Why do we have to do all the work?

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The man has to make the first move. The man has to drive the woman to the date. The man has to pay for everything. The man has to empress the woman. WTF?! !!
Us men have to have all these accomplishments (financial success, military service, fancy cars, etc...), while everything a woman needs to attract a man's attention, she was born with.
How about, for a change, we sit back and relax, and make the women have to do some work? How about all you ladies out there actually do something to prove to us that you are worthy of our time an attention for once?

This is from a time when women were to be seen and not heard. After women became equal with men, they still didn't have to give up their former benefits.

The fact that there are slightly more men than women below 50 helps to maintain this standard.

The sooner you stop seeing it as work the easier things become. Dating is supposed to be fun. And if you don't see it as fun but a mission objective of Independence Day or Armageddon proportions girls are likely to read that from you and make you feel inclined to do this "work", because you've given them the impression you are in a position where you have to work for them and not the other way round.

I don't go with any girls that insist I pay all the time, but out of courtesy I pay most of the time, and they pay when I can't, or we go halves. If I ever do go on dates it's nearly 50/50. And I believe that is simply down to things like what I write in dating profiles, my wording in conversations, and the types of girls I go for. Maybe you are trying to impress women that aren't suited to you.

That's one of the early deal breakers for me. I don't have a problem paying if I've asked a girl out, but after that, if they don't at least offer, then there's a problem. The last girl I dated, I excused myself and went and paid with my card, came back and sat down to finish my drinks and asked if she'd like to shoot on elsewere, she got her purse out, but I said it was already taken care of, to which she said it wasn't fair of me and I replied that she could get the next one. She said 'right, you're on' and we went to an empty pub and made out for an hour or two after chatting at length about The Wire.

This is a great response. It's not work. If you enjoy her company, most of that stuff should come naturally. Think of her as a new friend that you really want to get to know better, and if you are attracted to her, don't hide it. (unless it's drooling lust, in which case save it for the bedroom)

Well I am asexual so what I say here could be more or less irrelevant, I am not opposed to dating though...but they'd have to be cool with no sex, so obviously I'd have to find an asexual dude to date if I wanted to date.

Anyways that said...I think whoever has the money at the time should pay, or taking turns is good, I don't have a car so if they didn't have one and we had to take the bus i can't hold them not having a car against them. And financial success? Also at this point I don't expect much financial success for myself so I certainly would not expect it of someone else, unless they are in fact more capable of it. But when am I going to be hanging out with financially successful people on a regular basis don't think that's my fish bowl?

But seriously if I am interested I certainly don't expect them to do all the work...even with my close friend who I am not dating, though we do joke about it I have no problem cleaning his house or helping with stuff like that. Also I hope most males are not only attracted to the female body, some of us have brains in our skulls as well...I mean wouldn't you prefer a female who has some similar interests and interesting things to say rather then someone that's all looks.

Last edited by Sweetleaf on 26 May 2012, 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Indeed, WTF? Where are you dating, the 1940s?

Seriously, I do all of those things listed above, and then some. And I'm a woman who's been dating on and off for over 30 years.

I don't think, even in the typical scenario, that women are as anywhere near as passive as they seem to be. They do a whole lot of very subtle work. What looks like them sitting and doing nothing ... I think sometimes they are actually meeting you halfway, having put all kinds of not very visible effort into things. It's more that (sometimes) they expect the man's half to be most of the visible and bolder stuff, because we tend to be unaware of (let alone capable of) the work that goes into setting the scene, so to speak. But they don't actually let on about all this very much, because they want the guy to feel like he's in control of the situation so that he can do the other stuff. It doesn't work for me because I can't do that stuff, and anyway, the illusion is sort of broken for me. I don't know exactly what they're doing or when they're doing it but I can readily see there's a whole lot happening backstage.

Theater actually seems to be a good analogy. You're expected to put a show on, on the stage, but by that point they've already built the theatre and the set and you've just walked onto it, without really realizing it's there.

Theres nothing that says that you have to do all that.

You want to ask someone out go right ahead but most people will expect you to pay regardless of their gender.
If she is the one that suggests the meeting try to suggest her to pay in a joking matter.
ie: We can set a date if you want to but I´ll have you know that Im not that cheap.
Or something along those lines.

If you are tired of approaching women nobody is making you do it as far as I know so feel free to take a break/whatever and see what happens.


As another user has pointed out the minute you start seeing the approaching as work you arent doing it right.
Some people suggest seeing it as a challenge(I have to show myself that I can do this) other people suggest that you do it in a way that you are enjoying it(you approach them in a somewhat fun manner/you have a laugh and you talk for a few minutes,it didnt work but it made her smile...) and you have to find which way of approaching works best for you(some people dont approach anyone, they are aware they are taking a risk but they dont see a need to change their approach because they are happy about not having to do any approaching)

I'm with you on this. I get quite disgusted watching how the girls play the guys at most bars, and admittedly, the guys that are being turned on by that crap aren't the kind of guys I would go for anyway. I no longer look for a dating partner at a bar for this reason, but I will go to a bar with someone I am already dating.


Interesting assessment. You might be on to something there.


