Can someone define shame for me?

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I have just been thinking how all of my ex-s were telling me how the fact that I was hiding them from my mom means that I was ashamed of them, which means I weren't happy about having her, as a person. In all cases, I kept verbally analyzing everyhting htat went on inside my head in order to convince them that it has nothing to do with them but it has only to do with me. No matter what I tried, it only led them to tell me that my own words prove their point.

Anyway right now I realized that I don't even have to analyze anything because I am not the only person who feels that way. For example, when someone is attracted to another person, they try NOT to look at them. Now, according to the logic of my ex-s the fact that they would try NOT to look at someone they are attracted to would imply they are ashamed of them. From my perspective, this is NOT about being ashamed but just about being shy.

So my question is this. How is keeping my girlfriends from my mom is any different from other people avoiding looking at the people they are attracted to? How come the former implies that I am ashamed, but not the latter?

Another thing that I would like to bring up is that yes it is true that I am ASHAMED that I spent so much time online which compromised my studies. SO this is where their theory is true -- I am both unhappy about having been online, AND I want to keep it from my mom. The one thing that contributes to my not wanting to tell to my mom about them is because they are a proof of something I don't want my mom to know.

Now, one of these ex-s used that statement to tell me that I have just admitted about being ASHAMED of the fact that I met them online. So, since I have admitted of being ASHAMED of one thing, this ammounts to admission that I am ashamed of THEM. Is it really true? You see, I am NOT saying htat the time I spent WITH THEM compromised my studies. Quite the opposite -- once I found them, I was NO LONGER online, since I have nothing more to look for. So, I am ashamed of what I did UNTILL I found them. So, why would being ashamed of something I did BEFORE I found a given person would ever be something that would hurt feelings of that person?

Perhaps it is a difference between me and others? Perhaps other people when they are ashamed of some aspect of situation they are ashamed of EVERYTHING about the situation? Becuase for me it just doesn't work that way. I can be ashamed of A without being ashamed of B. It always took a lot of effort on my part to prove to others that this is the case, but to me it is just natural. Is it really a difference between me and other people?

SO yah, basically there are two issues:

1)Being SHY about the fact that I am attracted to someone. To me, avoiding telling my mom about that is the same phenomenon as avoiding looking at people I am attracted to.

2)Being ASHAMED about the fact that I have BEEN online for such a long time which compromised my studies but has NOTHING to do with the person I am with, other than the fact that tehy would be an "evidence" for my "crime"

TO me it seems like my ex-s combined the word "shy" in part 1 and "ashamed" in part 2 to come up to a conclusion that I was ashamed of them.

Now can you guys tell me, could it be that I don't know the meaning of the word ashamed? Or could it be that the ex-s were trying to tell me that I have a SUPPRESS shame that I won't realize without a long term psychoanalysis? Or were they simply either not UNDERSTANDING what I was saying or weren't believing it? Any feedback will be welcome!

You don't have to tell your mom everything. Sometimes it keeps things less complicated when you don't get any parents involved in relationships. It has nothing to do with being ashamed. If you are avoiding your girlfriends in public and don't want to be seen anywhere with them, then you MIGHT be ashamed.

Finding someone online and being ashamed of that is completely different than being ashamed of someone. You're not ashamed of a person, but ashamed of your own action.

Try this...the next time your lady tries to tell you you're ashamed of her by not introducing her to your mom, tell them you're ashamed of your mom and don't want to embaress the girlfriend. You can also tell her that you want to keep your romantic life separate from your family life until you get to know her very well.

But if I eventually plan to marry then some time down the road I do have to tell it to my mom.



I DO avoid the situation of my landlord or any of my roommates ever meeting my girlfriends, but that is ONLY becuase I want to avoid the situation of my mom ever comming to town and they asking her "how is his girlfriend". I guess I might be a little too paranoid because she only visits me once in two months, but there is still a room for this to happen. In other words, I have no problem if other people know I am in a relationship as long as my mom doesn't.



Thats what I have been trying to tell to my girlfriends, but they aren't understanding it.



But the point is taht I am NOT ashamed of my mom. So, of course I can lie to get myself around it, but the point is that if I am innocent, as I believe I am, I would be able to prove it without having to lie.

Okay, may be you weren't suggesting that I lie but you were actually feeling I am in fact ashamed of my mom. In this case, this again raises a question of the definition of the word ashamed, and the possibility that I might in fact be ashamed "of my mom" but not realize it due to confused meaning of the word.

