Approaching a girl - the female perspective

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Hey all.
I've been thinking about dating. I don't have much experience but know enough to know that I have no clue and that I'm missing lots of important things. I am specially puzzled about the very beginning stages of a relationship. When a guy approaches a girl and hits on her, what does the girl feel and think? Obviously, she'll scan the guy head to toe for untied shoelaces, open fly, open backpack (happens to me a lot), his cleanliness, clothes and so on.

Next, what will she feel? Just imagine, someone's hitting on you. I heard that most of girls like to be wooed or "packed", as we say. Specially when they are in a club, which is I suppose a place where people go to socialize, have fun and hit on each other. An offline dating place!
So I suppose there'll be an opener phrase, conversation, joking, and so on. There will be of course many non-verbal elements, like trying to touch the girl or get her to touch you. The more physical contact, the better, but just a light innocent touch or holding her under some pretense.

At this stage it's even more unclear. I guess the two will feel closer to each other, sometimes a lot (but that's a one night stand and we don't do that, right). Alcohol will of course work its magic. But here we have a guy and a girl, who know next to nothing about each other, their interests or their past, somehow coming to a conclusion that they might have some fun together. I'm not sure how would I like that, so how could I do that on an innocent bystander girl when I don't know what I'm doing? What do women think in this stage? Apparently they think something, because they usually give their phone number at this moment.

Now wait... I know this one. Now the guy is supposed to call back. Not too soon, not too late. He is supposed to ask her out. I suppose the girl may still feel cautious, so she'd prefer to be invited to some public place. I found a wonderful explanation on Wikipedia, dating is a form of courtship consisting of social activities done by two people with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a partner in an intimate relationship or as a spouse. Good.
Now, I'm not sure what exactly goes on on these social activities on non-verbal levels, but I suppose it is faster than I am used to. I suppose a girl expect the guy to make a move rather sooner than later, otherwise he'll blend in with the furniture. OTOH, a confident yet withdrawn man may be successful because the girl wonders why doesn't he immediately try grope her like all the others.

Anyway, in such a situation I feel like a man seated into a pilot cabin of Boeing 747, so many lights, dials, buttons and levers and no manual what to touch, push, pull, in what order, what interval and so on. I know only basics, like touching the... landing gear controls before the... takeoff would be very unwise And I do not even pretend to understand the atmospheric chemistry that leads to buildup of charge and finally a lightning of the first kiss. Because that's spontaneous. I'll do anything, just not spontaneously, unless you tell me when to be spontaneous.

Of course, there is the coward's way out, telling her all about the Asperger's syndrome and why does she need to explain everything, but I suppose it's really a way out of dating. Dating is all about romance, suspense and mystery. Does (s)he love me or not? One thing I know never to do, is to ask "was I good?" or to say "I love you." This is something the girl is supposed to discover for herself and say aloud, so that the man may say "I love you too." Never break the mystery.
I remember many such useful tips, but they all focus on the later advanced stages on a relationships. Almost nobody covers the beginnings. The pickup community is all about picking up the women and I suppose it was founded by Aspies. But I find it rather decadent, focused on one night stands and not on their feelings. We all want to be loved for what we are, right? And yet we need some protocols to get to getting some. This is what I'm asking.

Maybe trying to defeat the neurotypicals in their own game is a bad idea. Maybe I should find someone who can bear the bluntness of a situation - or somehow invent a sugarcoated version.
Girls, please elaborate. Give your perspective. Point me towards resources, websites, books.

if you love someone, you should say so, not play waiting games.

i think it's best to be blunt and say what you feel when talking to a girl you might be intrested in for it is important that you are able to speek your heart when being around people you love.

Disclaimer: I'm not a girl so I'll delete this if you want.

In my experience the solution is simple :
make lots of money and every thing you say will be perfect. it's easier to make money, than to learn to be suave x 3.5 billion.

I'm not 'completely' joking.
Women are not really after money but money does help w/safety & security (which was kinda important if you were eight and a half months pregnant and living in sabertooth-tigerville), and does (kinda) denote that you've got something going for you if you can acquire resources.
Meaning other people don't find you too weird or creepy to (financially) deal with, and you might have hidden-depths, so she might listen a little longer and/or closer.

Women seem to be mostly trying to stay away from uselessly/dangerously weird guys.

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Other than that, you're asking a question NOBODY has been able to figure out, throughout all of history.

I so wish this was true. In my experience it is not. You drop the "L" bomb prematurely and you are nearly guaranteed failure.

I'm not in love right now. Before love there is tension or suspense, and the suspense is built up by games.
When a guy says "I love you", he expects to be loved back - from a woman's point of view to use his words as a leverage to get the woman to some commitment. But for women this is a huge turnoff. They'll back off, say that they need "more space" or "time to think things over" and when they return, they'll say "let's just be friends", which is a great female insult for a man who "just doesn't get it". The "it" are the rules of the ancient game of love. Another similar female insult is "you're such a nice guy", which I've been called often enough.
I've seen and read enough to be convinced. Do you have any arguments that could debunk this?

