Way Too Long Marriage Rant

Post Reply New Topic

I've got a few questions for WP members. I think it appropriate to post the questions here because I don't trust my own reactions/emotions as much as I'd like--it's hard for me to tell when my reactions are a function of Aspy nature versus personality versus whatever.

A little bit of background is in order. In the interest of keeping this relatively brief I'll hit what I think are the highlights. More info can/will be forthcoming if needed for discussion.

Married at the age of 19 to high school sweetheart--really my only serious girlfriend to that point in my life. Had serious reservations about getting married but did it anyhow basically to get out of my parents' home.

First kid together 2 years later. Worked my way through college while married/parent on full time basis by way of scholarships and just plain working.

Wife and I separated 5 years after getting married and divorced at the 6 year point. While I initiated it we both agreed that it was the thing to do.

I continued on in school and she moved out of state to be with her parents. While I did have a very tough time emotionally working through it all--basically feeling lost, like a fool, worried about our son, etc--I stuck to it and began dating, etc. My ex-wife didn't do so well--predictably, if you had asked me--and started wanting to get back together within a year of the official divorce. I consistently told her that she just needed to give it time as well as make a genuine effort to move on.

I resisted...then, after being lulled (by me or by her I still can't say, probably both) into thinking that I owed it to my son and to "us" to give it another chance, we moved in together about 2 years after the actual divorce. I felt very similar to the way I felt when we first got married, but told myself to shut up and deal with it. I also put down "terms" for getting back together--she had to go to college and/or learn some kind of profession was first/foremost. Of 8 brothers and sisters only 6 had graduated from high school, and 5 were drug addicts or alcoholics. All of them criticized me heavily/frequently for earning first my bachelors, then masters degree (in a high paying medical discipline, so it wasn't merely intellecual exercise).

Things seemed to go fairly well--I still had serious concerns but figured maybe it was just me needing to relax/not be so uptight about certain kinds of things. We ended up getting remarried "justice of the peace style" a couple months after we both finished university (she also entered the medical field into a secure good paying job). Within a year our second child was born....and four years later our third/last child.

We went through the usual things...saved up to build a modest home, family vacations, etc. To be honest, I was generally unhappy. I felt that she continued to behave in the same ways that she had done "before" IE lying about things (large and small, relevant and inconsequential, etc), hung around with very questionable friends (women, not men...at least as far as I know, though there were rare occurrences of things that seemed curious to me, but nothing concrete, nor was it frequent) who, when I say "questionable" I mean always with drug/alcohol histories (though my wife truly has never touched/dabbled in the stuff), typically single mothers with multiple children from more than one man, etc. It wasn't so much a matter of they were "bad" people...they were just people who she/we would seem to have nothing in common with....and she had our kids around these people all of the time...including when cops would show up at the homes of these women when their recently-paroled "men" would show up at the home with violence/confrontation on their minds, etc. My wife always said that she felt that my friends looked down on her...which was generally untrue since they didn't look down on her, they just constantly blurted out the same stuff that I was also thinking about what she did/how she did things...basically, WTF?!

Anyhow....about 10 years after finishing university we relocated to Alaska (from a large metropolitan area on the midwest). There's a LOT to say about the in-between times, things that happened, obvious patterns of problems, etc, but that would take another 3 pages to go over. Suffice it to say I have had the same friends for years--she has had at least half a dozen "best friends forever" with whom she always ended up clashing/splitting from permanently and nastily...as in these people would mysteriously become jerks and idiots for unspecified reasons, hateful phone calls back/forth between them, etc. I generally had as little as possible to do with her friends and as little as possible to do with her family--I did my best to be civil/polite/aloof and impersonally cordial....it was absolutely not the case that I drove the people off. Eventually, in a few cases, the former friends would say that they had enough of her manipulative behavior, lying, etc. I never got details of specific incidents but there were clear themes/patterns.

So...and this is going waaayyy longer than I intended, sorry once in Alaska my wife managed to start doing the same kinds of things with her new friends in Alaska....suddenly the 6x daily phone calls would stop and she would always say "I don't know what so-and-so's problem is." Because I never liked her friends anyhow their disappearance from the radar screen meant nothing to me.