Another question that I have is that one of my ex-s was saying I was choosing my mom over her. So this raises yet another question, namely what is the definition of the word "attached". Because to me, I do NOT think I am attached to my mom. In fact, I would be happy to go the whole year without ever calling her. So, why would the wish to keep things from her imply that I am attached, if I know that I am not? Is it another example of a theory that I have suppressed feelings that I don't know about?



But you see, the point is that it has nothing to do with getting to know HER very well. It has nothing to do with HER what so ever. It has ONLY to do with me.

So that is a question of this whole thread. Am I right that it has nothing to do with her, or am I suppressing something? Because the way I think of it is that it has nothing to do with how well I know her. It has only to do with me and my mom. But, given the subject of the thread, I would like to ask whether the fact that I say it makes it so, or if perhaps there are things either I suppress, or else APPEAR to be dishonest about?

Why don't you just tell her the truth: You don't want your mother finding out that you have not devoted 110% of your time to studying.

It seems that you believe that your mother has you on a very short lease. If you are looking for serious relationships, you're going to have to take more responsibility for yourself, instead of letting your mother decide what you need to be doing with your time.

I don't think my mom wants me to study all the time. In fact, since my first year in high school untill I finish off college I was the one who was insisting that I HAVE to study as much as I can. I was taking a number of college level math and phsyics, including some upper division courses, while still in high school. I also took a number of graduate math and physics courses while in college. IT WAS ALL MY IDEA AND NOT MY MOM'S. IN FACT, MY MOM WAS THE ONE THINKING IT WAS A BAD THINK I NEVER HAD SPARE WEEKEND AND SHE WAS TRYING TO FORCE ME TO TAKE LESS COURSES, AND NOTHING WORKED. Appart from trying to get me to take less courses, she was also trying to get me to have break when i study, like occasionslly she would rent a movie. But it would be VERY hard to pull me off a chair.

Then what happened later is that when i was in graduate school I simply "ran into" social situations that hurt my feelings due to the fact that I was forced to feel inferior for having poor social skills. So from that point on I decided that I need to find a girl friend in order to refute my idea that everyone hates me by finding at least one person who doesn't.

Now, HERE IS THE THING BETWEEN ME AND MY MOM. You see, in the past my mom was the one who did NOT want me to study all day long, and I was the one insisting that I do. So I have a need to look CONSISTANT to other people. And, in light of that need, I won't find any way of explaining why I started looking for girlfriends all on my own, if I am the person whom my mom couldn't even get to have 15 minute walk?

So, you see, if my mom knows that I have CHANGED, this might cause her to decide I lost interest in school. It might also make her wonder what happened to CAUSE that change -- and I know that what happened was that I was hurt and I don't want to admit to her that. Finally, she would wonder whether or not UNTILL that change occured I was indeed truthful abotu wanting to study all day long or whether I was putting on a show. If she decides that i was putting on a show, how would I LOGICALLY justify it? You see, if my mom was the one who wanted me to study, then yes there is a logical reason for hiding it from her. But if she is the one who does NOT want me to study, then how can I LOGICALLY explain why I was hiding from her something she would HAPPY see me doing.

To make it all worse, I believe that this whole girlfriend business is one thing that contributted to my screwed up academic situation. It is bad enough that I am the same person who used to be several years AHEAD in my studies and now I am behind. Now, suppose my mom knows the whole girlfriend thing. Then SHE would be the one telling me that I shouldn't have been doing it, in light of her knowledge of my academic situation. Now, this ROLE SWITCHING is something I won't be able to handle. You see, if she was the person telling me I should study LESS, it would be unbearable to hear from her that I should study MORE. The way I am wired is that I can take criticism that I am USED TO. So if she will argue with me as to why I am taking too many classes, it won't hurt me a bit even if she will argue for two weeks straight about it. But if she switches a position to tell me I should study HARDER, then yes it would hurt me, even if it is just a hint.

People change. You have decided to change. And your mother might actually like that you have become interested in being social. Even if she criticizes you, it still just her opinion. Instead of feeling tied up when someone criticizes you, think about what they said and see how it applies to you, and how it applies to who you want to be. It's just an opinion, and a lot of opinions are wrong.

When you do that, then you can express why YOU feel that it's ok for you to do it. Responding to criticism is a social skill. Don't be afaid of it.

If you're interested in doing something for your mother, maybe you should invite her on a walk. If she makes a comment such as "I thought you didn't like walks.", just say that you wanted to spend time with her. That's how you turn criticism into something positive.

You need to learn how to balance your responsibilities and social time. Since social occasions can be spontainious, it helps to get as much of the work done at the earliest possible time. You might also consider reducing your workload. If you need a good reason to do so, just remember that social skills are very useful after college, when you're putting that degree to work.

