Discussing important relationship issues with AS guy

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Hi all,

I'd like to ask your advice on something.

My partner (mostly mild AS guy, early 30's) and I (NT woman, was Borderline personality disorder until I grew up - 40) mostly have a happy relationship. Our bills have gotten on top of us lately and my partner hates his job and is subsequently very stressed. Coupled with that, I run my own small business which has been very quiet recently.

We have a number of important relationship issues to discuss. We have been together for 2 1/2 years and are not married (waiting, waiting..) but had previously agreed that we would start trying to have a child. As I am 40 years old and unlikely to be very fertile after 2 or 3 years down the track it's important that if we want children we do something proactive towards it now, or it may not be possible. My partner says he is unsure about having children. I should also express that before I met this particular guy I was not at all interested in having children - I just want *his*. So if I can't have his, I don't want anyone's.

My partner is not very affectionate and has a low libido. He does not feel that we need to have sex as a physical expression of love, and prefers me to initiate things in that regard. I have a much higher sex drive than him and would prefer to have sex 3 plus times a week rather than the once a fortnight that we do. Sometimes when I express the desire to have sex he puts it off and by the time we end up doing it I am so tired that it's not as much fun as it would be if i weren't. Because I have to make most of the decisions in the household (ie where we go out, what we eat etc) I get a little tired of making what I feel is most of the effort in the relationship and don't initiate it that often. I also feel a little bit desperate when I ask for it because part of me feels that if he really finds me attractive he would initiate it himself.

When I try to discuss the issues about the bills, the sex, the procreation, with my partner calmly, most of the time he changes the subject or walks out of the room to do what I feel is try to distract me away from the topic. Recently I have followed him and continued to talk about the same thing because i don't feel like anything ever gets resolved, and I just have to go on feeling the same way about things - frustrated, confused and alone in this. I understand that this is technically nagging but I don't feel like the issues are going to get discussed unless I push for it to happen.

This nagging generally results in an anger meltdown where he violently yells at me and puts his finger in my chest. He has no qualms about the neighbors hearing our personal business and frequently yells at me in the middle of the street. This causes me great humiliation because the next day when he goes off to work (out the back door, into the car and down the driveway) he has no contact with the neighbors. Instead I am left at home to cope with the speculative and judgemental looks from them. He has been known to throw things and damage inanimate objects. He doesn't physically abuse me but my last relationship was physically abusive and when he does that I feel very afraid for my personal safety and generally have to leave the house and cry.

I understand that I have problems and I devote myself to working on my negative traits and personality issues so that they don't impact on my partner or our relationship.

We love each other very much and both of us hate arguing but it seems to be the only way I can prompt him into expressing how he feels, even if it is extremely negative.

I would like to know what I can do to:

a) Get resolution on these personal/relationship issues;
b) Approach important issues and get him to communicate with me without getting angry;
c) Help him handle his anger in a more productive way.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

ntchick.

Sounds like you two are on different pages. You want his children, he doesn't want children. You have a high sex drive, he has no sex drive. May I ask why you two are living in a house together in the first place?

Hi, therange.

Thank you for your constructive reply.

Did you read the whole post? Do you know the history of the relationship?

We love each other, we have many things in common, we enjoy much of our time together. We make each other laugh. We like a lot of similar things, but we also have our own interests. When I approach my partner with the idea of having children he does actually say "I'm not sure" and *mean* it. If I assume that "I'm not sure" means that he doesn't want to (which seems pretty normal to me) he says "I didn't say i don't want to, i'm just not sure". He rejects that being unsure about something implies a negative outcome. He constantly reminds me that when he says he doesn't know when I ask him a question, it's definetely NOT a "No" answer, it's just not a "Yes" answer either. To understand where he comes from, he has great difficulty making decisions and procrastinates a great deal.

Does that give you a more clear picture of what's going on here?

