before her, but NOT AT ALL like her.

So to answer your question as to whether I want a relationship for me, for her, or for both of us, here is the answer. If I will have to be with either "angry Jennifer" (last year) or "happy Jennifer" (right now) it would be only for me, since I am pissed at them. On the other hand, if I will have a relationship with "suffering Jennifer" (March -- April 2008 when she was sick; July 2008 when she was depressed; November 2008 when she said she "missed me") then I would do that for both of us. I still feel bad for suffering Jennifer since I wasn't there for her this whole year, AND I finally realized my own needs. So thats why it will be "both of us". And since the person I am talking to is NOT the suffering Jennifer, I believe suffering Jennifer still misses me. So no matter how much force I put onto any of the two other Jennifer's, I still do it for both of us as far as suffering Jennifer is concerned.



And I learned how not to do that: all I have to do is realize that I have other options. That is the root of any of my bad behavior. Most often when I do something wrong I know that its wrong but I feel "pushed to the wall" because none of the other options are available. Well, now I see that they are.



I was assuming that what is inside of me is immaterial, so a lie about my feelings by telling what I am SUPPOSED to feel instead of what I really feel is not really a lie. But now I see it very much IS material, because my feelings materialize on how many "accidental" mistakes I make in communication. I didn't know that before because I blamed it all on Asperger. But now I know since looking back I see it wasn't an issue during the first half a year of a relationship since my attitude was better.



Physics has been my life time goal since I was 9 years old, so it is definitely number 1. Actually, that is what Jennifer was upset at, she was telling me that she wants to be "first", but she felt that she was "third" (behind physics and my parents). This is totally inconsistent with her attitude during first half a year of a relationship. Let me give you a specific example. I was applying for a post doc in Jan 2008 (I didin't get any offers, which is why I had to wait a year and only started a post doc in Jan 2009). So anyway I promised to her that I was only applying to Europe "to say that I did my best" and I probably wont get any offer and if I will I wont go (well THAT was a lie, since I most certainly WOULD have went; I said it that way because I knew I probably won't get an offer on the first place, but since she wasn't satisfied by that alone, I had to say a lie to make her not worry). Anyway, her response to that was that career is number one so I should go wherever I get an offer. And yet a year later she was telling me "relationship is number one and career is number two" which completely contradicts what she told me back then.

Now, when I try to point out that contradiction to her, she told me that back at the time when she said "career is number one" she wasn't as much in love with me as later on (remember, I mentioned she seriously fell in love when she was sick). But, again, it is hard to believe. Because according to what she tells me, during the "good" part of a relationship she wasn't in love yet, while during the "bad" part she was. But my impression is just reverse since during the "bad" part she was a lot more demanding. Now, yes, wanting attention is part of love. But wouldn't a genuine love include true concern about the other person?

Anyway, going back to more recent time when she wanted to be "number one" she was telling me that down the road when we live together, she only wants to spend four hours a day with me, and these four hours include eating and taking shower. So if sleeping takes 8 hours I still have 12 hours to do physics, which is a lot. But I guess my question is that if physics takes more time than the time spent with her, isn't physics really "number 1"? She never had patience to answer that question because the moment she heard "physics comes first" she would flip out. Finally I was able to get the answer out of her. Her answer was that in a situation when there is a family emergency (i.e. one of our kids is at the hospital) and physics emergency (i.e. a very important talk I have to give in worldwide conference where it would be a huge embarassment if I don't show up), which of the two would I choose? Well, in this respect I might as well choose family. This would probably only be one incident in the lifetime if at all, so it won't ruin my career. I would be a lot more concerned about something on a regular basis. But it took MONTHS to get her to say it that way to me. So all these months until she said it we were fighting unnecessary about physics comming first.