Maybe your mom will be understanding. If she knows that you spend a lot of time studying, then meeting someone online makes sense because you can cut through a lot of the pointless social stuff.

I guess PEOPLE do change, but I was separationg myself from "people" because no one would study so much on the first place. So basically I had an image of myself in front of my family that was ingrained into my head for so many years, and I simply won't be able to deal with ruining that.




Yes, she WOULD like that I have become more social. But the point is that to me it isn't important whether or not my mom likes where I AM, but rather it is important that my mom likes whatever went on IN MY HEAD that BROUGHT ME to where I am. So, I don't mind if my mom knows I am with someone horrible, as long as there is a STORY of how we met. On the other hand, no matter how wonderful the person I am with, I would keep her from my mom if it is giong to reveal the fact that I have been online.

You see, if I am with a great person, yes my mom would be happy. But it won't be about me. It would be about that person. ON THE OTHER HAND, the fact that I have been online is strictly about ME. So, if I were online and I met someone wonderful, then my mom might think that I USED to be miserable, so I went online, and now I found someone wonderful that helped me out with that. But still the point is that I would at least admit to her that I USED to be miserable.

The point is that I want to hide from her that I have a CONCEPT of being lonely in order not to admit I have EVER felt that way. So YES, she WOULD be ahppy I am more sociable. So, if there is a way for her to know that I am more sociable WITHOUT her knowing that I have ever been lonely OR that I have ever been disracted from my studies, I would go for it.

Thats why it is important to come up with a story how me and my girlfriend met in a restaurant, I was all into my studies and SHE was the one who started talking to me. Also I ahve to encorporate into my story why I continued that conversation. So perhaps I should make up some story of her bringing some INTELLECTUAL subject that caught my itnerest and made me ask tons of questions. That would be consistant with the way I USED to be back in high school when I was asking people all kinds of questions.

Of course, once we did met and she triggered my interest, then yes I can change because I just tried something I never did before so no wonder I had new perspective. But you see, it has to be AFTER she started talking to me FIRST. Thats why I can't ever admit I found her online. Because in order for me to find someone online *I* have to be the one who made a profile, etc. But the story I want my mom to hear is that I haven't EVER thought I need anyone in my life, and the other person was the one who changed my mind.




1)The point is that someone's opinion is MORE important than the truth. Think of it this way. If somone is true, but no one knows about it, then it can always change. On the other hand, if someone has a particular opinion, their opinion would stay there.

2)In this particular case, if she criticises me, her opinion would indeed be RIGHT.



There is nothing to think about it in this situation because to me it is too OBVIOUS that I simply spent too much time online and I should have studied more. So I really don't have anything to learn from anyone criticising me in this area since I know it all by myself that I shouldn't have been doing it.



First of all, she won't be wrong because indeed I did spent too much time online. Secondly, even if she were wrong, like I said opinions are MORE important than facts. Facts change, but opinions tend to stay. Even if the opinion changes, still a person has memory so they at least can REMEMBEr it. But when fact changes, NOTHING remembers it if no one knows that fact, unless of course someone knows about it.



1)I do NOT feel it was okay for me to do it, it was an addiction

2)Yes I know how to respond to my mom's criticism. I have done it plenty of times when she was criticising me for studying too much, and I am doing it now with a NUMBER of other things. Whenever she assumes something about me that isn't true, I always tell her point blank and argue with her.

3)Part 2 only applies to the type of criticism I am USED to getting. Right now it is going to be something TOTALLY DIFFERENT. I am NOT used to my mom EVER telling me ONCE that I was lazy. So if I come across this kind of criticism, I simply would have a month of sleepless nights.



But the point is that I am NOT concerned over my mom thinking I am neglecting her in favor of someone else. Instead, I am concerned over her thinking that I am neglecting MY STUDIES. So basically, doing something for my mom is not going to solve the problem. It will only contribute to the problem because it would be one more thing on a list of my "inconsistencies".



She won't ask me this question. But the piont is that I would overanalize it and decide on my own that that is what she would be thinking. Since I have no way of finding out what she thinks, nothing would stop me from obsessing about it.



In my case, my issue is trying to RATIONALIZE it in terms of making it LOGICALLY consistant with the way I USED to be. So saying that I want to spend time with her doesn't help in these terms. The only way to deal with it is to come up with some crazy argument that I was going to ask questins to physics professor and for some obscure reasons I wanted her to be with me, and then all of a sudden the answer occured to me on my own so I didn't make it to the university. Like you see, it won't be a very believable story.



