A circle of superficiality (a good, thought provoking post)

Post Reply New Topic

Man, it has been a very long time since I've made a post on here, but I've observed some things in my everyday life, and I thought I'd make a post about it.

I was at work yesterday, and one of my female co-workers said that guys are a bunch of douche bags. I wasn't really offended, there are guys that are jerks, but I was curious as to what she meant, and I asked her why she thought guys were so bad. She explained that her bf was nice in the beginning when they first started dating, and after dating a while, he became lazy and uninterested in her, preferring to relax all day and drink beer. Furthermore, she believes that her bf is cheating on her, thus increasing her feelings of resentment and distrust.

Today, I was checking my Facebook, and I saw that one of my friends' friends was commenting as to how the "nice guy" is a mythical creature, like bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. I was amused by this, but also I found it rather naive.

Which brings me to my point....

Through these observations, and others, I've come to the conclusion that whenever I hear statements like these, it is the result of what I call the circle of superficiality. Now there are exceptions to my belief in this circle, as much as I like to see the world in black and white, there are always shades of grey. Not all guys and gals are superficial, and not all of them want the same things. What I'm addressing is extremist views on the subject of disillusionment of there not being any "good girls that want nice guys" or "good guys"

For nice guys who claim that women only want "bad boys" and ignore good guys:

First and foremost, not every girl you are attracted to is interested in "bad boys". If I've learned anything, girls are different in what they are interested in and like. Yes, there are a minority that seeks out that kind, but I do not believe that it is ALL girls. When it comes down to it, I believe that all women, with some exceptions, want to be loved and cared about with whatever guy they meet and get romantically involved with. It is just that several choose the wrong kind of guys because they are attracted to their extroverted nature and their confidence in themselves.

However, you know what I've noticed? Most "nice guys" only seem to be attracted to the most physically attractive girls around, the ones that almost ALL guys chase after. They are after the creme de le creme of females, because they are naturally attracted to them. If we're talking about a girl who is average looking or plain, "nice guys" ignore them because they aren't "attractive", and therefore they dismissed romantically. Being a "nice guy", in my opinion, is an attempt to try to justify why all attractive girls should give you a chance, as opposed to these "bad boys", who just might be equally very extroverted, playful, friendly, or confident guys who got the gal when you didn't.. I'd be a humongous hypocrite if I didn't say that all this applies to me as well, it does. I admit I'm guilty of everything I've mentioned above, but I realize what's going on, and I'm just as superficial as other "nice guys". I'm just stating my beliefs on this circle of superficiality.

For girls who claim that "nice guys are a myth" and that "all guys are jerks" etc, and so forth:

In my opinion, girls who claim these things are guilty of the same superficial traits that "nice guys" have. Some of you say that guys appear nice in the beginning, and that over time, they change and become different. You know, I can certainly believe this, a lot of guys stop showing interest after they've already got the girl. I suppose the mentality is "why put more effort into a girl when she's already agreed to be your girlfriend, the work is done, so why put on a front to attract her?"

Some of you gals claim that there are no "nice guys". But then again, just like the nice guys, aren't you attracted to guys that come off as overly confident, arrogant, extroverted, and have an air of power and authority to them? Are you attracted to the guys that most girls are attracted to? This should be a tell-tale sign that these kind of guys might be trouble in the future, I'm not saying all of them are, but many might be.If a guy can charm you, he can charm countless other girls as well. He probably knows that he can't get other girls because of his charisma, so what would stop him from cheating on you? A sense of "honor" or "emotional connection"? These are terms that girls naively believe in, but when it comes down to it, guys who cheat will cheat and not think anything of it. You may believe in "loyalty", "honor", "true love" and all these fancy, poetic concepts, but a lot of guys aren't bound by that mentality. Women view love as the time a guys spends with her and the attention/love/affection he bestows upon her. Guys, even nice ones view love in the sexual aspect, whether they engage it, as most do, or not. Don't forget that! The truth of the matter is, there are nice guys around you, you, just like nice guys who ignore average to less attractive girls, ignore them. Guys who are generally nice and friendly are not the most extroverted people (often I find this to be the case, but there are exceptions). They tend to be shy and reserved, they aren't going out there and trying to hit on gals and trying to be all charming and bold. A lot of my friends are true "nice guys", and they tend to fit this profile. I know you gals are attracted to extroverts, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of extroverted guys, unless they truly believe in a sense of honor, will willingly choose to be interested in a more physically attractive/playful girl when he sees her.