I feel that I can very well identify myself with Jennifer (there was an outrage about 'Cassandra' stuff on these forums, but I come to conclusion that Aspies are attracted to a specific group of people personality-wise, and that same specific group of people are attracted to Aspies, M.Aston describes it down to woman's hair colour and length in her book, and I found it shockingly correct, but I digress). Reading Roman is some sort of healing to my own relationships woes (a painful, prolonged breakup 1+ year ago, where my beloved also in very subtle ways was destroying all that was best in me [how about this example: "so I hope that when I am having a child with you, or somebody else, it will be a natural delivery"]. So thank you Roman, you are spontaneously helping another human being. The thing is, these passive aggressive attempts are made when a partner already knows your personality pretty well, knows they love you, are ready to write them off as part of your general bundle of idiosyncrasies, that is why this passive aggressive way seldom works, is extremely destructive and has long-term psychological damage consequences).

Now, we here cannot tell why Jennifer was putting off communication. My guess is: she is going through an individuation (or re-individuation) process, which is definitely a positive. I shut everyone and everything down from my environment, cut off communication channels, in a very Aspie way, in order to do my own battle. I am afraid to reestablish some of those communication lines right now, partially because I feel guilty, but mostly because I feel unsure if it is not too early (in which case the whole work of last half a year would be undone). Jennifer might be careful about similar things, but I might be off the map.

And back to Roman's circumstance #[1]. I see this as a recurrent in people with Asperger's. There is this specific dynamics between them and their parents, where adult-to-adult conversation is seemingly impossible. If you internalised that you're an adult now (heck, you're doing a postdoc in physics, going to influence progress on this darn planet!), you would experience an entirely different quality of relationship with your parents. IT'S YOUR CHOICE. It was due to your behavioural choices that a vicious circle Mother-Roman-Jennifer evolved the way it did. The fact that both parties were telling you, Roman, that they felt you took sides with the "other" side are suggestive that their perception of the situation was outcome of narratives (analyses, possibly complaints and criticism) that you supplied to them. I recently watched this brilliant documentary about Asperger's - The Autistic Me - and the theme line of mother characters in this film is definitely something that captured my full attention and depicts evidence of what I am trying to describe here, but have no label to that (they should better make a continuation dedicated to those mothers!).

you did not read Stinkypuppy's message carefully enough. What you're doing in your reply to Stinkypuppy's point is more deflection (though you call it 'justifying')

But wouldn't a genuine love include true concern about the other person?
- it's a Yes for "personal wellbeing", and No for giving up a human connection (something that Jennifer very likely sees as paramount) for career, which you will yourself reevaluate multiple times as you will age.

I am also curious, do you have a clear picture of what was that that Jennifer ultimately wanted from a relationship with you?

Better let this one go and not be tormented by possibilities. You said she wants to sleep around and get over you. This means she has moved on/is moving on. When people recover or improve their lives, they often want to "just leave it all behind". The problem with becoming involved with someone in a compromised situation in hopes that a better relationship will come about when the problems are fixed, is that the relationship is then likely to end. You're tied to "suffering Jennifer". The "happy Jennifer" wants to leave behind the "suffering Jennifer" and all that the former life entails, which probably includes you, and move on. It's time for you to end this particular obsession.

Relationships can end simply because the partner is associated with a bad period in life, even if the partner assisted and acted in good faith. A guy my family knows took care of his wife when she had cancer, and after she recovered from the cancer and graduated from university, she left him, then made up a whole bunch of lies to try to get him in trouble during the divorce. I guess making him the bad guy was her way of resolving a cognitive dissonance arising from wanting to leave someone who cared for her.

BTW I voted for option 2. I can imagine it to be difficult to evaluate how one feels about someone when the person is standing right there, telling you about the things you need to change.

If you read the list of answers I made, her final answer was that "it is permanent" so she is not putting it off she just sticks to "no".

Also, the other interesting thing is that she didn't put it off in a classic sense. I mean, she didn't wait for October to put it off to November. She changed the dates right in august. At first she said october, then a week later it was November. With November same thing. Even before September ever started all of a sudden she didn't want November either.

