Some things I've learned about people and women

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So, as a lot of you guys probably know, I started to get into pickup theory like five months ago and subsequently joined a group of guys that go out and "apply" pickup theory (I put this in quotations because the last thing you're thinking about is pickup theory when you're chatting up a girl) at bars, clubs, and anywhere there are large groups of people. On the first few outtings, it really felt like I had made a significant change in how I interact with women, and maybe it was a significant change. I had never been one to approach random women at bars or malls ever, and now I'm doing it pretty consistently. After a month or two, I even started getting phone numbers, dates, and occassionally, I'm sleeping with these girls (albeit they are never the ones I actually want!). My "close":approach ratio is not too good, and I probably end up doing anything with like 10% of the women I approach.

I''ve realized a lot of things about the pickup community, the pickup gurus, and the theories themselves in these past several months, too. The main thing is that it seems like very few people really improve their 'game.' Your game is your entire personality, physical attractiveness, style, and social skills combined. You can change things like your style and physical attractiveness pretty quickly by getting new clothes and going to the gym/eating well consistently, but that's only a tiny piece of the puzzle. Most of my improvement has probably come from getting some new, stylish clothes, being able to recognize the non-verbals of an interested girl, having a higher probability of making the impression of a guy who is fun to be around, lowering my standards a bit, and bringing the odds more in my favor through lots of approaches (this is the key one).

I would still say, though, if the average, neurotypical guy were given the same oppourtunities I have had, he would be getting laid by like 2-3 different women a month. I get approached by average to very attractive women like once or twice a night when I go out, and I end up driving a lot of these women away through something intangible about my personality and the way I talk (and sometimes the complete lack of rhythm I realized I have on the dance floor). I'm still a very friendly, nice albeit nerdy guy and a lot of club girls that initially were interested sense that weird nerdiness within 2-5 minutes and run off.

I still have that monotone, mostly unexpressive voice that some people with asperger's have, too. This is most definitely another reason they run off. I'm still pretty awkward (bad conversational timing, one cool, honest girl said I'm an awkward kisser, etc). I still have major trouble making emotional connections with women (and people in general) and when I do end up getting lucky, it's because I'm the girl's physical type and she really has it out for dorky yet social guys. I probably could've attracted the girl before I learned anything about pickup theory, I was just afraid of talking to tons of strange women and wasn't able to detect signals of interest.

Anyways, I don't think the pickup community really offers the solution for aspie guys to fix their problems with women because it's not that they have problems with specifically women, but rather people in general since they have such difficulty expressing their emotions in a non-awkward manner. People who can't express their emotions well are difficult to make an emotional connection with because it's difficult to detect that they are experiencing the same emotion as you. The pickup community absolutely does not teach you how to do this because 70% of making this important kind of connection is non-verbal. When I talk to people, I generally talk about stuff in a detached kind of abstract way, not how I feel regarding these things. My vocal tonality and facial expressions also kind of remain the same (eye contact isn't that hard to mimic; unless they're kind of nervous or angry looking, just look everybody you speak to directly in the eye). I can improve those factors but it's going to take a lot of work.

Unfortunately, the type of advice offered by the pickup community is completely useless in actual interactions with women because it's a type of information that is altogether completely different from the type of information you're utilizing when you're going out picking up women. Reading pickup theory to get better with women is analogous to working out all the physics equations necessary to ride a bicycle and thinking you'll be able to ride the bike. Bike riding and picking up women/socializing in general are completely experiential activities and the type of information that you do end up using in pickup is completely derived from your first person, subjective experiences. It's a very kinesthetic thing. The only things they can tell you that are helpful is to not be needy, dress better, have confidence in what you say/do, touch the girl asap if she seems friendly (not groping, just friendly touching her upper arm to make a point or whatever, and gradually progressing to kissing her from there, but if she shows any resistance, back down), be really friendly, and most importantly, approach. Anybody that's selling a product and charging more than 20 bucks to tell you some version of that is wasting your money.

I hope I didn't offend anybody here as I realize I've done it before...

I have the appearance and "acting charisma' to pull it off, but treating women like a conveyor belt is not something I'm into.

Picking up women for one night stands won't really help you in the future. It's not even a relationship.

Can you tell me more about recognizing the non verbals of a woman who's interested? Tis the bane of my existence.

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Last edited by therange on 22 Mar 2010, 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

People AND women?

You beat me to it.

Women aren't people....

I think the damage is already done with the OP though, he's still talking like he belongs to the "pick-up community." You're talking about women like they're a level in a video game that you have to conquer.

haha, I'm so sorry I made that error. What a bigot I am.

well, god love you for trying. and I think it's kind that you shared your experience. and I think it's good that you have had at least a degree of success, because I think it's important for guys (and women too but maybe to a lesser extent) not to feel such self-consciousness about lack of experience, that is something that really makes me sad here when I read about it. It's not something you look back on and feel justified about...I think you look back on all the time you felt worried about that stuff and think 'what a waste of energy'. But at least you don't have that to carry anymore. Some things you just have to move through in order to realize that they are useful to you, or not. With 'picking up' people I think the most important thing is that you don't misrepresent your motives as anything other than they are.

These observations by the OP are more realistic than the ones I see from so called "dating gurus." Especially this
part.