I guess I'm just more of a black and white guy. I hear of a lot of relationships like this, and I'd rather be completely on the same page or be single. I won't interject too much and make this about myself, but as an example, I never want kids and have an above average sex drive. If my girlfriend wanted kids and didn't love sex, and wanted kids in the near future, not distant future, I wouldn't bother wasting my time.

But it sounds like you want to make this relationship work. Just realize, from the sounds of him, he can't help himself. He sounds textbook Aspie (not that that's a bad thing) but like you said, he's having enough trouble getting through day to day life, let alone making life altering decisions. There is no cure for Autism, contrary to what Jenny McCarthy thinks.

I don't care who he is or what his issues are, this is not acceptable behavior. If you are both interested in continuing, this needs to be addressed immediately, especially if you want to bring a child into the relationship. Relationship counselling will help.

Okay, I'm going to put your partner's Aspie-ness aside for a moment, so I can put my full attention on urging you to avoid the biggest mistake of your life: you want to bring a child into this mess? Woman, have you lost your mind? I am aghast that you would even be considering it. I don't care if your biological clock is ticking so loud that others can hear it - that's no reason to bring a child into a violent, unstable, abusive, chaotic environment. You're feeding the pretense that a child will make you and this goof a family, and it won't. It will make you a single mother, and him an absentee, violent, abusive load of a father. Thank your lucky stars you're not having sex more often, or you might have actually gotten pregnant.

Your issues with your mate are not about his Asperger's. It's about the fact that he appears to have zero coping skills, and zero interest in acquiring any. The appropriate response to discussions aimed at making major life decisions with your partner is not to leave the room; it's not to react violently; it's not to become verbally abusive. If you want to try to save your relationship, I strongly recommend involving a professional counselor to help you two learn to communicate - if he'll acquiesce to attend. If he refuses to attend, I suggest you start looking for a new place to live, and a new person to share it with. And please, please, please - stop trying to get pregnant - contrary to popular belief, it is not your right as a woman to foist this environment on an innocent child.

Hi Hope, thanks for your reply.

At the moment we don't have the money to pay the bills, let alone $90 a week to see a counsellor.

We did, about a year ago, go and see a counsellor who we paid $90 to discover that she wasn't too bright and didn't tell us anything we didn't already know or could not have learned from reading. We need a counsellor who is highly intelligent, as we both are. She clearly didn't "get" us as we "get" each other. We thought she was an idiot.

I agree that perhaps a child is not the right thing to do at the moment.

I have stated that my partner is NOT physically abusive but has anger management issues.
He is not adverse to the idea of counselling but I think he avoids communicating because he doesn't feel like he has anything valid to add, and doesn't know what to say or how to express his emotions.

I would like to know a little more about what you meant when you said "zero coping skills". Coping with what, exactly? Can you offer any constructive links? I understand how you could percieve that he has "zero interest in acquiring any", but he has very little interest in anything at all.

Emotional abuse is still abuse and can be just as crippling and terrifying as physical abuse. The insidious thing about it is that the victims can so easily explain it away: "He's just in a bad mood today; he's not usually like this." "Oh, she's PMS-ing." "He has anger issues." "It's really all my fault. I should be more understanding/ more flexible/ a better person." While the victim is busy making excuses, though, the abuser is slowly destroying their soul and eroding their self-confidence.

Okay, so one therapist didn't work out. Find another. If you can't afford a therapist, find a member of clergy, even if you aren't religious. They have a lot of experience dealing with people and interpersonal issues. But do not sit still in this situation and allow this grown man to carry on like a spoiled ten-year-old and batter you emotionally.

Set your emotions to one side and look at your situation objectively. Then ask yourself: if you had a daughter, is this the kind of life you would want her to live?

I'm not normally annoyed by the things I read on here but in this case I think you've been told a lot of s**t.

AS can make people very afraid of rejection. I think he loves you so much that he is trying too hard and putting himself under way too much pressure, because he knows things are going wrong and he wants you to be happy. He's exhausted from running himself into the ground trying to be 'normal' and keep everything ok.

