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Roman
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12 Apr 2012, 10:15 am

I remember back in 2005 the girl invited me to a church as a first date -- she was devoted Christian and so am I. Now, once at a church, I was doing physics during the service. As a result, she lost interest. I tried to beg her to give me a second chance by claiming that "I did physics only because of a certain deadline but I won't do that from now on". Now, she didn't directly respond to that; instead she said that she is not dating just for fun but is looking for marriage. I told her yes I am looking for marriage too, and I will do all the self improvement I need to do long term. She simply said that its her decision whom to date and thats it.

Now, here is an interesting thing. Even though I told her I was looking for marriage back in 2005, whenever I was actually FACED with other girls wanting to marry me later on, it always scared me away. Now I didn't know I had that fear of marriage. In fact I remember that back in 2003 I was pushing a certain girl to agree to marry me. Yet, in 2009, when I was faced with the actual situation, it scared the hell out of me. On the other hand that girl in a church in 2005 KNEW I wasn't looking for marriage ........ all because of such an irrelevancy as my studying physics in church!

This brings me to ask the following question. Could it be that the hoops that women want men to jump through are actually "tests" on whether or not the man in question will be willing to marry her? In other words could it be that if a man on the back of his mind intends to marry this will, unconsciously, change the way he acts and would enable him to "naturally" jump through the hoops without even making any conscious effort to; but if the man does not intend to marry then jumping through hoops will become a challenge he would have to put lots of conscious effort to, and would inevitably screw up sooner or later?

One other thing that makes me think along these lines is that some of the women who rejected me in the past were telling me that it was ME who didn't like THEM, and I was like "what? If I didn't like you why would I be obsessing about you this very second?" Could it be that what they meant by my not liking them was that I would not want to marry them, and the way they knew it was by the fact that I failed their "intent to marry test"?



mushroo
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12 Apr 2012, 10:38 am

I used to think relationships were about a series of "steps" and if you played by the "rules" then the girl/boy would like you and you'd live happily ever after together.

I now realize this is not true: relationships are about mutual attraction, chemistry, and working together toward shared goals.

If the girl doesn't like you then following "the rules" will not "make her" like you; if the girl does like you, then you can likely break one or more "rules" and she will still like you just fine.

Every successful long-term couple I know has at least one humorous story about a situation, early on in the relationship, where one of them broke the rules and did something embarrassing or absurd. Rather than destroy the relationship, these "mistakes" become part of the mythology of the relationship.

Look at any romantic comedy movie. There is always a situation where the couple has a misunderstanding, or failure to communicate, or difference of opinion--and then over the course of the next hour-and-a-half, they work through it and fall in love, because the attraction cannot be denied. :)



Roman
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12 Apr 2012, 10:44 am

mushroo wrote:
I used to think relationships were about a series of "steps" and if you played by the "rules" then the girl/boy would like you and you'd live happily ever after together.

I now realize this is not true: relationships are about mutual attraction, chemistry, and working together toward shared goals.

If the girl doesn't like you then following "the rules" will not "make her" like you; if the girl does like you, then you can likely break one or more "rules" and she will still like you just fine.

Every successful long-term couple I know has at least one humorous story about a situation, early on in the relationship, where one of them broke the rules and did something embarrassing or absurd. Rather than destroy the relationship, these "mistakes" become part of the mythology of the relationship.

Look at any romantic comedy movie. There is always a situation where the couple has a misunderstanding, or failure to communicate, or difference of opinion--and then over the course of the next hour-and-a-half, they work through it and fall in love, because the attraction cannot be denied. :)


I guess what you said is true regarding the couple of girls that DID become my long term girlfriends, but it seems to contradict my experience about much larger number of girls. I remember a series of girls who liked me A LOT, so I let my guard down, made a mistake, and ooops they don't like me any more. So are you saying that these girls didn't like me to begin with, and it was misinterpretation on my part when I THOUGHT they first liked me (even though this consisted of 30 emails a day, several hours of chats, suggestions of cooking for me and doing other things, and in some cases the explicit statements that they liked me)?



mushroo
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12 Apr 2012, 10:59 am

I think that forgiveness is an important part of true love, and the happy married couples I know cut each other a certain amount of slack. :)

I do not know "the mistake" you made or why these women "stopped liking" you--did you ask them? If they broke up with you over an innocent mistake, that does not seem very Christian to me. (But judging them would not be very Christian of me! ;))

Also I think that the period of dating before marriage is a trial period, either party can walk away at any time for any reason, there is no commitment or "till death do us part" until the ring is on the finger.



Roman
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12 Apr 2012, 11:44 am

mushroo wrote:
I do not know "the mistake" you made or why these women "stopped liking" you--did you ask them?