I agree. So, the fact that I am living in a different state from my mom makes it very easy to do because I can do it without my mom seeing it. But, just in case my mom ever visits me, I have to tell everyone I am socializing with that they have to pretend like they are my strangers whenever my mom is in town.

That might be true, but the point is that I have to start off from having a CONCEPT of wanting to meet someone, and the point is that I am trying to deny the fact that I have this concept.

You are a person, and you're not the only one who has been interested in deep study. You need to accept that it's futile to maintain an image for your family that is no longer valid. And at times detrimental. Don't think of it as ruining the image, but that you have out grown that image.



Have you always been lonely? Or is it a recent occurance that you have wanted a closer friendship than you have had before? When I was younger, I didn't try to get into relationships because I didn't want one. And I used all of the negative stereotypes as excuses. But I also wasn't ready; I was completely unaware of the emotional components.



It doesn't matter how you met. You wouldn't of got involved unless you wanted a relationship. Instead of focusing on what you did before you met, tell her the story of how you went from online to meeting in real life.



An addiction or new obsession? Do you continue to browse profiles even though you have a girlfriend? Or did you have an overwhelming urge to find someone special?

How old are you? I'm going to be 25 next month. I've spent over a year learning myself and changing who I am. All this because I decided that I wanted a girlfriend. Before last year, I had no interest is relationships.



I was just providing the walking as an example, but you did follow what I was saying. Who "owns" the list of inconsistencies? Part of growing up is realizing that you don't have to hide yourself from your family. I was surprised at how easily my parents accepted my true self. Even the illegal things like speeding and dui (yeah, I know, I'm a bad, bad person). It was akward at first, but I got used to not having a fake son image. But use tact. There are probably somethings you shouldn't talk about. But that depends on your relationship with your mom and your mother's view on things.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I went to the tour to Israel so I didn't have a chance to get on the computer for any long period of time untill now, when I finally came back from the trip. Either way, I think your questions are very important and might help me to see things more clearly. So here are the responses to what you wrote:

I guess the point is that I have no control over this part. It is kind of like in math it all depends what axioms you start with. What your priorities are is basically an axiom. You see, suppose you want A. You are asked why do you want A? And you say it is because of B. And then you are asked why do you want B? And you say because of C. And you go on and on, and then at some point it has to stop. Let say it stops on Z. So Z is your axiom of what you want just because it is your "goal of life" so to speak. So you don't want Z for the sake of anything else. You just want it for the sake of Z. So that is the whole image business is for me at the moment.



Up untill 2001, I didn't think I needed any friends let alone relationships because tehse will be "waste of time" as far as studies are concerned. My SOLE criteria for success was how well I do academically. More specifically, how many years am I ahead of the program. So basically I felt sorry for people who have friends. Becuase even if they are ahead, they should feel a little bit guilty that IF they were to study during whatever time they were spending with their friends, they would be even further. On the other hand, since I don't have friends I know I have done my very best so I have nothing to feel sorry about.

In light of the fact that I didn't want frineds, I never had a chance to see that I weren't capable of having them even if I did want them. So I kept assumming that I have perfect ability to be friends with anyone I want, and this whole thing is just my choice.

However, it all changed in a year 2001. First, in Spring 2001 I was joining mailing list for people with Asperger's and I got banned basically due to the fact that my intention was to "study" autism instead of socializing. A long time AFTER being banned I realized how much I was missing. Then I decided to go to Jewish club on campus in order for it to "replace" what I was missing in a mailing list. Actually my mom was pushing me to go there much earlier but I kept saying no because of the studies, but this mailing list thing forced me to say yes. So then when I went there, it only made me feel even worse because I didn't know how to have conversation going. So it was the first time I realize that I actually don't KNOW how to make friends as opposed to CHOOSE not to make them. So then I basically felt so hurt that I decided to go to dating site in order to find at least one person who won't hate me in order to prove the idea that everyone hates me wrong. But then again it mostly led to frustration since my Asperger would shine through so well that most people would stop talking to me after I just say hi.

I didn't even dream of having a relationship, because why would anyone CHOOSE me over everyone else. The most I was hopping for was friendship. My first ex, Sarah, made a first move in a relationship which was a huge surprise for me, and we stayed together between 2003 and 2004. So after breaking up with her, I at least began to consider actually trying to get into relationship with others. So between 2004 and 2005 I was thinking like "firendship is good and relationship is even better". This changed, however, in 2005 when I was friends with Anne who didn't want to have a relationship. At that point I simply asked myself what was the difference between friendship verses relatinoship anyway given that on the other hand I don't believe in pre-marital sex, and on the other hand with friendship we were as close as relationship ever get. My only answer was that she didn't want to "give me credit" by simply doing all the "relationship" things without calling it a relationship. So this made it feel like a form of humiliation so from that point on I was looking exclusively for a relationship.