Male sex drive is intrinsically linked with confidence. No confidence = negligable sex life. Nagging him about it is the worst thing you can do, because then he will feel that he has failed you and his confidence will decrease further.

He sounds to me like someone who has been trying too hard for too long and is at the end of his tether.

I think some reverse psychology is in order. If you want him to be closer to you, tell him he is free. "If you need some time alone, that's fine. I will still be here when you come back, and I still love you".

If he is not OBLIGED to be with you, I reckon he will choose to spend more time with you.

It is the pressure that is the problem.

For every one thing you say, his guilt will magnify it tenfold. He knows he isn't easy to live with, and that he upsets you sometimes, and he is scared that you will leave. Scared = defensive = irrational and aggressive, sometimes.

I agree with this post. Do not even consider having a child now, with this man. He may not be hitting you, but this is abuse.

My husband and I separated almost 3 years ago, when our son was 5 years old, because my husband's behaviour was very like the behaviour you describe here. If you were to get pregnant, I pretty much guarantee that things will get a lot, lot worse. By the time I decided I had no option but to leave the relationship, I was in physical pain as a result of living long-term in a very stressful situation. My husband would leave the house rather than discuss anything, would react with extreme anger to anything he perceived as criticism, couldn't cope with having a young child in the house, and didn't accept responsiblity for anything, basically.

If you want this relationship to last, and be anything like happy, you should set aside any ideas of having a child and get counselling as soon as you can. If you can't afford it, try churches or charities which may offer counselling free or for a minimal donation.

Sorry, if this seems harsh.

Actually, based on my own experience, I really think you should run now and not look back.

Information I'd recommend (get these books at your library - free of charge):

"The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage" by Dr. Laura Schlessinger

"Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie

"The Family" by John Bradshaw

"Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them" by Robin Norwood

"The Power of Intention" by Wayne Dyer

As far as your bf's lack of coping skills, I'm referring to his inability to cope with the typical stresses of a relationship in a healthy way. For example, expressing his emotions, engaging in substantive conversation about major life decisions (like having a child), disagreeing without anger, screaming, leaving, etc. These are skills that may not come naturally to an Aspie - but they can be learned and/or greatly improved upon. Of course, the Aspie involved would have to be motivated to do that. I'm not suggesting that he can pretend to behave like an NT, however, there's a huge difference between that and learning how to have a mature, adult conversation, negotiation, disagreement with your partner - something he seems incapable of.

As @pschristmas stated, you absolutely cannot judge all therapists by one bad one, however, I don't know what you expected to solve in one session. There isn't a quick fix to the issues you two have (and yes, I'm basing that partially on your track record of being in physically abusive relationships). Obviously, if you don't have money for counseling, you don't have money for a baby - they are way more expensive. As far as your bf not being physically abusive - you said he puts his finger in your chest during these screaming arguments. Does he mean that lovingly? I'm sorry, but if he's touching you that way in anger, I wonder how long it will be before that finger turns into a jab, and then a shove?

Listen to @Marcia, as well - she's been there, and she knows. I wouldn't listen to @sociable_hermit on this one, however - sorry, @sociable, I think you got this one dead wrong. @sociable is interpreting all of your bf's behavior in the absolute best and most benign light possible - and incorrectly, I fear. Your bf doesn't sound like someone who's been trying too hard at all. He sounds like an errant child to me (and you've let him behave that way, by taking on all the "adult" responsibilities involved with the relationship and the home)...except that he's a grown man. It's about time he accepted the responsibility of being an adult - and that means acting like a man instead of a boy.

Drawing from my life's experiences I have to agree with a lot of what Sociable_Hermit has stated. That's not to say I completely disagree with the other commenters. I don't.


Please understand I am not trying to be harsh either, just honest.