Here is one of many examples: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt5922.html
Just to warn you, when I read it from where I sit right now a lot of what I did looks pretty pathetic. But I didn't realize it back then when I was in the situation. In fact, back then it appeared to me that I had best intentions with few ooops-s standing on a way. I guess it is probably related to theory of mind issues that aspies have.

mushroo wrote:
If they broke up with you over an innocent mistake, that does not seem very Christian to me. (But judging them would not be very Christian of me! ;))


Not all of them were Christian. Yes the girl at the church was Christian; but the one in the link I just cited was atheist.

mushroo wrote:
Also I think that the period of dating before marriage is a trial period, either party can walk away at any time for any reason, there is no commitment or "till death do us part" until the ring is on the finger.


I understand this. I was simply responding to your statement "if they like you, they will continue to like you even after you made mistakes"; so I pointed out the examples when this is not the case.



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12 Apr 2012, 12:18 pm

mushroo hit the nail on the head. a 'test' implies that there is a predetermined set of expectations that need to be fulfilled in order to succeed, but it doesn't work that way. much is forgiven (up to a point) when two people really want to be together. doing physics in church sounds a bit rude, so i am surprised the girl didn't just tell you that.


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DogsWithoutHorses
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13 Apr 2012, 10:56 am

"women" as a group are not doing anything, not testing, not setting up hoops to be jumped through or whatever. We're individuals, kinda like how you're an individual. Any attempts to speculate *our* motives is inherently flawed because there is no collective womanhood to speculate on.
"Are these examples of women in my life testing me" - maybe



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13 Apr 2012, 11:46 am

Well, it is possible that women test men, even subconsciously. And for that matter, men would test women as well. The key word is "subconsciously", although everyone is different, and there is people who actually do that sort of tests. A friend of mine, male, tests his girlfriends, to the point it seems a bit unhealthy for me in the long run.


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edgewaters
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15 Apr 2012, 8:15 am

Roman wrote:
One other thing that makes me think along these lines is that some of the women who rejected me in the past were telling me that it was ME who didn't like THEM, and I was like "what? If I didn't like you why would I be obsessing about you this very second?"


Well, you can like the relationship without much interest in the actual person. That's basically what an infatuation is. It's liking the *idea* of being with the other person, rather than the other person directly. Usually the person is idealized as well, with mistaken ideas about them projected onto them.



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20 Apr 2012, 11:30 am

I don't test people. It seems odd to me that women are supposed to do it. I get really annoyed when I see that happening in movies. It's as if they were indirectly saying that there's something wrong with me because I don't do it. It's also like "women know everything about fashion and relationships". It's just not true. Obviously, if women are told often enough that this is what they should do, they do it.


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20 Apr 2012, 11:56 am

I think @Shatbat is right on the subconscious aspect. People just ain't aware of what they really do! So if you ask them, you get the answer of what conscious brain thinks it does ..

It seems many aspies are more aware of what's going because they have to consciously think about continuously. Which also why said group becomes tired of social interactions.

Groups of people tend to do similar things. That's the simple truth. The more complex one is that there are variations within the group and different probabilities of different outcomes. So a group can be characterized on an group level, but only as a higher probability of certain behaviors. Not that person X belonging to group Y will do Z.



hyperlexian
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20 Apr 2012, 12:48 pm

people aren't just imaging what they think they are doing, Keyman. people are able to recall their own actual actions in a given situation, which speaks volumes.


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24 Apr 2012, 2:02 am

Most women test potential mates. However there is a difference between testing, and psychological game playing.

Testing is benign and usually subtle. When a woman tests a man, she is really just trying to determine his boundaries and how he might react in certain situations because she has to choose her mate carefully. Women might also test men as a means to get to know them better when they feel the man doesn't explicitly communicate a sufficient amount of information that is pertinent to her.

It's important to note that these aren't always tests in the sense that they can be passed or failed. Especially if the point of the test is to just determine boundaries. In most instances, the man doesn't even perceive he is being tested.

Psychological game playing is different. The object is one of power. To assert and exercise control over one's mate. The game is almost always stressful and upsetting to the unwitting participant, and might even be emotionally hurtful as the aggressor is intentionally being difficult.



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24 Apr 2012, 4:25 am

If people are going to be making blanket assertions about the behavior of half the population I want to see some evidence, meaning well done, peer reviewed studies. Anecdotes/personal experience are not enough to vouch for the behavior of all or even most women. I sincerely doubt anyone has had the time/inclination to meet most of the women in the world.
If you want to say something is true, prove it.


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beezy
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24 Apr 2012, 5:02 am

A number of different dating coaches touch on this and they obviously don't all know each other.. so it seems like there's something in it. Check YouTube.



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24 Apr 2012, 7:38 am

beezy wrote:
A number of different dating coaches touch on this and they obviously don't all know each other.. so it seems like there's something in it. Check YouTube.


I you want to say something, the burden of proof is on you, not your reader.


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