"Anyways, I don't think the pickup community really offers the solution for aspie guys to fix their problems with women because it's not that they have problems with specifically women, but rather people in general since they have such difficulty expressing their emotions in a non-awkward manner. People who can't express their emotions well are difficult to make an emotional connection with because it's difficult to detect that they are experiencing the same emotion as you. The pickup community absolutely does not teach you how to do this because 70% of making this important kind of connection is non-verbal. When I talk to people, I generally talk about stuff in a detached kind of abstract way, not how I feel regarding these things. My vocal tonality and facial expressions also kind of remain the same (eye contact isn't that hard to mimic; unless they're kind of nervous or angry looking, just look everybody you speak to directly in the eye). I can improve those factors but it's going to take a lot of work. "

And it's not guaranteeing success with whoever you want.

Yeah! They're objects!

Arrgh!

I didn't bother to read the original post. Too long, and too guru-y! Yes, I've seen these theories before and I am convinced that anything long and complicated will be too much to remember and come across badly if put into practice. I don't follow dating gurus. Whatever happens will have to happen naturally and on it's own or this just isn't going to work.

Yeah that caught my attention too

Tuning my non-verbals using the information I get from my first person experience of approaching women has given me much better input and gotten me better results with socializing in general. It only works up until a point, though. The only reason I turned to this is because I was so fed up with my lack of success with women that I absolutely had to change. It appears that the only way I learn things is through massive trial and error, and by getting a date every once in a blue moon as someone who wasn't proactive about women, it was gonna take me for f*****g ever to get laid.

At the age of 23, I had gone on a a couple dates (COMPLETELY scared away an initially interested woman just because of how serious, non-romantic, and boring I was on the date) with an attractive girl I awkwardly chatted up at a library and never touched a girl beyond a friendly hug. I probably hadn't even been in a social interaction with a girl for more than 10 minutes until I turned 22, because they scared the s**t out of me for some reason. I had no idea how to make eye contact with people, male or female. I was so sick of this pattern of getting a crush on a woman that gave me no reason to have a crush on her (i.e. she showed me no reciprocative interest) and only knew me in a formal environment. I had no idea what the difference between interacting with a girl that likes as you as more than a friend and one that likes you as a friend is like. I used to be nervous asking women for their number or kissing them when they obviously want it. I also used to take rejection personally so much so that after that one girl didn't go on a third date with me, I thought I was gonna die a virgin. and I thought I must be hideously ugly.

After 5 months of approaching, none of those things are problems for me. I always see twenty-somethings here asking whether or not some girl likes them or what to do next with some girl that obviously likes them. Once you do a ton of approaches, it becomes blatantly obvious what the difference between an interested and uninterested girl looks like. I also see a lot of onenitis here, too, even when the guy has never hooked up with the girl and she clearly is uninterested. This will never happen to you again if you do what I've been doing.


I don't approach women with any lines, routines, or "value" theory (it's a weird/stupid theory popular in the community, don't ask). Anything beyond a positive, fun, unneedy, and sociable mindset and shamelessness about your attraction to her is way more than necessary. It's extremely simple. You will get rejected a lot. Nothing outright like "f**k off" or gettting slapped if you have any tact, but more something like you realize this isn't going anywhere after 3-5 minutes of talking to her and you make an excuse to get out of the interaction.

The dating gurus are mostly business men who are totally full of it. A great deal of them are not even good with women. I've heard advice like you should spend 1 hour reading theory for each hour you spend approaching, and I think that's a complete nonsense business tactic. Think about it, if you follow that advice, it basically pushes you to keep purchasing their products about something that is largely non-verbal. If you like what some dating guru is saying, go ahead and read his book or watch one of his video series (hint: all of the PUA's in "The Game" are scam artists [honestly, all of them are, but there does exist a small subset of people like us who do benefit from hearing about some things NT people would consider common sense]).

When PU theory is working, it's not because a certain theory is great (who knows, it may be good in a technical sense), but rather because you adjusted some obvious non-verbals and you approached a s**t ton of women. You are going to learn what it's like to make a great first impression purely through experience, and most crucially, you'll also have probability on your side.

Any PU guru (PUG) that tells you looks don't matter is full of it for 95% of people and probably 100% in the case of aspies. I say 100% for aspies, because face it, we're never going to be completely socially calibrated (presumably, outstanding social skills is what makes that 5% of people able to overcome their looks). There is something wrong with our brain regions that are involved in movement and socializing that an abstract understanding of no PU theory can fix. There will always be a weird undercurrent in the way you act, but you can definitely lessen how prominent this weird undercurrent is. On top of that, you can even use it to your advantage to create a bit of a mysterious image that some women are drawn to.

Here's a good pickup:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT2hvRipRSM[/youtube]

It's exceedingly straight forward and innocent. You obviously don't go that direct unless you notice the girl's eyes bug out of her head a bit when you're walking by. Everybody gets this when they're out and about, maybe the girl isn't that attractive, but still, everybody gets this. It's all about reading people. You don't have to be as direct as that guy, but simply by talking to these girls like even asking for directions, they'll be up for getting chatted up.

Regardless, the guy in that video is another scam artist simply because he sells his advice.