We have always clashed over child rearing......we both have strengths and weaknesses, of course, but the general problems as I see them are that she is too lax with them, horrifically inconsistent and undermining (she tells me that she can't handle them, so I do my best to put together a plan of action with her which she says she'll support, but inevitably totally undermines turning the whole enterprise into a sick joke 9 times out of 10, etc), and generally models bad behavior--gossip on the phone about other people constantly, lying about the ,most trivial of things, etc. My weaknesses....probably too strict as far as starting points go (eg you have to earn your 11 oclock curfew by showing that you're trustworthy with an earlier one first, as opposed to the other way round where you get a midnight curfew and then try to take it back if you mess up--the former is my way, the latter would be hers). Another weakness of mine is that I hate confrontation to the point where once I feel that what I say/do will be irrelevant/pointless I just mentally "check out" which is to say, I just give up and probably stick my head in the sand...though I'm always aware of what is going on, I just say "F*ck it, there's nothing that I can say/do that I haven't already done," etc.

A couple of years after moving to Alaska I decided that I had had enough of it all after yet another string of dramas and kid issues....so I left. I told her that she could have everything, that the only thing I wanted was "out." I said that I would take the kids full time, part time, whatever she wanted.

I gotta wrap this up.... .....Long story short....we separated again. Of course, she then got fired from her job (for the third time in 4 years) for interpersonal issues with the staff, and her dad was diagnosed with leukemia and had only months to live. So, within the space of 30 days, her husband left her, she was fired and jobless in a small town in Alaska, and her dad was dying. Determined as I was to make her see that we would BOTH be better off with other people, I felt enormous guilt even though only one of the "things" had anything to do with me. We had been married for over 20 years at that point, so it's not like just walking out--there are genuine ties/affection even what the marriage overall is toxic.

....so, once again, we got back together. This time she seemed to genuinely change. She was terrified and broken by all that had happened, though she clearly had no concept of (or willingness to admit to herself/others) her own part in much of what was going wrong in her life. Basically I felt even worse in some ways because she was like a concentration camp inmate---crying, hair falling out, saying that she would do whatever she had to do to be back with me, etc. The rational part of me said "Don't do it, don't look back," while the emotional/spiritual part of me felt terrible guilt and I felt that I would never be able to live with myself with the way that I figured things would inevitably go for her both short term and long term.

Since getting back together, things seem to have been better than they ever were...but that isnt necessarily saying much. She still lies all of the time (and I know what some of you are thinking, that she must be afraid of me or have other reasons that she feels compelled to lie--all I can say to that is no, I know that isn't true, she is/was an incorrigible/pathological liar back to childhood according to her family and schoolmates, etc), we have nothing in common, share virtually no interests (though she follows like a scared puppy wherever I go/whatever I do nowadays, which bothers me even more than when she took no notice of my life/interests at all in the previous years), and don't have any friends in common (though again the pattern is that I do my best to be civil/cordial to her friends, while she just manages to disappear whenever my friends are around...all professional educated people in altruistic professions, etc, btw, not a bunch of effete snobs). Every now and again I catch fleeting but stark glimpses that things otherwise are the same as they always were in terms of "two different worlds"---the world she manipulates/controls for me to see, and the world that she really inhabits.

My view is that enough is enough. I no longer feel much anger or bitterness....now I just feel sad and broken, for BOTH of us because I know that we would both be so much happier/healthier if we were apart. I feel like a fool most of the time for playing along, and semi-secretly look forward to the day when our kids are out of the home since I think that that will be the beginning of a very short road to the end, FINALLY. She used to say that she wanted to go to counseling together, but after two visits each with 2 different counselors (chosen by her) confirmed from their mouths to her ears the very things that I had been saying/pleading for years, she no longer wants to go to counseling.

