Gaining Objective Perspective

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There has been much discussion in recent threads on the subject of Limerence... I believe SinsBoldly posted this link a few times before, and I will share it again (for it is a worthwhile read!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

The one point I want to focus on from the article is this... "1. A person experiencing limerence has a general intensity of feeling that leaves other concerns in the background. In their thoughts, a limerent person 2. tends to emphasize what is admirable in the limerent object and to avoid any negative or problematic attributes."

I am quite guilty of this while in this state of adoration for another. It does not occur often, as I find most people to be rather distasteful. And perhaps, for that reason, when someone comes into my life who I become taken with, they seem that much more amazing than perhaps they really are...

Another section I would like to quote here is "Feelings of limerence can be intensified through adversity, obstacles, or distance. A limerent person may have acute sensitivity to any act, thought, or condition that can be interpreted favorably. This may include a tendency to devise, fabricate, or invent "reasonable" explanations for why neutral actions are a sign of hidden passion in the limerent object."

Again, something I am guilty of. In fact, the more distance a person puts between them and myself, the more I desire to bridge that gap. Not by forcing it, but by "hopefully wishing and daydreaming" that when they finally realize how much I care for them, they will want to be closer to me, and we will have gone through a trying tribulation together, and be that much stronger for it. *Shaking head at self.* Instead of just realizing it for what it is, as stated in the movie "He's Just Not that Into You" (one that I actually enjoyed quite a bit), "If a guy is interested in you, he will call you."

Yet whenever I am in a position where I am being put at distance, rejected, or strung along by an object of my limerence, I continue to focus on all of their wonderful attributes. All of the things I like about them. How there is nothing about them I don't like. Instead of focusing on how inconsiderate they are, recognizing how I feel for them, and the lack of appreciation of that fact, and the insensitivity they demonstrate by not just telling me straight-up, "I don't feel the same way. Let me go. We're done here."

It occurred to me today that one of the few ways to gain perspective in this scenario is by forcing one's self to procure a list of the individual's flaws. Now please, don't misunderstand me in thinking, "Oh, she's just jaded because the feelings are not reciprocated." I like to think of this exercise as a form of affirmation. When an individual is suffering from depression, their perceptions are distorted. They interpret everything negatively, and see things as being worse than they perhaps are. This is not dissimilar to being in a state of limerence where the perception is distorted to viewing another's attributes as only positive.

A link on a self-help guide for depression... http://www.randypaterson.com/SelfCareManual.pdf and taken from it, "1. When you are depressed, you are likely to think about your problems to the exclusion of anything else. In addition to 2. dwelling on the serious problems you face, you may also magnify small problems.

Comparing the underlined sections from the descriptions of symptoms both limerence and depression, you may see why I compare the two. Now, with depression, it is often advised to the person suffering from such focused, negative thought to challenge those thinking habits. For example, if a friend cancels a lunch date, one can easily surmise all sorts of negative explanations while in a depressed state of mind... "She doesn't like me," "No one likes me. I'm unlikable..." The aim is to see things more reasonably. A more realistic (and less negative) thought could instead be, "I don't know why she canceled lunch; there might be hundreds of possible reasons."

Applying this same technique of challenging one's current (unrealistic) way of thinking in terms of limerence could be to attempt to see the person in a clearer light... Recognizing their flaws, as well as their positive attributes (which one is already quite focused on) to gain perspective of both 1. That person as a potential partner, and 2. The reality of the situation, their motives and the lack of reciprocity.

I attempted to challenge my limerent thought process this way, and to my surprise, found many characteristics of the individual that I not only would have issue with in a potential partner, but even in a person in general. At first, with pen and paper in hand, I could only think of two little, sort-of flaws. After writing them down, more and more things came to mind. Serious things, of significant consequence. Even some characteristics that force me to lose a certain amount of respect for the individual. And I have to be honest... I don't view this person as being evil, or terrible, or unlikeable, and none of these negative realizations has negated any of the positive attributes upon which I was so focused before, but I feel as though I have managed to gain some much-needed perspective.

There has also been a large amount of discussion here on the concept of putting someone "on a pedestal." And I believe that while in a state of limerence with an individual, this is easily the outcome. As well, when someone has been placed in such high regard, one may easily cast their own needs aside, and focus more on the person in question. Challenge their motives less, with a blind, naive "trust" in the fact that the person has no ulterior motives. Willing to put up with so much crap, just with the glimmer of hope that some day, they might come around. Some day, they might feel the same. But when that God/Goddess has been humanized (seen clearly to possess both great qualities, as well as terrible flaws), the situation can be seen more clearly. The person feeling so strongly can say to themselves, "Wait! They're NOT perfect. They ARE taking advantage of me. They DON'T feel the same way about me." And hopefully, move on.

