Why 'intelligent conversation' is taboo

Post Reply New Topic

I've had a lot of time to think about this recently - especially since I have a friend or two that are analyzing themselves on this as well as picking me apart on it. Where I agree with them, I've noticed most people - intelligent or otherwise, if your out having a drink, conversation is going around, and you make a comment or observation that happens to be very observant, structural, could be absolutely on point with the topic but just hit an angle that was much more in depth than what was going around in the conversation, people don't just roll it off and, in fact, it can and does start problems.

What I've learned about my social skills and a rather absolute hole in my own social skills (one that I don't think I'll ever be able to patch in - the mental apparatus I need for it quite literally does not exist, its absent from my head and thus I have zilch to work with) is being able to have 'basic' or 'dummed down' conversation. No, I don't go into wild theory, I don't break the topic and start talking about engineering, constellations, rather I listen to the conversation, say something directly on the topic, and I realize that I put a chill on the conversation. A great example of the specific kind of thing I'm talking about - a friend and I went to see a movie. When we got out we went to a restaurant, sat at the bar and ordered our food since it was kind of late and we didn't feel like taking a booth. They had menu black boards with some really good chalk art, we were chatting up the bar tender and she mentioned that a guy comes in to do work on this. I was looking at the specific drawing we were talking about (a fish) and admiring it because I knew that I'd never in the past been able to draw something like that - then it dawned on me that the artist had a base color in which he drew the entire fish and detailed in from there with lighter colors. I mentioned that (in 5th grade English - but it doesn't matter then again - its the concept itself that's the problem, big words would have just put it over the top), when I said that - it put a chill on the conversation. My biggest mistake is - I feel like being sociable, like what I'd assume other people are doing in sharing what they're passionate about in the immediate moment, what I'd think would be a good display of social skills - simply isn't.

I would also add that I understand, looking back, why I don't do basic conversation - when I was younger I tried to be the joker and, just by different wiring, I made absolutely no sense to anyone. I ended up being literally the most unpopular guy because no one could relate to me. I had to cut out a bad habit just to find out that cutting it out still left me with a void where I needed something better. Yes, I can joke with friends but the problem is - its Chapelle type humor, ie. too concrete/dry.

On what I think this means though - when I've watched this happen to me, when I've watched this happen to other people, this is what I think is going on: NT's in general have come up with an unspoken agreement that you are *not* supposed to say much of anything serious, much of anything too observant or too intelligent, simply because its been agreed upon that this is 'flouting' behavior (ie. being a braggard or being belittling without specifically saying the words). Even when you're out with intelligent people, if its a mixed crowd, the intelligent people will even start giving you a bit of a cold shoulder because they'll realize that you just aren't getting it - ie. they could do exactly what you are but they aren't, because they have class or understanding of others, and they have to assume that you don't.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the picture is always this harsh - if your around strictly intelligent people and the conversation is desired (ie. everyone's sober - not at a bar), its ok, otherwise though, you really have to watch the rules of the situation).

For me though, even knowing those rules and even though I've had strong inklings throughout my twenties that this is exactly how it works - I simply haven't had a replacement plan. I really would like to figure out how to do conversation that is strictly social and basic but the challenge is, as I mentioned before - its not natural, I would have to intellectually 'get it', that probably sounds absurd, weak, etc. but - this is just the kind of challenge that I'm stuck with in my own neurology whether I like it or not. I realize that if I can't learn this - I will have to keep my mouth shut more often than not and yes, I will cause a social disturbance by doing that, or I will will be saying things that offend simply by actually cutting loose and enjoying a conversation (in some situations thats fine but in most - my way is the wrong way).

So I'd really like to direct this thread toward how to have 'basic' conversation, for people who've maybe had the same struggles and found a way around them? I will say right now - I wouldn't doubt that there are people reading this itching to come down on me for not just citing these people's 'inferiority' and throwing them aside; I'll say it right now - I think that's both a highly incorrect and highly destructive assumption, to yourselves and those around you, if you don't care about your life's outcome or adjusting to meet others half way that's your business - I'd rather keep this thread to people who are interested in making the most of things and really trying to understand the world around them).

Whenever I read your posts, it seems like something I'll be thinking 5-10 years from now. This is the one big aspect of NT behavior I am poor at.

I think intelligent conversation has its time and place. If you're out for a drink with friends, people are probably just looking to relax and talk about easy subjects, not get into an in-depth examination of life, the universe etc.

Also, the purpose of social drinks seems to be to get along with all the people in the group so everyone has a good time. If you stick to safe topics, there is minimum risk of the conversation going above peoples' heads, or offending someone with different views to your own.