I also believe he is under too much pressure and you need to back off and give him space. If you really love him and are committed to making this relationship work, drop the having a child idea (for now anyway). This is obviously not the right time. Forcing him into the role of being a father when he's not ready is not in anyone's best interest especially the baby's. Try to find ways to relieve the stress in your lives. Get your priorities in order and seek counseling for the both of you as soon as possible. If that means giving up something else so you have the money go, do it. I'm not sure what books are available that specifically address the issues you two are dealing with. But you might try googling for books about AS/NT relationships to see what's out there that might help. I wish you both the best.

Taupey

Thanks, everyone, for your opinions.

Pretty much, the way I look at things usually in order to form a valid opinion, is to assess each point of view, one at a time, and review which aspects of each opinion best fit my situation.

To start with, these arguments only happen every few months or so. Then there's usually a gap and everything is fine. This time, however, it's happened twice in two weekends. Because my partner has been working overtime to try and make extra money that I'm not generating from my business, he's only had Sundays off for the past 3 weeks. Usually he has Saturdays off as well, but I work so he gets his alone time. My Saturday job has been off for 3 months because it's been college vacation. This means that the only time he gets at home is with me, and the majority of time I get at home is without him. I am not excusing his behaviour in any way. If I thought it was acceptable for him to treat me that way I would not be writing this message. I know he needs help and, if you all refer to the first post, you will note that I have asked for advice about how to help him person reach a position where he feels comfortable discussing emotional issues.

I have been researching online today, since your replies, about low-cost counselling facilities in our area. Unfortunately in Australia you can only get free things if you are on Centrelink benefits and have a low income earner's card. My partner earns quite a decent wage but usually it all goes on bills and debts and rent, and still we have no money. Some weeks we are lucky to eat, but for the purposes of being able to access most charity services free of charge we are ineligeble because we apparently have too much money. Unfortunately neither of us are interested in hearing God's word (he's an athiest, I'm a witch) so churches are out for us.

I found a free relationship counsellor at our local community health centre, but there will be a wait, so I am waiting for them to call me next week.

@HopeGrows:
Thanks for the book list. I will go and look those up.
With regard to lack of coping skills - neither of us are particularly well equipped to deal with relationship issues, so I think your suggestion of counselling is a good one. Neither of us have very much experience at all with successful longer-term relationships and both are kind of floundering around trying to work it all out. I do not ever expect him to behave like an NT, which is part of what I love about him.

The therapist:
We knew we would need to have more than one session, but we didn't want it to be with a moron who knew less about psychology than I do.

@sociable hermit:
Thanks for the "here's how he might be feeling" heads-up. I think you are pretty much spot on, although each person is going to percieve things in their own way so there may be some things here and there that aren't correct. I know he's exhausted and hates his job, and I know the stuff about the sex for guys. I appreciate what you've said about the nagging as well, and I agree, but it's the only way I know of to get him to speak AT ALL about anything that actually matters. I'm sure there are other strategies for that as well, as I said earlier, we're both ill-equipped in the relationship tools department. By no means is this an excuse or reason for violent behaviour, and i need to make it clear, in no uncertain terms that this is not acceptable and that if it continues he will lose me.

@Marcia:
Ok, no kids then. I never wanted them before anyhow.

Thanks again, anyone I missed.

NTchick

I'm not going to judge your relationship; that isn't my place, and it is not my strength. What works for some people, others consider abusive, or sexist, or any of another series of perceptions because it differs than their own... the best I can say is that such a situation does not sound healthy or beneficial if it causes you that much stress and fear. All things aside, however - if you cannot pay the bills, then how in the frozen hells are you going to afford having a child!? Money will not suddenly appear; having a child with the intent of having it supported by welfare/government programs is abhorrent to me personally. And without the money for basic needs, foods, doctor's bills, medicines, clothes, etc... what sort of life would that child have?


M.