Now, I know that there is a certain level of physical attraction that needs to take place for a girl to be interested in a guy. I won't argue that. But it is my belief that unlike guys, who judge a woman's worth primarily through her physical beauty and secondarily through her ideas, beliefs, and personality, women are more inclined to be attracted to a guy who appears dependable, easy going, and caring. When it comes down to it, you want to be loved and cared about, right? Isn't that the goal? Perhaps then you should go after guys who aren't hanging around girls all the time and who are trying to be playful/charm/romance them. Just some food for thought.

That's all I wanted to say, I wanted to put my opinion out there. Now I will leave it to you, the readers of this post, to make your comments either supporting or condemning this post. But I do want to hear what you think, because I believe I've covered a lot of good points that have been overlooked in this forum. Thanks!

It's a good post that brings up a lot of important points. No condemnation here, only support.

Hehe, well, I think it's up to us to determine if your post was good and thought provoking... Saying such is a little like sig-quoting yourself.

But it basically was, so you're off the hook this time.

The only critique I can think of at the moment on that post is that I feel like you've characterized men to the 'the cheaters.' As if they do it more than women, rather than about equally. I can't cite any single study to prove or disprove anything, I simply dislike the characterization.

A minor quibble though, really.

Men and women both can cheat. There may be different reasons but both genders can cheat.

About the "but there are no nice...." idea, it can happen that sometimes people get disillusioned. Women can believe that there are no nice guys out there for a few different reasons, I'm guessing that guys can be the same but I'm not a guy so I can't speak for them. It can be because they pick the attractive confident person but there can be other reasons. I won't go into the other reasons because I'd be repeating stuff I said in another thread and I don't want to be a bore.

GREAT post AutisticMalcontent. That's kind of what I meant in other post when I* said peoples re being to picky & should be more open to giving others a chance. You explained much better than me

Duly noted noted on the "well I think it is up to us to determine if your post was good and thought provoking...". It does come across as a bit arrogant. In truth, I put "a good, thought provoking post" because I wanted more people to read this post and give their two cents on it. "A circle of superficiality" has such a negative undertone to it, so I had to do something to lighten it up a little bit and make somewhat interesting/appealing .

As for your observation concerning what I wrote about men being characterized as "cheaters", that's a very sensible and logical observation. I did make a big point on that in this post, so I'll explain my reasoning behind it.

But before I do, let me say this- everything I say is my opinion and there are ALWAYS exceptions and different circumstances. Although when I do talk in this forum, I speak in black and white, I know there is grey to everything. All guys don't behave the same way, and neither do all women behave the same way, what I talk about are trends that I notice. I know that I come across as extreme, so I thought I'd note that I do realize that there are always exceptions.

I don't believe that all guys are cheaters, but I do believe that when it comes to relationships and loyalty in them, I believe guys and girls have different mentalities on the issue. Like I stated earlier in the post, according to psychology, women view love as the amount of time a guy spends with them and the amount of affection and care they show them. In my opinion, women view things with a very strong emotional slant (I'm not saying that women can't view things logically or objectively, they do, but I believe that they often have emotional influences). Thus women view relationships as an emotional commitment to a guy. Therefore, things like "trust", "honor", "commitment", "love" take on a more serious meaning. Women can cheat, but I don't hear about it very often, and if cheating does occur, I believe it is due to the girl not being satisfied and content in the relationship and perfering a way out.

As for guys, like I said, we view things sexually when it comes to love, whether we submit to those feelings or not. I think guys are interesting because some of us are more influenced by emotions then others. For instance, a neurotypical guy who is very introverted and knows he can get whatever gal he wants will do so, and he doesn't mind cheating or fooling around with other women, where another guy might believe women should be treated with honor and respect and will do as such. However, my point is that a lot of NT guys, because they are not strongly bound emotionally to women, are more capable of cheating in my opinion. As for us aspies, I believe because a lot of us have been alone and aren't the most suave around the opposite sex, are more inclined to believe in virtuous behaviors, like being honorable, respectful, and kind to the opposite sex and not toying with them.

I guess the only way this can be proven is to see how each sex responds to being cheated on. From what I've seen, when a guy and a girl have been dating for a while, and the guy cheats on the girl, there are various things that can happen. If the girl has become really attached to the guy, I'm willing to bet she'd be heart broken and upset, probably crying and wondering "Why did he cheat on me?" Later on, she probably would become angry at the guy. That's one scenairo.