Basically what happened is this. She gave me some promise. Okay fine. But then she would bring something up (in a joking fashion) which doesn't feel terribly consistent with that promise. And then I would ask her "how can you say such and such, if you also promised me (insert October or November)". And then she would say "October or November is silly, it is like putting my feeligns on a time table". And I am like "what? you PROMISED it only A WEEK ago, why all of a sudden you say it is silly?" Now, typically when people postpone, they do so when time gets closer. So why would someone postpone November in AUGUST, especially since original promise was also made IN AUGUST? So its not like time got closer and she got more scared; its like she is simply playing games. This is so much NOT like her, NOT AT ALL like her if you take ANY time withing TWO YEARS Of our relationship; she only started acting that way after the breakup.

And then after that "surprise" she would be like "I don't want to argue about it" and get REALLY mad when I push it. She would then accuse me of starting up a fight. But the thing is that SHE brought something up first which triggered me to ask the question. The way I know it is that I specifically promised to myself not to bring up an issue until the said date, because we both decided that her decision on a said date is based on my ability to have "positive conversations" until then, and one of the criteria of "positive conversations" is my not brining up that issue. So I KNEW I was not bringing up -- I made it a point not to. What I did was a response to HER bringing up surprise after surprize to which I felt that I had to respond in order to at least clarify where I stand.

The other thing she told me was that she was in a very good mood because of her new job and a lot of new friends, but whenever she calls me I would ruin her mood and then she wouldn't be able to sleep and tomorrow the next day have head ache and back ache (which she had very often when I was in USA, but which was completely gone once I left to India since I was no longer stressing her out). Well, the interesting thing is that I was in a good mood TOO since I had one of my great revelations physics wise; so as upset as I was about relationship ending my overall mood was GOOD. So how come two people, both of which are in a GOOD mood, all of a sudden have bad mood after talking to each other for 10 minutes?

I was definitely not planning to start a fight; I was in a good mood, having done good job in physics, wanted to call her and have one of these "pleasant conversations" for may be half an hour and then continue to do whatever HAPPY stuff I was doing. Then all of a sudden a SURPRIZE is shoved into my face, which was so weird that I thought she just misspoke so I just wanted a clarification on what she said, then it turns out surprise was real and she EXPECTED me to know it before i ever called because it would have been silly if it was anything else, even if "something else" was a PROMISE she just made. Then we have a fight, and then she claims *I* was the one who ruined *HER* mood.

If I didn't know that she couldn't sleep after such conversations or had a headache and back ache next day, I would SWEAR she enjoyed every bit of it and found it funny to see me disappointed! I have no idea why she even gotten mad, since, apparently, she was finding upseting me to be quite intertaining.

She then was pointing out to me "see you can't even have a posititve conersation for one day, and you claimed it was one of the 'easiest' things something you can easilly change". My response is that I WOULD be able to change it if you were to only help me a LITTLE bit by giving me a chance. She then would tell me that she does give me a chance but it is not "good enough". She also tells me that if she did do to me something that is "good enough" I would then take things for granted and not put any effort like I did these past two years. I tell her taht I now realized something that I didn't realize before. But she tells me that I have to show it on actions first. But how can I possibly show it on actions when I am on this kind of status? So this makes it a visious cycle.



She told me exactly what she is doing dating wise. Basically, she didn't see anyone for two months after our breakup. Then she finally accepted an invitation for a date from someone. But then few hours later she had panic attacks because the idea of dating brought up associations with dating me, so she had to cancel that date, and then she asked me not to email her for 3-4 days since that is the time it would take to get over this attack (quite weird since it is a very short period of time, but I don't care about 3-4 days so I did what she said).

Then, a month later she told me that she probably won't be able to have any long term relationships in foreseable future because she was so certain that things between her and me would work out that, after they didn't, she no longer is able to trust ANYONE. However, she said that she wants to be having a lot of "friends with benefits" in order to get over me. She mentioned upcomming two dates she was going to have, both of which occur in the same week. I don't know about other weeks, but I get a sense that it is possible she continues to have dates at that frequency.