That sounds very nice and I'd like to do that. But the point is, I'm interested in early stages of a relationship, when the love does not exist yet. There may be only smaller cousins of love, like good will, interest, imagination, desire... Waiting to grow into something greater.

Imagine relationships as wires and emotions like voltage. To get a strong voltage across to other person without burning up you need strong wires. And putting up strong, thick wires requires time and work. People normally communicate on wires of social relationships, they're thin but complex, used for low-voltage but complex social emotions. If you try to use them for some high voltage (strong personal feelings) you'll come across as a creepo or a pervert.

Yes, good advice. Useless at the moment, but in the future I'll definitely try to abide by this. That is, I plan to end up high in a state administration. You seem to undersand the female perspective, money is definitely a good qualifier for women to look out
And yeah, work is the last desperate attempt to get money

Believe it or not, there are people who REALLY figured out the female logic. I believe many of them are Aspies and they did it by brute force deciphering, attempt and error. Read a book "The Game" by Neil Strauss or a book by David DeAngelo. They made me believe that it is possible to understand women. Of course I had also read Men are from Mars... and one more similar book. I think I understand female logic, sort of.
When it comes to romantics, women do what they feel, not what they think or say. They may say they call back out of a sense of duty, but they have a bad feeling, so they don't. Maybe it's a lie, but it would be sad if women had to conduct their relationships out of a sense of duty and not the feelings.

So here I am, asking about some more subtle points at the very beginning of a relationship. Not yet a love, but the process of getting closer and opening ourselves. They seem to skip this part in just about every porno I had seen so far

I think awkward people (both with and without AS) have a tendancy to tell a woman they barely know I love you. Even as an aspie myself, that is a huge turnoff and would immediately scare me off a guy. It is way too intense. I don't think it is so much about money as security and stability. Sure a minimum wage job is low-pay but it also doesn't have good prospects for having a future together.

I would also point out from my NT sisters/mom I've observed they will keep talking to a guy who they aren't into to be polite/not hurt his feelings. They will hint they only see them as friends, and even NT guys often miss the signals.

I also think aspies tend to "let it all out". You don't need to tell someone everything about you all at once. Discovering each other overtime is a good thing. You don't need to tell your life story on a first date, and especially why your childhood sucked, or whatever.

And don't pre-plan exactly what you'll say - it will come off as cannd and rehearsed. It is fine to have an idea or to practice but if someone doesn't seem geuinely interested in you, that'll kill you.

Do I feel comfortable with this guy? Am I attracted to this guy?



I'm feeling comfrotable with this guy. I'm attracted to this guy.



No such thing as "too soon" IMO. In fact, the next meeting could even have been arranged in the first meeting. Waiting the "perfect amount of time" to me is game-playing and silly. You like me too, right? Why are you waiting three days to call me?



If we have gotten to know each other well enough for a move to be made, then yeah, someone should make a move soon. To me this is the part where it goes beyond feeling comfortable and attracted. I need to know if we have things in common, if we are on the same level, etc., before I commit to taking things to a romantic level.



Eye contact is important to build that chemistry I think. If you look across at her without speaking and she is looking back at you, with an expectant kind of smile, that's probably the cue. If you have trouble with eye contact, then I'm not sure how this works. I just watched the movie Adam, and he just went for it. Brave move...sometimes you just gotta try it I guess.



Why does she have to be first to say "I love you"? Either party can say this first, you just have to be fairly confident that you both feel the same. Perhaps don't say it when you first think you feel it...wait a bit longer to see if the feeling remains.

I dunno- I think you're talking about a certain kind of woman and scenario.
I've never been to a bar or club, don't know how to flirt, and all that.

I find it's actually a good thing to get a long conversation going online before (and between) in-person meetings. If I'm capable of having super-long conversations with someone online, the chances of the in-person chemistry being good are much better. There have only been a few women I could talk to every day for hours online though. I find that women who try to enforce the "rules" religiously end up being difficult people to be in a relationship with.

ValentineWiggin, your hair is amazing.

yellowtamarin, as a guy, I can tell you it typically takes a whole series of brave moves to seal the deal. If you're an aspie and haven't nailed the eye contact thing yet, you're going to have problems. Also, hi.

Edit: The couple aspie girls I've dated didn't make eye contact themselves for a long time, so I suppose it didn't matter much whether or not I did. It was sort of like Christmas - a Christmas where I wasn't expecting any gifts and suddenly I got a Corvette with a bow around it. I went on a date and didn't have to modify my own behavior. As you can imagine, I was fond of these girls. Neither worked out but to this day if one of them needs something, I'm on it.

He is talking about a specific scenario and the problem with that is that it's too contrived and pre-planned, socializing is similar to driving, you have to be able to improvise on the situation and have the skills to work through it in the moment. The situation is constantly changing so you can't remain static or stick to a plan, you need to be able to adapt.