What do you think? I suppose this is just as much of a "venting" as questioning...in the wake of yet another instance of catching her in several lies over the last couple of days (and when I say catch, I mean like a blind squirrel finding a nut---I wasn't even looking for anything, it just played out that way...and it was about minor/stupid sh*t, not even anything that I cared about except that she had clearly lied). The kid raising issues are there as much as ever, she's been fired from another job (4th time in 6 years now, also for interpersonal issues, like usual), yadda yadda yadda....

Of course I see everything---and write/describe everything---through the bias inducing lenses of my own experience and personal nature, so it seems obvious to me that the problem here is codependency where I am the enabler.

Thoughts...any thoughts at all? Challenge me, correct me, validate me, whatever.....I think I know the answer but am still going over it again and again and again.....I can't stand being married to her just as much as I truly feel sorry for her just as much as I fear for her just as much as I feel sorry for myself just as much as I want to just "off" the whole thing and move on...etc etc.

Important correction to the preceding exposition....talking about my wife's brothers/sisters....of 8, six of them DID NOT finish high school...I had it the other way round in my OP....sorry...

I'm guessing your oldest child is at least 18 and the other 2 are between the ages of 11-17? If I'm right they are definitely old enough to decide for themselves who/where they want to live with. If you are open to letting your children decide which parent they want to live with, it might be a good idea. They also sound old enough to understand why you and your wife have issues and you may want to discuss some of it with them to determine how much they are truly aware of (kids are HIGHLY perceptive, even if disabled/don't know if your kids are but trust me on that one).
I have a funny family situation w/ a brother, 2 moms & a stepsister + her brother & unacknowledged fathers (they were jerks, etc.) So, from experience I know happy, separated parents are better than bitter, mentally ill/stressed, etc. parents for their kids.
What you are describing in your life amazes me b/c you dealt with extremely difficult circumstances. Your first priorities should be yourself and your three kids. But since you had such a long relationship with your wife, I'd try to maintain a good, strong or at least cordial friendship and move on to separate partners if you feel that is what you need. Also, do you know how much of your feelings of love you have/had towards your life are from you genuinely caring for her, your time together, or just appreciating her for giving you your children? Knowing that may help you sort through the bitterness I am almost certain you've developed towards her due to the type of life you had together and decide where to go from here.

Good Luck

It's clear that you are guild tripping in this matter. I'm young and have not yet been married but that doesn't make me less knowledgeable about personal relations.
You seemed to have done a great thing for her pushing her to go back to school.
I don't know how much time you both spend together regularly but knowing you have children I will guess quite a bit.
I believe if things are so bad and if a relationship is so lifeless there is no point in continuing, and it only ends up hurting both of you. But on the other hand it seems that she is very dependent on you, you seem to be the sturdy pillar in your relationship and the one that goes on steadily with with good friends and good job.
This leads to the obvious reason that all people are different and need their personal stimulations. Maybe the reason she causes so much trouble with friends and coworkers is that she doesn't get much of exchange at home. Maybe she needs arguments and gossip to some extent, I'm only guessing at this point but some people need different stimulation to feel that there is some content to their lives. As Aspies we need very little and we are able to keep to our things and places in a repeatable fashion. It does sound like you are up to a lot though. You sure made a life for yourself, and from what I've red you want this for your family as well, the will for everything to be OK and successful.
But time is the best revealer and you have had enough of it to show you what really is right and wrong and what feels good and what doesn't.
I understand that you have children and that might be a slight issue but if you are in a lifeless relationship the best thing to do is separation if it can not be revived or the will to do so is not there.
When I read your text I agreed with your second separation and I thought it was for the best but then reading on I discovered that you got back together and already then I knew that a relationship based on a stream of one sided sympathy that you felt for her is no way to be together. The feeling must be mutual and not sympathetic.
And I believe you not the kind of guy that wants to feel sorry for his wife. Nobody does.

Relationships and love in general is nothing that can be solved mathematically, there is only so much to say and so many pro's and con's that can be weighed, but it all comes down to emotion and how you truly feel.
Nobody should be in a relationship based out of sympathy, it will only prolong the inevitable, separation.