The bottom line is that this is all a chain reaction that started from that one mailing list back in Feburary 2001, that was ran by Clare Seinsbury and that was "University students with asperger syndrome". This one mailing list have ruined my life for the next 5 years.




But I want to say that my girlfriend is the one who influenced me to want a relatinoship. I mean there are a number of nice things she can do to make me reconsider what I was feeling. I basically want to deny the fact that I developed a wish for relationship on my own. As long as I can say that someone else has influenced me I feel a lot better.



But you see, my mom knows I met my ex online, and I broke up with my ex in 2004. So it is easy to deduce that I have stayed online between 2004 and now, which would be two years. And this is too much to admit. 2 years is not one or two weeks.



No, I don't continue to brouse profiles. HOWEVER, my internet addiction continues as far as browsing religous sites goes. Baiscally, I have internet addiction in general. So, the dating site thing had helped it to develop. Now, dating site is out of the picture, but internet addiction stays.




I basically have a need for acceptance. I know others would tell me that this is what friends are for. But on the example of Anne I have seen how being a close friend without being a boyfriend can have humiliation component to it. So consequently, I just want to be in a relationship and that is the only way I can feel accepted.



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So what happened that changed your mind?



Okay, back on the subject. Even if you think it is wrong to keep things from my family, do you think it implies in any way that I am ashamed of my girlfriends? From my perspective, like you said it is about "grouwing up", which means it is about ME and not about THEM. So when my ex-s were telling me I was ashamed of them, do you think they misunderstood me, or do you think I am misunderstanding myself or don't fully reawlize all the subconscious thoughts in my head?

If someone asks, just say 'cuz you want to. If they keep asking why, which is very rude, tell them to go pound sand.

Do you really know people who are that interested in you? Most people get disinterested when someone goes into that much detail.



Friendship is a type of relationship. The exact definition of boyfriend/girlfriend depends on what the couple decides. Usually, it involves trust, intimacy, commitment, and sex (presently, or planned; kissing usually counts). There are also relationships without all 4 of those, and most have names. For example, a relationship without commitment would be a "fling".



Don't get caught up on semantics. Worrying about what you have, and trying to force change will usually alienate the other participants. You have to let relationships grow on their own. Investing into it is the only thing you can do.



Unless she brainwashed you, the decision is all yours. She just helped you see what you were missing out on. Instead of worrying about it, just accept you new view on it.



What constitutes an addiction? Maybe your deep studying is an addiction. I agree it's a problem if it interferes with your education. The web surfing is not to blame. You simply don't have a lot of experience managing your time. Since you want a life besides 100% of the time devoted to studying, this is an important skill to have. There are a lot of methods, you'll have to find one that works for you.



It that to say you can't be close friends with someone of the opposite sex without having sex? Have you ever had a best friend of the same sex? It's a completely different experience that being friends. It's when you both know the other person feels the same way you do. There's also relationships with unreciprocated feelings; when you have those, you need to be careful to not overstep boundaries.



I made out with a girl (not girlfriend) on our second date. That was when I learned what all the mushy kissing crap was all about. We broke up a few days later. A mutual friend had set us up, but we both accepted that we didn't have anything in common.



Yes, it implies that you are ashamed of your girlfriends. Are you really ashamed; yes, but indirectly. You need to be confident in yourself.

If you found a Jewish website that your mother would really be interested in seeing, would you hide it from her? Because that would imply that you were surfing, instead of studying. Seriously, does your mother expect you to spend 100% of your time studying? Do you expect yourself to make sure everything you do is pleasing to your mother?

When will you allow yourself to be your own person and not worry about what other people think?




Don't take this to far and use it as an excuse to neglect hygiene, be rude, dress like a transient, avoid fitting in, etc.

Being social involves courtesy AND assertiveness.

Actually, the contect of what I wrote was my trying to explain to you why I have to hide things from my mom. I was trying to tell you that it is an AXIOM that I have to hide things from her. And this means that I feel a need to do it even if there is no good reason to.





In this case, can you explain to me why what me and Anne had was NOT a relaitonsip? To me, it seems like we were very close. We were studying together every day. She kept asking about the little things of how I feel, and sharing her own frustrations about otehr people who can't understand her. She was also cooking for me every day. She even offered to go to California with me when I went to visit my mom (when I told her I keep her from my mom she still wanted to go to California just to share plane with me and then to stay with her friends). She also considered staying over the summer in Michigan in order to study together in the library with me (but it fell through as a result of the fact that I acted angry because of the LJBF which eventually led her to want to avoid me altogether).