In her own words, she says "she is so tired of a relationship, and she wants to be selfish for a while". Now this kind of sarcasm is totally NOT like her. It kind of reminds me of one of the girls I talked to for may be few days long before I ever met Jennifer -- and I definitely found that girl too shallow. Well, this is just not Jennifer, why would she even use this kind of sarcasm?

Then, in that conversation, the other reason she brought is that she suspects she has Cushings (a cancer in the brain if I understand it correctly) which might be responsible for her weight gain, and if she actually has it she might die either from that cancer or from them trying to operate it, so she wants to "have fun while she still can". Well as far as Cushings, that is something she brought up a year ago, and she never tested it despite having planned to, so it is nothing new. From what I understand, her only evidence of cushings is her weight gain (which is known to be a symptom) as well as the fact that one of her relatives on the father's side had it.

On the other hand, there is even more evidence for polycistic ovaries. First of all, her sister was diagnosed with them. Even though that was a question mark diagnosis, her sister can't have kids despite repeated attempts to. Secondly, her MOTHER (not father) has a serious problem with weight, and women on her MOTHERS side struggle with infertility, while cushings is on her FATHER's side. And finally, that bleeding (which is what caused her to be sick in that spring) can be viewed as a consequence of polycistic ovaries. So in light of all that, there is no reason to think she actually has Cushings other than pure speculation. And besides, she became overweight when she was 12, so if it is due to Cushings she must have had it since 12, in which case it means that it is benigh kind of cancer.

Now from my perspective even if she does has Cushings and it is true she will die in few years, wouldn't she be even happier dying with a person she loves? She claims she has to "sleep around and have fun" while she still can. To me it sounds like an excuse. She knew about possibility of Cushing a year ago and she didn't break up with me back then. Now I know that Jennifer is not the one to make excuses, one way she striked me at the beginnign of relationship is her brutal honesty. So that is another reason I believe that she just became a completely different person, since the kind of excuses she is making reminds me of girls that are OPPOSITE to her!

Now, going back to her honest reasons. The HONEST picture is that she doesn't want to be either with me or any other committed relationship because "she was so sure me and I would work and we didn't; so now she can't trust anyone, whether me or someone else" Well, if she was so sure me and I would have worked, why not give me another chance? But she tells me she is "done with it and moves on".



She told me about her health issues. What she said is that while I was in Michigan she had some residual things left, which is why she was often hurting and asking me to massage her back and legs. But ever since I left to India she was never having back aches or leg aches again. So she claims that her recovery was that slow because I was stressing her out. Now, when I do call her, the next day she again wakes up with back ache and leg ache; but as long as I don't call her she is in a great shape.

To me it seems the opposite to what you said. She became healthy, she also found a great job in her area of biology. So she is so happy and excited with her life that she wants to leave me in a dust bin since I am one of her "problems". She even said it to me stuff to that effect. She basically told me that all of the numerous health, academic, or even her family issues that she used to have are finally solves; I am her only problem, the only thing that screws up her mood, so she doesn't want to talk to me unless I change my attitude. To me it really hurts. It feels like she is celebrating the fact that she broke up with me. Now logically I know this is not the case since her happiness in other areas is independent on whether or not we are together or not; but it really FEELS that way.



How do you know that they are telling you the truth that they actually went to the moon? How do you know anything you read in your newspaper or history book is the truth?

I mean, I have no reasons to believe that she doesn't tell the truth. At the same time, her breaking up with me because of MY behavior is perfectly consistent with the way relationship deteriorated in the past (and I was in USA while it deteriorated so I knew what I saw was the truth)



1) Please read my response to Stinkypuppy where I talked about three different Jennifer's inside of her (suffering Jennifer, angry Jennifer and happy Jennifer). I believe the suffereing Jennifer still misses me and still hurting. I want to perswade the happy Jennifer and angry Jennifer to let me in so I can comfort the suffering Jennifer. If I find someone else, no matter how happy I will be with them, I would still feel bad for sufferning Jennifer who is dying and there is no one to help her. I mean, both happy and angry Jennifer wnat to kill the suffering one, because they want to "move on". So I am the only one to save her.