I get that you felt very sorry for her when she had so much troubles coming her way but after the healing process is done and your relationship still goes on and it all feels as it is forced upon you you should end it.

It's not health for any of you. One thing that comes to mind though and the most important I believe are the kids and what effect it will have on them. If the situation is explained to them it might help a little but children often take a load of the issues on their shoulders and it might cripple their academic progress.

I believe that the right thing to do is to separate and don't confuse the children an further with this off and on relationship. If you don't have any feeling left to spare and you know and feel it is over, then it is. But do everything to go easy on the kids.

(On a personal note I myself would never feel well being together with a person that seeks so much conflict and tends to lie a bout things. I hate lying and I hate unnecessary drama.)

Thanks to both of you for your replies thus far. As I said, I suppose my post is as much of a rant/whine as anything else---what you've expressed is consistent with my own suspicions and the advice of counselors and friends over the years. I just need to either steel myself for the task and get it over with....or shut up and wait for the calendar to wind down the years remaining until the last kid is done with high school.

One way or another, I will take control of what remains of my life and in the process, give hers back to her as well though I can't say that she will recognize it as the gift or opportunity that it will be based on past experience and observation...not because I am any kind of wonderful savior for her or anyone else...but because I believe that her constant playing of the fole of the poor helpless feckless wounded bird as a means of manipulating and coercing is far too ingrained in her nature for her to be capable of easily or durably giving it up as a tactic in favor of something healthier or more sustainable. We both have so much yet to give in life---I can see it even as she fails to see it, admit it, or engage the vision.

Still, I can't help but feel guilty believing as I do that I know how this story will end in the long run though she may have control of elements/characters over the short term.

I guess that aside from needing to break the codependent/enabling tendencies that I have been living/working/adapting with/to for more than half of my life, I also need to just let go of the notion that I can completely obviate the psychic hurt/trauma that is going to follow, especially for the kids.

I do agree that as far as the kids are concerned, I am totally screwed....I say this based on past experience and having an all to sharp sense of what I'm up against in this particular arena. If I wait to put this lame horse of a marriage down until they're out of the house then I know that the interim will not be healthy for them compared to the possibilities....then again, I know that she will not handle it in a healthy/clean/intelligent/rational fashion if we just put it all "down" right now. Seen it, heard it, etc, the last time around. She has no concept of how evil it is to hold other people emotionally/psychologically hostage--she cares about mitigating her own hurt/distress, not causing any to others. Hell, I almost believe that she isn't even conscious of what she says/does most of the time when it comes to injurious stuff like what I'm talking about.

No easy solutions.....I'm just trying to find the smartest one that causes the least amount of bloodletting and guilt, though I recognize that I while I cannot (and frankly never would/could) wantonly hurt/lash out at her along the way, I also cannot be responsible for where her own issues/self destructive tendencies take her.

Thank you, all, for listening and sharing...

I agree that my wife may or may not "make the most" of the evolution....but there's nothing that I can do about that except do my best to refrain from consciously/intentionally handicapping her ability/opportunity in this regard.

Kids....I have a good relationship with them, and I believe that they have a fair sense of which of the two of us represents a durably workable/serviceable life model. That having been said....all 3 kids are extremely intelligent but none of them have ever even come close to working up to their potential--oldest and middle two both in the C and D range throughout school. Youngest (daughter) gets mostly Bs with a few As but her behavior is atrocious---she has shoplifted, been dancing around the edges of becoming sexually active or at least precocious (just turned 12 this year), etc etc. It breaks my heart and drives me insane to look/see/know how and where and why things are going "wrong" with them. The kids in particular were an area that led to my wife quitting family therapy---the counselors suggested doing the very same exact kinds of things/strategies regarding child rearing that I had been espousing for years.