Another scenairo would be that she would immediately get angry and want nothing to do with the guy. A logical response, influenced by emotions.

As for guys who are cheated on, their reactions are similar, but the occurences of a guy being cheated on pales compared to the many, many occurences of a guy cheating on a girl. Guys react in these ways, I believe:

Scenario A:

They become furious when they realize that they've been cheated on and look to mend the situation by breaking ties with the girl or finding the guy that the girl cheated on with and solving things violently by taking it out on the guy and staying with the girl. Or he breaks ties with the girl AND deals with the guy the girl was cheating with violently.

Scenairo B:

The guy finds out he's been cheated on, and it devastates him, because he isn't emotionally bound to the girl. It deeply upsets him and he decides to break up with the girl, or gives her another chance to redeem herself. He either moves on with his life and finds another girl, or he mopes around by himself, wondering why the girl cheated on him.

Basically, in summary, I believe women are more emotionally inclined than men, because they are wired that way. Therefore everything has a strong emotional attachment to them, and most of them (with some few exceptions), won't do anything that will go against their personal beliefs, morals, and beliefs, which they have strong emotional attachments to. Therefore, in a relationships, they are significantly much less likely to cheat than males are, who are not strongly bound by emotional concepts like "trust", "loyalty", "honor", etc.

You're right, men and women both cheat. However, would you agree that men are much more likely to cheat than a lot of women do? Like I stated in my response to Sound, it is my opinion that women are much more strongly bound to guys emotionally in a relationship than a lot of guys are to the girls. There are always exceptions, but I believe that most guys, even though they have emotions, are not emotionally bound to concepts like "loyalty", "love", "commitment", etc. I'm not saying all guys will cheat, I'm saying that a lot of average NT guys (in my opinion) are not as emotionally motivated as women when it comes to relationships, so they are much more capable of violating social norms, like cheating instead of breaking up with a gal, more so than a girl can.

My beliefs on this is strictly based on observations, rationalizing, and deducing. I can only speak for being a guy, like as you stated when you said "I'm guessing that guys can be the same but I'm not a guy so I can't speak for them". This is just my opinion on the issue, what I say is NOT fact because there are always different circumstances.

Thanks, nick007. As for this post, I'm not so much saying that people should be more open to giving others a chance, as I am basically exposing the hypocrisy and superficiality attributed to statements like "there are no such things as nice guys" and "girls always ignore nice guys and go after the bad boys."

As for "I said people are being too picky & should be more open to giving others a chance", I really can't say that people should be that way. I'm not going to lie, I'm superficial, and like I said in the post, "nice guys (imo) seem only interested in the most attractive girls, and ignore the average to below average looking ones. I'm guilty of that, and I have ignored girls I found average to below average looking for more physically attractive girls.

Therefore I can't really say that people should stop being picky and should give other people a chance without being a huge hypocrite, and I'm already guilty of hypocrisy in many areas. Ideally, yes, it would be nice. It would be nice if any guy or girl could meet a member of the opposite sex and get along with them romantically without all the mental restrictions, unrealistic expectations, and double standards that we all deal with. But I doubt that will happen.

Great and insightful post, AM. I think there is a lot more truth to it than a lot of us would like to admit -- introspection hurts sometimes.

Yup, well said. I tend to get PO-ed when people think like this ("guys are cheaters"/"no girl wants a nice guy") too much though. I hate it when people make such broad generalizations, and I'm not often that hypocritical about it. I probably have the opposite problem. I like to think of people as so unique and different from one another that I end up ignoring a lot of the good heuristics about them and how to deal with them. >.>

I can't say I have that much exposure to this problem overall though. I dunno, I guess I just get too annoyed at people who think that way about people to bother dealing with them for long when they start talking like that. o.o;

I also get a little annoyed when people insist upon things like "guys like these things" and "girls like those things", or "guys are like this" and "girls are like that".... ^^; ... Maybe I just dislike gender-generalizations 'cause I'm such a complete freak of nature in that department. xP

Here's the problem. I am female and granted, it has been about 3 years since someone asked me out (I said no), but it seems that the only guys that approach me are the self-assured arrogant ones. They are the only ones that have the confidence. I don't like them and I swat them away like they are flies. I don't want a guy that's only asking me out because I'm number 22 on his list. The guy who asked me out last is now married to the only girl in our group of friends who he hadn't asked out yet. She was the only one who said yes. I could have been the only one that said yes, we would have been unhappy. He's too much of a chauvinist. I don't like guys like that. I want to be respected.