So, the question is this: if the difference between relationship and friendship is based on what couple DECIDES, then I don't see why what me and Anne had weren't a relationship. My only answer is to say that relatioship has NOTHING to do with what couple decides, but instead it has to do with what WORDS a couple choses. And then if I am going to ask what is a point of deciding between two different words if we are going to do the same thing anyway, the only answer I can think of is that words are needed to "give me credit" for being a "boyfriend" (i.e. a "champion"). And once I am lead to reach this conclusion, I would naturally feel humiliated for the fact that I am not considered a "boyfriend".



In my case, I don't believe in pre-marital sex. So that is one more reason why I am saying that relationship verses friednship has nothing to do with what couple decides. You see, if I did want sex, there would be concrete reason for the difference between friend and boyfriend. But, since I do NOT want sex, I simply don't see any difference between these two titles. So the question is, if all the girls I am in contact with KNOW that I am NOT looking for sex, then why are they bothering between the difference between the two names? THE ONLY ANSWER I CAN COME UP WITH IS THAT THEY WORRY ABOUT THESE WORDS IN ORDER TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO "GIVE ME CREDIT" JUST FOR A HELL OF IT. Just like we give Kasparov credit for CALLING HIM chess champion, girls give boys credit by CALLING THEM boyfriends.



Actually it is the other way around. I haven't been worried about semantics untill I met Anne. But after I did meet her, I have noticed that SHE was worried about semantics. For me, I totally disagree with semantics being important. In fact, this is the very thing I find offensive. Therefore, when I have noticed how OTHER PEOPLE worry about semantics I became so offended at the concept that I became obsessed with it.




Even if she helped me to see soemthing I was missing, this would still provide a LOGICAL link between past and present. Thats why it is crucial that my mom thinks that SOMEONE ELSE helped me to see something I was missing instead of my seeing it on my own. Because if I were to tell my mom that I see it on my own, how would I explain to her why I didn't see it in the past?




Addiction is something that you would rather NOT do but you can't help it. So my studies are not an addiction because if I will decide to take a break, I would have no problem doing it. Of course, I mgiht not neceserely make such decision, and this would be a bad judgement. But bad judgement and addiction are different things.

In case of internet, even if I really want to stop using it, I can't. So that is where it is an addiction. Even if I am wrong in saying I should stop using internet, it is still the case that if I decide to stop doing it, I won't be able to. So thats an addiction.



The point is that if I am in front of computer, I can look at the watch and say "okay I spent long enoguh time, now it is time to get up". But I won't be able to do it. I will keep giving myself few more minutes over and over again indefinitely. So it isn't a time managing skills at all. It is an addiction. Internet is the only thing where this happends.




Like I said, I DON"T BELIEVE IN PRE-MARITAL SEX.

So, thats why I keep asking what is the difference between close friend and a relatinoship? If I don't have sex anyway, I don't see a CONCRETE difference. Therefore, my mind is forced to fill in a gap and say that the point of a word "relationship" is to give someone a credit for "conquest". Such conclusion would naturally imply that a word "friend" would give someone a negative credit to acknowledge their "defeat" which would naturally be humiliating.



If relationship is about feelings, then how come people make a DECISION of whom they want to be in a relationship with. You can't decide what to feel, unless you take some mind altering substance.

So, this leads me to say that relationship is a DECISION and not feeling. BUT the decision is BASED on feelings. But then the question is why would it be important to DECIDE to be "in a relationship" with someone whom you love as opposed to someone you don't love? I guess one answer is that you don't want to have sex with someone you don't love. But since I don't believe in premarital sex, sex is out of the picture. The otehr answer is that you don't want to spend too much time together with someone you don't love. But the thing is that myself and Anne DID spend a lot of time together. So, what else can it be? The only thing I can see is that if you are in love with someone, you would want to give them credit for being "capable" of making you love them, and you call them "champion" (insert "boyfriend" here).



But how am I ashamed of my girlfriends if my surfing the net has nothing to do with them? I am ashamed of the fact that *I* spent so much time online. So how does it have to do with THEM?



A couple of years ago I have been on jdate.com which is Jewish website, and I was hiding it from my mom as well.



She doesn't -- in fact in the past she spent a lot of effort to force me NOT to do it, but it didnt' work. However, I want to be CONSISTANT in my mother's eyes. So if my mom wanted me to do somethign other than studying and it never worked, and now all of a sudden I did somethign other than studying ON MY OWN, this is a huge inconsistancy. So she will think something must have happened for me to change taht way.