I have tried all sorts of things with them but feel that I have generally been undermined at every turn by my wife. There is ZERO consistency in the parenting dept----I have ranted, raved, begged, pleaded, praised, castigated, etc etc etc. In the end, it comes down to once I walk out the door to go to work (dating all the way back to when we were both in university) it's as if I was never there, had never spoken, didn't exist, and wasn't coming back. I know that readers of this board have no way to know/believe what I am saying about the parenting aspect of things, but I know in my heart/mind that there is nothing that I haven't tried....I have had to make peace with the fact that they will have at least heard/been exposed to the messages and values that I subscribe to, and hold out hope that as they get older they will be able to judge for themselves, and act/adjust accordingly. I could give one example or one hundred--it wouldn't matter.

As one example with the oldest son---at one point he faced having some of his toys taken away due to some behavior issue or another. When it came time to do it, my wife said that we could not take away Toy XYZ because it was his favorite. WTH?! So we should assert authority by taking away something that he doesn't care about?

An example with the middle child---he lost computer access/privileges as far as using his assigned laptop (every kid at the school gets use of one for the school year unless they use it improperly, which he did. So what does my wife do? Gives him her own laptop to use rather than let him learn any kind of lesson by having to adapt to the inconvenience and extra challenge imposed by abusing the privilege that he had lost of his own accord.

An example with the youngest/daughter---I refused to condone her wearing makeup other than simple lip gloss before the age of 14...so....my wife lets her wear FULL face makeup as early as age 9 saying that's what our daughter's friends did...and besides, "It doesn't hurt anything."

I could go on and on but there is no point. I am not a perfect parent....but I am consistent, I am open, I am educable/willing to change/review/reconsider/etc, and I believe in treating my kids like intelligent human beings loaded with potential and talent....and also responsible for their own lives and decisions. I know that each kid is different, and that it is both nature and nurture as far as how they turn out, grow, etc.

If we were to divorce today I know that my son would choose to live with me, and my daughter with her mother. Yes, they would likely both change schools, but that is very common in Alaska anyhow since people relocate very frequently here. My daughter is like me in that respect---she thrives on change. My son, though, is very much a mild mannered "home body" or "old soul" and would be distressed.

As with so much of what is being discussed/considered....it comes down to figuring out time and time again which is the lesser of two evils, or the option laden with the most opportunity, making the best choice one can from less than optimal choices/selections, etc.

...another example of how severe my concerns are regarding my daughter especially....

....I was going through her text messages on her phone not long ago when I came across several sexually explicit ones from what seemed to be a male sender. Her replies back were the usual litany of "I hate my parents, I want out of this house, where do you live," It was clear to me from the content/tone of the material that she was receiving (as well as the structure/content of her replies) that the guy on the other end was likely 17 to 22 age range and that he sensed he had one of those textbook vulnerable and precocious young girls on the line that he could reel in. I called the guy back told the person who answered who I was and that I was turning his number into the local police as a suspected pedophile. Never heard from him again as far as I know....of course, we live in a small town with a two cop police dept and a one trooper state police outpost focused on fish/game management, so nothing ever came of turning in the number.

But....the incident serves to illustrate how close to danger/destruction things with my daughter are. I took her cellphone away for the summer....and found out within a week that my wife had let our daughter start using her own (wife's) instead! Not with the intent of blatantly or overtly going against me---my wife was frightened and concerned about the messages, too, and agreed with taking away the cellphone----but because my wife gave in to our daughter less than week later when she/daughter "needed" to have a cellphone for the sleepover that she was going to (never mind she was supposed to be grounded, too) so that "you and dad can get ahold of me."

It boggles my mind and breaks my heart the insanity and stupidity that I feel like I'm up against....and I only use harsh/negative words like stupidity because I am getting exhausted, worn out, and at my wits end having done all of the "nice" things already more than a hundred times before sinking into the mud of trash talk...

i will be blunt. sorry in advance.

firstly, my advice is to get the heck out. now. and take the kids with you.

second, i am not a doctor, but i play one in my head.... are you familiar with Borderline Personality Disorder? because she clearly has issues... manipulation, inconsistency, extreme behaviour, pedestalizing/demonizing etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline ... y_disorder

if you decide to stay with her (against your own good advice, i might add, judging from the fact you have already left twice) it would perhaps be a good idea for your wife to have some seriously intensive therapy.