That's actually how I prefer it. It's so much easier than having to try and split the bill up. An ex-dating friend of mine with whom I now only have platonic dinner dates won't go to dinner with me because he feels bad for owing me like two or three dinners. I still guilt him into going by telling him that surely he can sit there and let me at least buy him a soda or a beer so that he can do me the pleasure of keeping me company. He has no excuse for turning down a drink.


To galvatron:
I'm still reminded, though, that it's usually the male of most animal species that has to put on the show. I'm honestly not sure why this is. Personally, I prefer an equal balance. I want to be proud of my partner and I want my partner to be proud of me, because it should be a partnership in every sense of the word. I always prefer it when it feels like you are equally giving to one another, instead of one giving and one taking, or both taking, as I've seen of some relationship dynamics that had my head spinning.

Find better girls to date. I promise you they are out there and very much worth finding.

Last edited by NicoleG on 26 May 2012, 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, dividing a bill up isn't cool.

The whole approaching thing is enough bs that should have been gone long ago, but most women insist on it being so. And for paying ive noticed when i go to a restaurant with my roomate Im always handed the bill. Always. Even when she asked for it. And they give me a terrible look when i hand it to her.

It's not so much a risk, it's a question of the fact that there's still a strategy to it. Women have had thousands of years of practice and a man can never be even nearly as good at it, but I've had partial success in my life with a few basic understandings.

First and probably most important, the passive person is actually the one in control, because they have the power to reject, and the leading person is vulnerable because they're the ones to expose themselves and go out on a limb. That means you need to reduce the risk if you ever want to be approached - if you come across as judgemental, for instance, or if you're the sort to tell everyone about everything, that means the risk level is high and it's a barrier for anyone wanting to approach. So obviously you have to be less judgemental and be the sort of person that can be trusted to keep things in confidence. Basically it's not something you can do on the spur of the moment, its a life decision, and you have to base your personal growth around it - and accept that you aren't going to be as succesful as those who master the standard social model (ie the guy taking the lead).

Second, you have to reciprocate - its like a dance, you can't just stand there even if the other person is leading. Whatever risks they take you have to follow and take the same risks, or at the very least, be seen to try to. Or to use a different analogy - sonar can't work if the signals don't bounce back.

Third, you don't have control over who might approach you, or when. If you're approachable and you keep the risk level low and you let on a bit that you're not the type to take the lead, sooner or later, someone will approach you, probably when you don't expect it. This can be problematic on a number of levels, but I think the problems are too obvious to bother explaining. Solutions are incredibly complicated. There's a lot of thinking you have to do about this. It's a bit of a catch-22, you don't want to be available to just anyone, you still want to hook up with the right sort of person that's suited for you, but not many opportunities are going to come your way, either. If you're really specific about things like physical attributes you're totally screwed, you can't do this. Not that you can't have standards in that regard but you have to be open-minded, for example if you really like brunettes or redheads or something, you may have to deal with never getting approached by one; so it's best to try to develop less specific preferences. And you have to pay more attention to personality, normally if you're the one doing the approaching I think there is probably a subconscious process that already filters out some personalities you wouldn't be compatible with but in the passive role this isn't true, so you have to be more conscious about it.

Also there is not much of a social model for a man being in the passive role and a woman being in the leading role, so you have to recognize that you're going to have to develop your own approach all by yourself. And there's more to it than just sitting back and waiting. Nothing happens that way, especially considering you're not culturally suited to the passive role so you have to work at it even harder than women who take that role, who make it look easy because they've got a social model that's been developed over millenia to follow and they're operating in a culture where that's the expectation. But there is actually quite a bit of strategy and effort involved, despite the relative ease they seem to have with it.

EDIT: *slaps self on forehead* I forgot the most important thing of all, you have to remember to have self-respect and enforce your barriers. You can't be pathetic and easy and desperate, or you'll never attract anything except abusive people seeking to take advantage. Despite the fact you're not going to get many opportunities and they'll all be surprises, you still have to have a take it or leave it attitude. Not easy.

All things considered, if you *can* take the other role, you should do that.

Last edited by edgewaters on 26 May 2012, 1:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I agree with this (nice job, edgewaters!) and it's broken for me, too (as a woman). I have no idea how to do all those subtle behind-the-scenes that women are supposed to do so well. But I've observed it a lot, both directly and indirectly.

Ha. That reminds me. Here most people try to split a bill up based on what people ordered (not just dating, but casual gatherings as well). When I was dating a previous boyfriend who was from Australia, we were watching an Australian show that he had introduced me to, and there was a big deal made in one of the episodes about how amazingly uncouth it was when, after agreeing to split the bill, the guy on the date starting marking off the tab. I agreed that doing that on a date was ridiculously petty, but I was otherwise used to people doing that all the time. It spawned a conversation between me and my then-boyfriend regarding how in Australia they almost ALWAYS split a bill evenly between the participants, and if people start noticing someone taking advantage or not throwing in a little extra for some expensive extra they ordered, they'll start leaning on that friend in other ways than dealing with monetary BS.

We also started talking about how bar tabs work here versus there they do a kind of round-robin and always pay cash, but that's kind of a different topic from bill splitting.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to drag out a calculator because people were going on about pennies on a bill. Such a waste of time and effort when usually by that time I'm usually ready to leave.

Yes, and some men are outright *horrified* if a woman takes a leading role. True story.