2) Since I am in India for 2-3 years to do a post doc, it seems like I am the only westerner around; but I am only interested in dating girls of European descent. I guess I can always go on dating site and ask someone to do long distance with me, until I come back to USA in 2-3 years, but I don't think anyone would agree to that if they never met me. I was thinking of contacting girls whom I did speak before while in USA. But the only ones who have givem me email adress are the ones who rejected me (after all if they didn't, I would have dated them, before I ever found Jennifer). There were girls who were interested in me whom I passed by (one in a grocery store, one in a restaurant and one in Jimmy Jones) but I never bothered asking for their names and getting hteir email adress, nor do I remember how they look like, so I don't know how I would find them. Plus its been few years.




Actually that was how I perceived Anne, NOT Jennifer; Jennifer was her replacement.

I met Anne in Spring 2005 (two and a half years before I met Jennifer) in a math class. She had bipolar. She once asked me whether having Asperger gives me the kind of inside that others don't have. I asked her what does she mean, she told me that her office mates all play video games and are shallow and they wouldn't want to go "down to things that really matter". I could relate to that so well! She also said she only had two close friends whom she could trust: one in Cincinatti which is where she was from, and the other one was me, even though we only knew each other for a week.

I also had other reasons to like Anne on top of that:

a) She was a graduate student

b) She was in math, and I was in physics

c) We were both interested in studying about mental disorders

d) She dropped out of University of Chicago due to her depression and thats why she went to Michigan instead. Well, University of Chicago was the school of my dreams I could never get into

e) She is German by blood and I felt like that dating her would help me to "undo" my Jewishness

Now, Anne ended up rejecting me because she felt that since my mom sheltered me and Sarah (my first ex) did the same, I might need sheltering and thats not hte kind of relationship she wnated. Well she was right that both my mom and Sarah sheltered me. But she was wrong in that I needed it. THe truth is that I HATED it. My mom's sheltering is the main reason I HATE when she calls (well I talk to my mom quite often but that is because SHE pesters me if I don't pick up a phone, I still prefer not to talk to her AT ALL); and with Sarah her sheltering was the main reason I ended contact with her after I transfered schools, so then three months later Sarah broke up with me because I wouldn't return her calls. Now I only told Anne that Sarah broke up with me, and I evaded answering her questions as to why. That was a mistake. I had false perception that Anne had a problem with my doing something "bad" to Sarah. She didn't! She viewed me as a nice guy. Her problem was my need for sheltering. So I should have just told her at least some version of the truth such as "me and Sarah broke up because I didn't like her sheltering attitude"; that would have made it clear that I don't need to be sheltered. Anyway, I guess I felt really bad that I didn't make that clear, so I couldn't get over Anne.

After Anne, and before Jennifer, there were two girls: Erin and Anita. Neither of them could get me over Anne, since neither were graduate students.

Anyway, Jennifer was a replacement of Anne. In particular, Jennifer matched Anne when it comes to parts a and e: Jennifer is also graduate student and she is also German. Now true, Anne was in math and Jennifer in biology. But Anne was doing applied math, and often her applications were medicine. Likewise, Jennifer's applications of biology is also medicine. So this makes htem somewhat similar in part b as well.

So what is her hair color and length? Can you summarize it?



I am sorry you had been through the same thing. How long was the breakup? And I am glad I am able to spontaneously help you.

I am not sure what he was referring to by "natural delivery" though.



Can you spell it out? If X is passive agressive and Y is not, are you saying X knows Y loves them, or Y knows X loves them?