Like I said it isn't about pleasing but more about being consistant.

Maybe the 3rd time is a charm. My attempts to respond to your statements and questions have led me to believe that you have a severe lack of understanding of relationships. Of course, I only remember a little of how ignorant I used to be.

You are in the dark; and you don't even know it.

Have you done any research? I suggest that you put your internet addiction and deep studying to use and visit wikipedia.org. Look up every thing to do with love, relationships, dating, courtship, platonic love, sex, abstinence, anatomy, affection, reciprocation of love, etc. Several man days of reading and several months of learning about yourself is in order.

You seem to be fairly religious. I suggest that you do some reading on you're own. Don't assume anything you have been told is true. You need to interpret everything for yourself.

It's not called giving credit. It's about expressing how YOU feel. And you can't force someone to feel a certain way. Note, you may think you feel a certain way, but your inexperience will fool you.

Check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

Has she ever told you how she feels about you?

If might me best to keep your feelings on the DL and continue being her guyfriend.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=guyfriend

What are your goals in life?

Do you have a plan for obtaining your goals?

Can you tell me what does this expression mean?



I DO know that I am totally confused about relationships. But the point is that it doesn't stop my mind from trying to "fill in blanks". So, once I did fill all the blanks, I can see how a lot of it sounds silly. But again, due to the fact that I am so confused, I am forced to believe in it no matter how silly it sounds, untill I know some better explanation, which I don't. So this is why i keep asking ppl. If I dind't think I was confused I won't be posting these things. The reason I post is that I KNOW I am confused so I want someone to refute my theories and tell me what the real deal is.



Well, first of all I was overanalyzing the things that happened between me and the particular women I encountered. And other than that I was reading dating tips where they taught me the whole thing about "nice guys finish last", and I also did some google searches on LJBF. But neither dating tips nor the LJBF related pages would analyze the LOGIC behind it the way I do -- they simply state things and take it for granted that a reader will answer all the how-s and why-s. So this only gives me more chances to fill out gaps in my own way which basically means boost already existing confusion that I have.

On any event, you are right in that I havne't done actual "research" because I havne't been looking up any of the things you told me to look up. Plus I havne't looked at encyclopedias, I only looked at websites. So you are right I should study more on it.



Good idea. I will definitely do that.



What does the expression "man days" mean?



Okay, imagine the following scenario. Two strangers pass by each other. A man feels attracted to a woman, which he doesn't express because she is a stranger. It just HAPPENDS (coincidence) that a woman is also attracted to a man. Again, she says nothing because he is a stranger. So they pass by each other and don't see each other any more. Now, according to YOUR definition, they are "in a relationship" because they both are attracted to each other. So this shows that your definition si wrong.

Let me give you another example. Suppose a man is attracted to two different women, and both of them are attracted to him. So, are you saying that he is a cheater because he is "in a relationship" with both of them? The reason people don't cheat is that they DECIDE not to enter into multiple reltionships DESPITE their feelings. So, again, relationship is a DECISION, not a feeling.



Thanks for bringing it up. Actually, this was somethign I was originally intending to discuss in this thread. Remembner, how in my original post I was confused as to how I can be "ashamed" of my girlfriends despite the fact that I don't think of it as being ashamed? So basically, this can be generalized into a question of how you can feel something without knowing what you feel or visa versa. So can you explain to me how is it possible?

The other example of such a thing is a statement that I can't love someone unless I am happy with myself first. Again I don't get it. To me it is just the opposite. The LESS I am happy with myself, the MORE I need an emotional support from other people, and thus I can fall in love with them more easilly.




Okay, here is her rejection letter:








It isn't relevent any more because we haven't been talking for a year. What happened was that as a result of the rejection I started acting out in various ways and eventually I alliented her to the point that she stopped contact with me.



I want to be a theoretical physicist and try to rewrite modern physics in a way that it makes more sense philosophically. So, the way I go about obtaining the goal is that I am a graduate student in physics at the University of Michigan. So I will get ph.d. in 2 years and then hopefully i will find a post doc position somewhere and eventually become a professor.

That post was my 3rd attempt at responding to you.

It's not that it sounds silly. It's difficult to respond when your questions are confused. The problem has to do with your word usage.

Here's the catch about websites and encyclopedias.

Dating tips 15-35% accurate. Remember, they're always selling something.
Google 10-90% accurate. Anyone could have wrote that webpage. And sites for profit will tend to be at the top.
Wikipedia 50 to 95% accurate. Luckily there are people out there that don't have the heads stuck up their asses.