I used to belong to a hiking group. The motto of walking was 'always let the slowest walker set the pace', so that nobody got left behind. I think group conversation is the same; 'deep' conversation is all very well, but some people may feel left out if it is not their area of expertise. Nearly everybody is capeable of superficial chit chat.

Very rarely will you find people willing to discuss these things with you, and here's why.

People live in their own little bubbles; they subconsciously tend to avoid things that challenge their established beliefs - that, so to speak, threaten to pop this bubble, which would cause them pain. As a result of this, many people retreat from "Book learning", or actively surround themselves with information sources that agree with them, essentially making a safe little nest for themselves - and then you come along, and stand out like a sore thumb. Understanding that ordinary people see intelligent discussion as a challenge to their ideas can help you shape your conversational approach.

Similarly, people may become quiet or uncomfortable around you when you start talking "intelligently" because they feel inferior, maybe even a bit resentful/envious, and most certainly like they are being judged by you as something lesser. Be aware that normal people are squishy beneath the surface, and you may find new meaning in conversational discourse with them as a study in human attitudes.

I find the best approach to engaging ordinary folks is to ease them into the topic with friendly, noncontroversial topics. Having a good sense of humor is extremely useful in this regard, it being something that can break down the most complex topic to something the average Joe can comprehend in a non-threatening format.

Be patient, be polite, be aware of when you're pushing into uncomfortable territory, and you'll find that most ordinary folks have very intelligent things to say about certain topics - they're just afraid to say them.

That's easy.

The average citizen of the USA reads a newspaper that is printed at a fifth grade level (The New York Times is printed at a 12th grade level).

TV programs are "dumbed down," all in the name of ever increasing violence. Who needs intelligence, when violence feels more comfortable supposedly with many people. Cartoons have become more violent over time. The days of "Peanuts," "Tom and Jerry," and other cartoons from old give way to ones like "Beavis and Butthead," "South Park," and others.

The news media loves to broadcast and print negative news, because it is a "cash cow" to them. More negative news = feeling more negative about one's self and in the environment around that person. Very rarely are stories with a positive spin mentioned on the news, the internet, or in hard copied periodicals. Positive stories don't sell as well as negative stories. Since when has a soap opera had a dominate positive theme to it? Never.. most everything has a negative tone to it.

Something else to throw out there - off of something Max brought up and something I realize that I'm doing as a coping mechanism after writing that last post which is this:

I started showcasing my intelligence so other people couldn't, effectively, drag me into their bubble and rape me. that meant that I literally had to jam their bubble as it came at me, deflect it, and do the game of wills to let them know it wasn't happening (though it really depended where I was in the day and how much mental energy I had left). I have a certain kind of look about me that's conducive to people trying - a lot - when they get any impression that I might be as soft, kindly, dumb, or emotionally weak as I apparently seem to look to them on first glance. The problem is, regardless of how much I'd think that I trust myself not to do the same thing to others - I may be giving them the exact same feeling that I'm trying to keep them from putting me through, whether, even if I'm giving them that to a significantly lesser degree - they're not used to it or knowing how to deal with the emotions that come with that, I on the other hand was just that genetically lucky to be singled out a bit more often.

That's a whole other dynamic that I have to consider in this - ie. I will need to add a layer of interpretation or digestion to what I'd already say rather than just trying to shut it down as the hole left in the wake of that would be dangerous.

Glad to have been a help.

I hate seeing supposedly smart people on a leash.
Also, though I can see how this can relate to Love and Dating, you have made absolutely no attempt to drive your topic in that direction.

THis doesnt just wind up being an annoyance to others in relationships, it can also piss off people in day to day life, so really it would be a better fit for the social skills forum than just simply love and dating, hence why I will give an example of why it doesnt apply to only love and dating.


I tend to make observational/logically constructed comments all the time, and to alot of people, they tend to be very pessimistic comments. And god forbid if one of them is an extreme optimist, it will then escalate into a flame war, but with real spoken speech. A good example ive had would be the following, which is a real conversation that has happened. I got a door to door person asking for donations for a cause once and it went like this. And Yes, its a damn group ran by an evangelical church so I was gonna be blunt to begin with.

Yeah, that seems like way too much work. I would have just said "I'm strapped for cash right now. Is there a way that I can contribute online?" - taken the literature in and pitched it in the trash. Its the same for the timeshare people "Really? Ok. So where can I find out more about this? Sounds great. What's your name? Your phone number? Great - I'll research it this afternoon and call you back" - which, of course, I do none of the above.

I think it depends on the group of people. If you're around people of mixed intelligence, some of them will just not know how to engage the conversation, so some of this subset will feel put off, and others might just quietly enjoy it. A lot of people consider too much thinking to be work, so if they're at a bar, they'd rather relax and avoid such topics; these people might become annoyed and feel you're trying to show off. Intellectually competitive people might feel the urge to show they know more than you.