Again, can you spell it out what you mean by that? Are you saying if X is passive agressive, then X writes Y off as their ideosyncrasy, or the other way around? And what do you mean by that? Are you saying I treated Jennifer as my own idiosyncrasy, or Jennifer treated me as hers? Or I viewed Jennifer as her own ideosyncrasy?



Are you saying she is killing the suffering Jennifer, in order to help happy one to grow? That is exactly what would hurt me the most, if true. I feel really bad for suffering Jennifer, I don't want her killed. I want her to be happy, with or without me.



Three things:

a) It is true that I haven't internalized that I am an adult. The time accelerated as years went by, so I feel that the time between I was 17 and 29 is may be just as long as time between I was 12 and 14. I even feel it is a kind of a NIGHTMARE that I have to face and be 30 in two months, because I FEEL like a teen. On a side note being 30 is shocking career-wise because I only got Ph.d. May 2009 when I was 29, while usually ppl get ph.d. at 27. In the past I used to be AHEAD of program not behind (I learned calculus at 13; I took 3 years in high school, and within these three years did 2 years of college physics and 3 years of college math; then in college I again took 3 years rather than 4 and had 8 graduate level courses within the space of these three years) I know it seems off topic but I think it is related. BECAUSE TIME HAS ACCELERATED thats why I WASTED so much time academically WITHOUT NOTICING IT. And that is ALSO why I feel like I still should be a teenager.

b) The way my mom treats me has NOTHING to do with my behavior. For example, back when I was undergrad she thought it was not a good idea for me to take a lab course because I was not good with working with my hadns back when I was 5 years old. She is child development specialist, and she judges me by what I used to be as a child, which I can't help. Also she probably believes in genetics and thinks whatever applies to her applies to me as well (although her genetic belief is weird, somehow she doesn't think I inheritted anything form my dad; only form her). So when she was little she was really attached to her parents and she was afraid to be left alone in the room (in fact she was counting hours until her parents would come back from work), and so she assumes I am that way too, which is why she gives me attention which I don't need.

c) You are right in saying that it is my fault that I told each person what they wanted to hear. Jennifer told me that she wouldn't have been nearly as pushy trying to get me to choose her plans over my mom's if I were to tell her that *I* want to go to Ukraine as opposed to my mom wants me to. She even told me that she suspects my mom would have agreed with North Carolina more easilly if I were to tell her that *I* want to go to North Carolina rather than Jennifer wants me to. I guess it doesn't make logical sense. Because if I do something because someone else wants me to, isn't it also a way of wanting to do it? I mean if I want to go to the store, its not like I want to *go to the store* because store is beautiful; rather I want to go there in order to get food. So why can't I say that I want to go to Ukraine because I want my mom's approval, or I want to go to North Carolina because I want Jennifer's? Also to me either my mom's or Jennifer's approval matters MUCH MORE than anything else I would ever want (the only exception is physics), so it is very silly of Jennifer to say she would respect my "wants" that don't even matter to me that much, while she doesn't want to respect my feeling pressured to do what my mom wants me to do, no matter how much stress that pressure might cause me.

Actually when I deflect it is like a VERY LONG parentheses, that at some point DO close, where I get back to the response to the original question. Typically, I make sure to come back to the original question in the last paragraph (although at times I deflect again, so it might be a paragraph before last paragraph or something like that)

As far as "justifying" that is different. It is when Jennifer is mad at what I did and then I go on talking about reasons why I did that. So in that case I probably don't defect as much. But this obviously can't happen in this forum, no one was mad at me here.



I agree with you on both counts. I do want human connection -- if I didn't, I won't have been looking for a relationship on the first place. May be me and Jennifer have different ways of connecting, or different love language? May be for Jennifer the connection means time invested in a given person as opposed to physics; to me, on the other hand, connection means being on the same team.