Hi
I guess I'm lucky in that area, as I find eye contact difficult because it can be too intense. So, I have no issue looking into the eyes of someone I am romantically interested in. In fact, that's exactly the right time for me to do it. But apparently I'm hopeless at letting a guy know I'm interested. I made the first move on my ex, because he was taking too long, but that was because I wasn't giving him any clue that he should go for it. Complicated stuff!!

This is true--the few times I've had the woman lead the way in expressing interest, she was on the spectrum. One even nearly fell in love within the first two dates, the first of which I only half-intended to be a date. The problem is, the aspie girls who have shown interest in me, while nice people, have not only been physically well below average, but also lacking in a certain kind of "mental intensity" that is really important for me to develop actual feelings. I am an intense person whose mind races a lot of the time, and so just quiet, low-key interest leaves something lacking to me. If you don't mind this, then other aspies are probably your best bet.

Beware, though, of "nerdy" or "odd" girls sitting on the border between AS and NT. They usually have a carefree spontaneity that I find seductive, a mysterious and passionate imagination, and are easy for me to talk to. Quite a few look adorable as well. Some actually make very good friends for an aspie guy, provided he can avoid the trap of becoming attracted. I have not once gotten anything but a steadfast rejection from any one of this type, though, and almost wish I didn't know they existed, because other girls seem incredibly boring compared with them. Reading the thread by HipsterChick made me wonder whether these are the female equivalent of bad boys, except they aren't mean, they just feel no attraction to their male counterparts.

There are plenty of attractive aspie girls, and I found both of mine to be fairly intense. But yeah they were probably borderline or slightly on the AS side of borderline.

I totally agree. I was too intense on some ocassions in the past. Looks like it's important to do something together, that will save us from too much openness. Maybe a few times I botched a potential date by making a lecture out of it.

Very well, so it's actually simple. I'll remember it.

Well, I'd probably choose tomorrow afternoon for the call. Not sooner, I don't wanna show as a needy wuss.

All right, what kind of sign should I expect if you don't actually search for a relationship? In my experience, girls mention a boyfriend if they actually have one or don't expect me to check if that's true. But what if you just don't feel like it right now and want to enjoy some weeks or months alone? How would a girl get the message across? Am I supposed just to see a lack of increasing closeness to a girl and get the message?

Yeah, no gain without risk. A guy has to show courage sometime. I think I don't have a problem with eye contact, but I'll have to make it sure there aren't any lingering problems.
Anyway, let's say I make my move but it's too early for you. Some sources say it's best if I don't apologize or show any remorse. But assertively, of course. Let's say I tell you that I won't do anything that makes you uncomfortable, but I won't apologize for being a man.

OK, I'll remember.
By the way, maybe you could help me with one thing. I've met a girl recently, we talked online a couple times and we have a common interest, astrology. (don't worry, I'm rational when I need to) Finally we managed to get together on an astrologic meeting, chatted together, watched the lecture and generally had fun. She has a boyfriend, she mentioned him a couple of times and I dealt with him later on the phone.
But on that day she kept very physically close, touched me lightly many times, even on the lower back. I couldn't even look at her face, because she almost leaned onto my side Some pieces of the conversation were definitely near flirting. And when she had to go to catch the bus, she gave me a parting kiss on a cheek.
I did not mind at all, quite opposite. But it's all very puzzling. This is the first time we met personally. She has a boyfriend. She is a smart and pretty girl, decent body and face. In the past some fat and/or plain girls had hit on me obviously to fix their self-confidence, but that was not her case. And the kiss on cheek, that's highly unusual. If we'd been good frineds for years, I'd expect that. But now I don't know what to think. We know we probably won't meet anymore or not any time soon, she lives far away and I'll move away too. But I'm not sure how to get wiser about the whole situation.
What do you think it might have been about?


Valentine Wiggin: I've never been in a club as well. But it might be interesting to see how a real offline dating site works. Btw, you like Orson Scott Card too?

Yes, I want to adapt. But I can't invent everything from scratch. I need to have some idea what may be going on and improvise from there. Maybe I should watch a romantic movie with such a scenario well portrayed. Got any tips?

My brilliant observation: Men and women are different.*
My brilliant logic: If I'm profoundly attracted to woman traits, then just maybe they might be a little tiny bit attracted by man traits.* (or maybe quite a lot attracted)
My brilliant disclaimer: Except for those who aren't.
My brilliant explanation for my bleeding nose: Oh, a lamppost! Someone should put up a sign. . .

I think the Number 1 Man trait is confidence.** This, aspies have in abundance. . . when they stop automatically assuming their own perceptions and logic are wrong because everybody else says so and they're always right, just ask them, they'll tell you.

After you have the No. 1 trait, the No. 2 through 197,032 traits wont matter to you anymore so there's no point in bothering with listing them, you'll probably do most of them right anyway.
The great thing about confidence is that if some chick isn't attracted, it doesn't bug ya a bit. God made a bunch of 'em.

Being able to play some fun stuff on some musical instrument will add some nice 'spicy salsa' to your works though. =)


*yes, this took me quite a while to figure out, mostly because 'Officially' everybody tries to claim it's not true.
**this is a great trait in women too, but I have a different one in mind for their No. 1. . .
; )