I'd never condone violent or abusive behaviour, but when people are desperate it can happen. The key thing is the motive. If he's deliberately, knowingly nasty then it's time to leave. If it's because he's melting down, and not really in control of things any more, then that's something which can be helped and treated. Making him feel worse than he already feels will only accelerate the decline.

I am amazed by the hypocrisy of some on here who seek to damn rather than help. I thought this was a community for helping people in those kind of situations?

It may be that he feels he cannot talk about having (or not having) children, because you will leave if he gives the 'wrong' answer. At the same time he probably feels really guilty for avoiding the issue and 'blowing up' at you when pressured. My own personal experience is that the "fight or flight" response can kick in at very inappropriate times when you have AS, and appearances do not automatically mirror what is going on in one's head. I think he's aggressive because he's scared, and the one person he should be talking to about it, is the one person he can't talk to. Possibly because he's mistakenly put some barriers up that he shouldn't have done, in trying to be Mr Right.

Whether he could actually cope with being a Dad is another matter - quite possibly not. Having said that very often the fear is with the unknown - if it actually happened, he might be ok. I appreciate, though, that "might be ok" isn't really good enough, and you do need to work this out, possibly with some help from a 3rd party.

Well I will comment on a couple of things, as they do frequently come up on these boards by NT women.

1. Initiating sex.
I think you really need to get out of your mind that him not initiating sex is not because he is not attracted to you. I have noticed ALOT on these boards that many aspie men have problems initiating intimacy. This is more of a problem for AS men, then ASD women, and this has alot to do with gender norms. I don't think this is something that is going to change any time soon. This is one of those gender norms that works against AS men. Just because he does not initiate sex does not mean he does not find you attractive, its more like he does not initiate sex. I think this is an issue you will have to move past.

2. Kids.
You went into the relationship not expecting/wanting kids. The reality of the situation and probably why he is so on edge is because of this issue. Kids often mean additional stimulation for somebody with an ASD, and some can handle it, some can not. You have to ask, blatently, and honestly, whether he wants kids. If he says no, it really means no. Don't try to change his mind and don't bring it up again, if there is one thing that folks with ASD are, is virtually intractible on lifes big issues.

3. Meltdowns
As far as the meltdowns. I have meltdowns that are epic, and honestly I can get extremely angry, and often blind to what I do. It is something I have been working on to reduce in my life, I will always have meltdowns, but the frequency and intensity of the meltdowns is what needs to decrease and has been decreasing. You need to address the issue in a more logical way, as supposed to emotional. Basically the meltdowns are bad because he is irrational and out of control, rather than the fact that they are embaressing.

A big reason why you feel so guilty about the neighbors, is because he cares less about what the neighbors think in general, not because he is off to work. I have to say, ALOT of people (both male and female) with ASD don't care as much about this issues or social shunning as an adult compared to NT. This was a major issue for when I was growing up, my parents were always very embaressed about me because of "what the neighbors thought". To me, even to this day, I often call the issue suburban/rural tribalism. Most folks in urban areas don't care as much about thier neighbors personal life, and tend to be less tribal in nature. Personally this has always rubbed me a bad way, since I usually can care less about my neighbors opinions of me. Basically I tend to be more urban in attitude, I am pretty accepting of folks, as long as they stay out of my business. What I am suggesting is your partner probably has a similar attitude. This is probably at the core of why there is such a divide between ASD folks and many NT folks its a fundimental issue of how one appears to others. People with ASD want to be accepted for who they are, while NT folks concern themselves over "what the neighbors think". It leads to social conformity in many cases, and people with ASD are in no way conformist. I will say the "what the neighbors think" is a big problem with LGBT folks, folks with mental health issue like bipolar, etc. For folks in a social minority, "what the neighbors think" and social shunning is a big reason why people move to cities, where this social tribalism is less previlant and people stay out of each others business.

In terms of therapy, I agree its needed. And honestly if you cannot afford it, you should not even think about having a kid with this guy. If he cannot get a grip on his meltdowns, so be it.