I know my original post was already quite lengthy, but a song just came to mind that is related. This is something that upon the first time hearing it, I had wished I had known about the artist long ago, with a past ex. Though it might not have helped, besides.

"No, I really don't think so
That you think I'd be incapable of being on my own
No, I really don't think so
That I would for a second let you back in through my door

I have spent many a nights
Even when you are by my side
I shed tears I couldn't dry
I shed tears I couldn't dry

But I should thank you for
Taking my blindfold off now
I ain't jaded no more, no more
And I take pride in being the one that said goodbye
That could only mean I am me, once more

You would turn your head the other way
So you won't have to listen to what I have to say
You assume that I needed you
But you didn't realize that I needed no one but myself
I needed no one but myself "

It's always helped me to try to focus on the what (action), as opposed to the why (motivation). We can always find a million different ways to rationalize behavior to support our own paradigms....it's a lot harder to do that if you ignore the actor's (supposed) motivation.

^^

I was so hoping you would chime in somewhere along the way!

In focusing on the "what (action)" as opposed to the "why (supposed motivations)," are you meaning that in this circumstance, paying closer attention to the person's actions (i.e. putting at a distance, ignoring the admirer's needs, etc) and the effect it has on one's self, and deciding thusly, "Regardless of why this person is doing _______ , it causes me to feel like ________ , and I am better than that." ?

Also, do you think it is more a matter of being jaded that could drive someone to assess another's flaws, or an honest attempt to gain perspective? (i.e. - would you consider it an approved method of action?)

Precisely. Put it in playground terms: the same kid walks up to you every day and socks you in the arm without provocation. There's probably some pretty good explanations for why that kid is a bully, why he's selected you as his target, how he could be "managed" out of his bullying behavior, but does it really matter to you? Probably not. He's socking you in the arm, it hurts, and your goal is to make it stop.

As someone who does fall into the "why" trap way more than I should, I think I'd be better off to focus on the "what" a little more exclusively. It makes it a lot easier to deal with someone who starts exhibiting behavior that's unacceptable. In the end, it really doesn't matter why the object of your affection calls you names, hits you, hurts you, etc. It matters that you stop enduring the behavior. It's kind of funny....when you're in the middle of an abusive situation, it's always so difficult to separate the abuse from how it makes you feel, what it does to your own self-esteem and character. There's always that unanswered question, "How could he/she do this to me?" But when you're out of it, and have some perspective, the answers are always clear: abusers abuse; liars lie; cheaters cheat, etc. They would have done the same to anyone who crossed their path.




Nope. I think it's a matter of sobriety. We all get drunk off of romantic love - it's like Spring Break for grown-ups. But everybody's gotta sober up and go home eventually.

Hyper objectivity is a very good way to see the world. Kind of ultra-existentialism that brings you back to point where you started out from. Can be harsh on other people though until they get to know you are not being unnecessarily cruel, just looking out for them in a different way. Becomes automatic , no rationalization, just isness of things.

Yes, this is definitely familiar to me. The logical side of me says that I should always remain objective. My human side says that people can't, or aren't supposed to be be defined by logic alone, and that emotions have purpose too. I feel like two people, if that makes any sense.

Its very important to separate fiction from reality when it comes to people. One of the areas where I can say that I've been lucky as a guy, as much as our drives bash us around, pull us off point, and as much of a natural/biological inclination we may have to practically see attractive women as 'angels' (well - at least those of us who didn't have older sisters ) we're forced to get our heads around this as far back as junior high, especially when its realized that the best way to come off like a completely loser is to see that much beauty in someone and actually express it to them (rather - the more we behave to the contrary the better, even if we have no desire for a relationship, ie. "Not my kind of person", we keep them from walking on us socially or feeling like they can wield power; its an autonomy and respect issue).

Another thing, I know I'm bringing up a lot of 'guy' perks here, its also much easier for us to change what we're attracted to based on going realities. Those of us who get wise to the notion that looks and genetic chemistry are dangerous and something to be very wary of, generally have gotten to where we can't be triggered that easily unless we see a personality we like. I don't know how this works for women, I'd like to think the skill is readily there but - I've been hearing otherwise.