With any information source, including people you trust, take what you learn with a grain of salt. Humans are notorious for believing incorrect ideas. And, there are cases of multiple truths, which may not be compatible with each other. You have to figure out what feels right to YOU.

Here's the deal with "nice guys". Gentlemen respect women. Pushovers disrespect themselves. If you put a woman up high on a pedestal and sacrifice yourself for her comfort, this princess that you have created will look down upon you and see you for what you are, a Lowly Peasant.

Yeah, getting the door is romantic. Being obsessed about it is disturbing. Letting her pick a restaurant you hate will kill the relationship. Not being assertive, e.g. not standing up and being a man, is a deal breaker.

Jerks. There are a few guys who are screwed up and will end up in jail. And there are a few women who can't help themselves but continue getting into abusive relationships. They need professional help.

Obscene flirting. Flirting isn't a one size fits all. It must be custom tailored to the person who's receiving it. When you think to yourself "I wish I could talk like that to woman.", you're forgetting something important. Most flirting isn't that dirty. You just notice it because it's so scandalous. Most flirting that occurs is friendly.

Woman are interested in being friends, not fsck buddies. Here's the catch-22. If you want something from a relationship, you won't get it. If you aren't trying, you'll get it whether you won't it or not. And that applies to more that just sex.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-hour

They have an attraction for each other. No relationship exists. If one got the other's attention, and both were willing get aquatinted, they might started a relationship. That would be an new friendship. If they kept in touch, had common interest, and were "compatible", the relationship would have grown. If they're both single, and "feelings" developed, they may end up dating. After a few dates, if they both like where it's going, they may become boyfriend/girlfriend.

When I say relationship, I'm using the broad definition. On the other hand you are using the narrow definition, which is the romantic definition. But you can't be romantic until you're married.

When you say you don't believe in pre-marital sex, are you including all sexual contact? Or do you intend to maintain at a minimum a state of technical virginity until marriage?

You can decide whether or not you want to be in relationship (broad definition). And the type of relationship you would like (acquaintances, friends, close friends, romantic, etc.). Another way of looking at it: you choose the type of relationship your willing to be in. This is not deciding what you feel.

Cheating. This has less to do about sex and more to do about emotions. If you don't know that your girlfriend expects you to only be intimate with her, then you have some problems. If you can't help yourself, then you have self control problems.

Come to think of it. If you feel that you must nail every piece of hot ass that you can, you have a very objective view of woman. And you will have many, many problems maintaining relationships.

Inexperience. Stick you hands in a bowl of ice water for 15 minutes. Then rinse them off under the cold tap. If you didn't know better, you would think that you're feeling scolding hot water. The ability to decern comes from good judgement and experience.



Relationships (broad definition) are not developed out of need. Like I said above, if you want something, you won't get it. You may very well be in need of support. But think about what a stranger sees: someone who is desperate for contact. And when they see that, they are going to think "why is he desperate". The answer, "he must have a problem maintaining relationships".

If you need support, get it from someone you already know. Like your mother. You need to address the problems in your life too. Meeting new people doesn't fix your problems; it just distracts you from your problems. You need to either change something in your environment, or change your perception.

You can learn ALOT from that girl. Don't do anything stupid like run her off.


Are you doing it to be nice, or because you care? Do nice things is a good way to show affection. But if you're being nice because you value her more than yourself, then you've got a problem.



If you fsck your relationship up, I will personally hunt you down and beat you to a blood pulp with the stupid stick!! !



Don't' pamper her. And assertive yourself.



That wasn't a rejection letter.
I agree with her. She is very wise.

You are very lucky. You need to get your head out of you ass. Drop the whole "call me boyfriend" thing and appreciate what you have. Is she your girlfriend? No. Are you two close? Yes.

When you say you want a "relationship", you're the only one who doesn't realize that you want to get married. And you're not ready for that.

You have a lot to learn and grow as a person. Be patient and open minded.



You dumb ass. *Mike beats Roman to a bloody pulp* Do me a favor. Walk over to the nearest wall and nod you head against it while repeating "stupid, stupid, stupid".

Are you at risk for depression? You might want to look up the symptoms on Wikipedia.

Someday, when you understand, and if you're really lucky, you may be able to get in touch with her again. And if you're really really lucky, she'll want to be your friend again. And if your that lucky, and manage not to fsck it up a 2nd time...

Well, don't worry about it. You need to focus on getting your Ph.D.

I still want to be a theoretical physicist, among other things. But I never had my life in enough order to be successful at college.