So like when I was preparing disseration and Jennifer brought me food in the middle of the night, that helped me establish connection to her (in fact, being Jan 2009, it was during the "bad" time in our relationship but it was one of the rare times I feel close to her). I didn't put any time on her; I was doing physics. But I felt connected becuase I felt we were "on the same team". And it wasn't using her either. If someone else were to bring me food I wouldn't care. But when Jennifer did it I felt connected. On the other hand, all the HOURS we spent together watching TV that I didn't care about didn't help connection at all; if anything it ruined it as far as I am concerned.

Actually at least once Jennifer said something that indicated that she had the same criteria for connection. In particular when we had a fight about speding so much time away from physics she said "may be I want to spend so many hours with you because I am desperately trying to squeeze out may be half an hour that is actually good". Now, that is not what she usually said; usually she said that everyone should spend that much time. But because of that one outburst that she had, I suspect that perhaps it was an issue all along and she wasn't conscious of that? And if so, this only adds to the list of why we should try again since now I have a possible solution of yet another problem: all I have to do is make sure we don't fight (by refraining from a need to justify) and then proportion-wise more time we spend together would be "quality time" and then she would be more willing to spend less overall time and let me do physics.



She once told me that during her childhood both of her parents weren't giving either her or her sister any attention and were mean to them. Her mom had a fixation on end times and she had a house up on the hills to hide from end times. Well, according to Jennifer, her mom would use that as a tactic of stopping her from doing what she didn't want her to do. For example, she didn't want her to attend high school prom, so on the day of the prom she said that the end was comming and she had to go up the hills. It later turned out that her mom had sleep opnea, and these kinds of preocuppations might be side effects of that. More recently her mom, and her entire family (including Jennifer) were diagnosed with celiac. According to Jennifer that doctor is questionable, and she said that she would trust a lot more European doctors when it comes to celiac than American ones. The reason Jennifer doesn't trust that doctor is that he basically diagnoses everyone as positive. Anyway, according to Jennifer's her mom's current preoccupation is the diet, and it replaced the preoccupation with end times.

As far as her dad is concerned, her dad was basically watching TV all day long, and was ignoring the need of either her mom or the kids. Both Jennifer and her mom believes that he has Asperger's and watching TV is one of his "obsessions". But I don't agree with that at all. To me watching TV is about being lazy, not having Asperger. If I picture lazy man, he would be watching TV. Since her dad was never diagnosed with Asperger, I believe viewing his behavior as AS would put all aspies in a very bad light. Well, Jennifer believes that I remind her of her dad: her dad's obsession is TV, and my obsession is physics. Well, it is very silly to put CAREER on the same level as TV. But Jennifer won't get htis point: she tells me that it is only silly because TV is not one of my obsessions.

Alright, I will demonstrate that I can be honest with myself. I am very fascinated with Christianity. I can spend online researching it for HOURS. Now, if I were to refuse to spend time with Jennifer because of religion, THAT would be the same thing as her dad watching TV. So you see how honest I am: even though religion is my obsession and TV isn't, I am willing to say that the two are on the same level. On the other hand, career is NOT on the same level, because I get OFFICIAL RECOGNITION of my publications, which has nothing to do with my fascination with topic. When I brought that up to Jennifer in my defence, she told me that "being famous" is a very selfish motive. So its like I can never win. If I tell her I like physics, then it is like her dad watching TV; on the other hand if I say I want to be famous then I am selfish. So what WOULD she take seriously? Besides, shouldn't it be OBVIOUS that career is more important than TV especially since Jennifer, herself, was a graduate student?

Anyway, I know I deviated from the question again. Let me answer your question as to what is Jennifer's relationship needs are. I believe she is trying to get the kind of love she could never get at home, because both parents were neglecting her. That is probalby why she needs so much attention. In fact, before I ever started dating her, when she was trying to explain why she takes it very slowly when it comes to starting a relationship, she mentioned that when she was 12 she was suicidal because of her family's neglect, and she doesn't want similar thing to happen with others, which is why it takes a long time to trust someone. She even claims that her career choice, which involves working in cancer research, has to do with her self esteem issues because it gives her purpose in life.