I will say one of the things you need to do is avoid triggering the meltdowns. If he is trying to drop a subject, walk away from it, or avoid it, its for a reason. You are pushing him into a corner. When ASD folks feel they are pushed/trapped, they tend to melt down as a reaction. Those "sensative subjects" you need to address in a different way, and if he gives you a response, and you don't like it, you will have to live with it. There is alot of inflexibility to ASD, and if his mind might be made up on the subject, and if his mind is made up, its made up. If no kids was something that was agreed upon entering the relationship, do not be surprised if for him it is still no kids for example. If you were one who always initiated sex, don't be surprised if that is not going to change for him. @sociable_hermit is also right about the meltdowns, the fight or flight response. It is not something that is easily controlled, and alot of our issues come from poor development with regards to the emotional processing in these situations (basically our brain can get triggered for flight or fight at some very poor times to the wrong people).

This may mean being conflict adverse (basically if he avoids a subject/walks away from it, you drop it), intiating sex, and not having kids if you want to stick with him. That, and suggest therapy to deal with the frequent meltdowns (and I do suggest he does it as a solo thing). Alot of these issues though seem intractible, what you want may not be something he can offer, which is why alot of arguements in relationships happen, and escalate. The difference is he is the more unstable of the two of you, but there is some issues you need to work on as well (your approach is what is creating some of the problems).

@hopegrows and others. You are NT, you don't understand meltdowns. Many folks who are NT see it as being an errant child and/or abusive, I am completely sympathetic to the meltdowns because I have to live with them. The truth is some of the blame in this situation does lie with the OP. She needs straightfoward and honest answers in a way that does not trigger conflict, and conversely she needs to be straightfoward with regards to her questions, but she also needs to learn that once those questions are answered, they are answered and should not be brought up again for discussion, as they are answered and not up for discussion anymore, anything else is pestering. I see this from both sides because I have to deal with these meltdowns, but my boyfriend has had to put up with my infrequent meltdowns, it is part of living with somebody with an ASD. The difference is my boyfriend understands them, and knows how to deal with them correctly, and knows how to prevent them and does everything to minimize them. Part of the problem here is she has behaviors that are perpetuating the meltdowns, pestering him when he is walking away or trying to get back to subjects he drops, that is usually a sign an emotional trigger has been hit and he needs time to process. You follow somebody with an ASD when they walk away from a conversation, probably because you triggered them in the first place and probably because they are trying to avoid a meltdown and need some time alone to process it, you are partly to blame for it. Part of what is going on here is poor recognition on her part, but also making him feel trapped/cornered, and triggering a fight or flight response.

I am going to say he needs help, and his refusal to change is bad. But at the same time she is perpetuating the situation through her approach.


With regards to these issues here on three questions.
1. Do you want to have kids. Yes or No. If its no, thats it, do not try to convince him otherwise. If its yes or maybe then discuss. If its no, drop the subject.
2. Can you intiate intimacy? Yes or No. If its no, thats it, do not try to convince him otherwise. If its yes or yes but, try to discuss the frequency, etc. This may be something that needs to be planned (and stuck too).
3. Can we have sex more often? Yes or No.
4. Can you see a therapist? Yes or no.
These are clear straightfoward questions.

I do not recommend couples therapy at first. I recommend that he gets individual counseling. The meltdowns are a problem, but some of the blame lies in you for triggering them (and doing it in a repeated fashion). Truth be told, you need to ask him what is triggering the meltdowns and avoid doing those things and bringing up those subjects best you can.

But I seriously do not recommend having kids until everything is worked out, both personally and financially between you two. Right now, it sounds like a horrid situation, with both of you making tons of mistakes, and I am not going to jump out and say he is entirely to blame, especially on the meltdown issue. From what it sounds like, you may very well be perpetuating them. When you should be working together to minimize them.

Last edited by starygrrl on 02 Mar 2010, 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.