I like the shy, caring guys. They don't talk to me. What am i supposed to do? I try and make it easier for them. Maybe by having a party and inviting them. They don't turn up. I try and invite them to another party. They don't turn up. I suggest I could buy them a coffee as a thanks for, lets say, fixing my car. They look terrified and don't take me up on it.

It's all very well saying that I should give the nice guys a chance, but what if they don't bite? What if it scares them too much and they run away and hide?

It's a catch 22 situation.

An understandable lament.

But before you get upset over some of these views, or dismiss them, bare in mind that these generalizations are the result of lots of time and experience with lots of people, and a lot of relationships, which you will probably lack at your age, particularly if you're an introvert. This forum is full of very smart people, some of us with quite a bit of experience, and a critical eye for efficacy, even at the expense of comfortable/convenient worldviews, so at least think about how we may have come upon our generalizations. It may be true that we see a larger picture than what you've had access to in your life thus far.

On the other hand, if you can effectively argue your view, or find holes in those other perspectives, then by all means.....

At some point you have to ask yourself, is that really the kind of guy you want? One too shy to even accept a date with you? What kind of father/decisionmaker/breadwinner is that guy going to be?

I understand you not wanting aggressive or arrogant men, but face facts that a certain amount of male aggressiveness and self-assurance is the product of hormones (testosterone), and that aggression comes with the territory to some extent. It almost sounds like you want to date another woman, rather than a man.

Men are (and not intentionally) normally:
-Messy
-unintentionally rude or obtuse
-aggressive
-horny
-visually-oriented
-optimistic when it comes to their chances with a woman

Someone who doesn't fit the above isn't necessarily abnormal, but they may be. And you may be going for the men who just aren't right for you -- could it be that the aggressive men who you "swat away like flies" are in fact the right ones for you, and you are the only one who doesn't know it?

What is it specifically you want from a man?

Well, I'm available... but like Bill said, I don't think you'd like me...

If you're gonna make an attempt, it helps to not disqualify yourself with your first words, dude.

No, I really agree with you. They're fairly accurate most of the time.

*writes out a rant, deletes it, rewrites it* ... *leaves the page, comes back later and starts to try writing out another explanation, more calmly, then deletes it partway through*

The rules for dating between a guy and a girl are too rigidly defined still to fit my own personality. I'm too much of a girl, as I've been told, to get the girls who like boys. xP... I can't help not liking guys, however much people seem to think I should be gay. -__-; ... As a lesbian, I might get along a little better, and I wouldn't have to keep following as many of these weird gender rules that don't make sense for me.

I've actually learned how to get along the "right" way okayishly before. It was never perfect, but I could be reasonably charismatic and even get the girls from time to fleeting time. The only problem with that is that I was still being forced into roles I don't like. To be quite frank, I can't stand it when people try to throw notions of machismo at me, or make me "be a man", and even have some trouble when a girl wants me to take charge in a relationship, among other things. It's not in my nature in the least, and the more I tried it (mostly back in high school) the more I just disgusted myself. It's horribly puzzling overall. I really hate not fitting into the picture, or having any rules I can figure out how to follow, but it just does not seem to work for me.

I've gone out in female attire before, even passed, and gotten the attention of a girl or two even as I passed for one, and I have to admit, it felt better that way. At the same time though, I don't feel like I should have to. I like my body fine the way it is really, despite not being nearly as attached to my manhood as other people expect I should be. I just don't want to deal with dangerous chemicals and surgeries to be treated the way I'd prefer. It's mostly because of these stupid rules about how guys and girls are and are supposed to be. I hate them with a passion, albeit a passion that still puzzles me.

I know it doesn't have to be that way though either. I once had a fairly satisfying relationship with a girl, just being who I am, with no disguises of my person, mental or physical. It was hard to let go when it ended.... I'm still surprised I never stalked the girl, but I don't suppose that would be like me either.

I have to admit, right now I'm extremely confused and my sanity is becoming somewhat questionable, so any advice would be appreciated. Even if the words contain no useful advice, the mere attempt would be appreciated.

Hfff.... I shouldn't sign up for forums while I'm being screwed up in the head. I make bad impressions that way while I'm really just trying to make friends. -.-