Over all though, if you're hooked on someone who you can't see it means you really are running on sheer luck - ie. they could be a great person, they could be an absolute abuser, much more likely than either of those they're probably just not right for you and it would show once the veil came down. Even people who 'seem' to have it together, and when you see how much they 'seem' like you and then do everything they can to ignore you - to me it usually means that there's more than what meets the eye, that you're likely not see what you think your seeing, and at a minimum they'll need some of the same treatment back to learn a lesson in respect and perhaps, once the games are off, you'll be able to see the real person a little closer to get a verdict on the mess.

I'm not saying that people usually or even more often than not have ill intent - people have autonomy issues, often enough want to soak in a sense of another person's identity over time and at a fair enough distance (unless they're either desperate or looking for a piece for the night), perhaps you may superficially not come off as their type but they may realize that they are attracted to 'you' (what's between your ears) once they get to hear you talk at length.

The overall idea though - don't prejudge but at the same time, know the possibilities and know what is and isn't real in the situation. I'm sure you already know well that yes - we have logical apparatus past many animals but, also, we're built on an animal frame, the animal has needs, and that's something that's impossible to escape without perhaps positing our consciousness in plants (then our social games would be on what - bees? sunlight?). Its simply the nature of DNA. It sucks, it makes our world an absolutely terrible place to live, it makes it so that we can have the best intentions but not the cognitive apparatus to see them through or instincts that throw a hard left or right curve in a perceptual blind spot - this is simply the nature of living as bio-matter within the confines of time, which even in that regard existing within time is form of servitude.

I particularly like this description.

Are you referring to having a person addressing their own personal problems to you, and when you offer them your objectivity they get upset because they just want a shoulder to cry on, and not a possible answer to their troubles? I have been told repeatedly myself to keep in mind that most people want an ear to listen to them whine... Not an outside, objective perspective, which is what I usually want from others when I'm emotionally caught up in something. I know I can't see past what I'm feeling in order to effectively problem-solve or strategize my situation, much like how it could be difficult for someone in debt to try to do their own accounting... They'd get so discouraged by the numbers, they might never finish. :S



Makes sense to me... Especially in a situation where I'm so overwhelmed emotionally that I start to lose focus/motivation. That human part of me (as you described it) wants to sit there and cry and pity itself (I will RARELY let this happen), but my rational side is like, "What the hell good is that going to do?!" I can become especially frustrated in situations where an outside influence (i.e. - another person) is what's getting me torn between my two sides... On top of having to scold myself for being needlessly (or in fact, perhaps debilitatingly) emotional at a time where I need to focus, I get extra annoyed with my "human self" for possibly getting duped. Again.



I'm not sure I understand what the danger and resulting wariness of looks and genetic chemistry is... But I've always found that men who are "typically, by most women" considered quite physically attractive (chiseled jaw, perfect symmetry, muscles, etc) to be less likely to catch my eye than others, with little things (like goofy hair, crooked teeth, etc). That said though, my view of a person's physical appearance often changes drastically upon getting to know them as an individual (their personality).

The first time I remember that happening was in the Third Grade... This girl in my class had always seemed so beautiful to me. Her hair, her skin... I coveted what she had, and wished I could have even just a fraction of her beauty. We became friends (for a very short time), and she was horrible! Really mean to her little brothers, an absolute brat with her parents, and had only cruel things to say about everyone at school. Even to this day when I see old pictures of her I can't help but think of how ugly she looked after that. On the flip-side, the first and only man I've ever loved had lots of "unusual" features, and I knew he liked me, but I didn't feel the same way. I felt so shallow, like a dispicable human being, since I knew it was just his looks standing in the way (he was a great friend). Months later, after falling in love with him, no one looked better to me. And again, to this day, he is an Adonis in my eyes!



^ I very much enjoyed the way in which you put this.

I've read Tony Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome. He describes what happens when a guy with Asperger's falls in love. This description matches limerence. As an aspie, I've had limerence.

Yeah, this is pretty much the idea.

The danger that I mentioned above is that a lot of people who do have too much too easy, it does make them a little schizophrenic and they get the sense that they can manipulate people, that they're far better or partly above morality (or they simply bless the world by existing) - technically speaking society kind of rots their brain out and if they weren't held on a pedestal by all or at least so many they'd probably be better adjusted. That's not to say that they all are like that, far from true and there are all kinds of traumas or internal struggles people can have which keep them at least somewhat out of range for going to the dark side, but, there's still unfortunately plenty out there who do.