What should I say next?

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The saga continues. I talked with my recently divorced AS guy for an hour tonight. I explained that if we entered into a relationship, I'm flexible: my career wouldn't necessarily come first, as it would for many other hard-charging, egotistical career women. I still have something left over at the end of the day, and would be able and willing to help him manage life's demands, to whatever extent he would be comfortable with. Psychotic, unpredictable people are my specialty, so his situation (alcoholic, borderline ex-wife, two kids in grade school) just doesn't faze me all that much. I told him I would bring all that firepower to the table, and use it in his favor. I explained that I think we have complementary strengths and limitations, and that we are letting all kinds of opportunities slip away.

He listened, interrupting mainly to express great confidence in my career track and professional capabilities. When he understood where I was going with it, he said he is "dying to drag me upstairs and ravish me," and expressed amazement and regret that I have been living like a nun for 2+ years now. But he restrains himself because it would be more than physical, and he is afraid of being unfair to me. He is "agnostic" as to whether he wants to enter a relationship, and is worried that that's where things would necessarily go, given the intensity of feeling between us. I countered that nothing hurts me more than when he says no - which he has been doing for 16 years now, and one of these days I'll stop asking. That kind of blew his mind, and was met with a heavy silence.

At this point, I think he is more afraid of his own desires than whatever expectations I might have, and that he can be worn down or persuaded. He had to go, but said he'll call me tomorrow to continue the conversation.

So, AS men: imagine that you are this guy. What would get you to "yes"?

How tempting ;) on a proper note, I think you are giving him too many options, i.e., "I am this but I can be slightly less this if you prefer" and putting too much effort into persuasion. If your cards are on the table, it's up to him to show his hand

He's been saying no to you for 16 years? We're you hitting on him when he was married?

No. We had an intense romance in grad school 16 years ago, which I broke off after a year, in large part, because he kept saying no to me. We reconciled 2 years later, and then he said no again. I mistakenly thought he didn't want me, and he mistakenly thought I didn't want him. So we went our separate ways, and married other people. A decade later, we got back in touch for professional reasons. 3 years ago, his wife threw him out, the divorce took 2.5 years, and my ex and I split up during the same time frame. All this time, we've done nothing but talk.

On one hand, that's a very good thing. We've gotten to know each other much better than we did before, which allowed me to finally figure out the AS. On the other hand, by now, all the talking is the source of my frustration! We are finally understanding each other, located in the same city, and free to have any kind of relationship we want. But he is afraid of all kinds of things I am struggling to understand. And NOT afraid of all kinds of things that he really should be, which I am struggling to articulate.

It is highly possible that he may feel emotionally guarded and afraid to take the next step for some reason. Is there anything you may have done to unintentionally hurt his feelings?

After our talk last night, I would say that his reservations are definitely not due to anything I've said or done, or not said or done. We've been very slowly negotiating our way closer, and have worked through many issues and laid them to rest. At this point, he's 100% sold. He loves me, wants me, misses me, knows I'd be good for him. Yet his thought process remains driven by, or dominated by, fear of perceived risks. I believe he is afraid of 3 things (which I will ask him about tonight):

(1) That having an adult, emotional relationship would somehow betray his kids, or otherwise constitute a breach of his loyalty to them (he is very attached to them, and has custody two weekends per month).

(2) That he will need/want me around all the time, daily (based on what our relationship was like in the old days).

(3) That he will screw up and lose me again.

Is there a way to reassure or persuade him that his fears are unfounded?

Maybe try the link I post below for some advice. Don't want to guarantee that it will help, but maybe worth a try. As for your list, I don't have kids, so a bit of (2) and a lot of (3) would come to mind for someone like me. He may be fulfilling some prophecy that he will fail then.

http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-With-a-Boyf ... s-Syndrome

Perhaps your being too forward with him & it's coming off as you kind of pushing him into some kind of a relationship. He's been hurt by a divorce & he probably really appropriates you being the supportive friend at his side; he's scared of losing that. I would suggest just continuing to be his supportive friend but let him know you would like to be more if he would like but only if he would like; do NOT make him feel pressured. He could be very insecure & needs time to feel more confident that being more than friends won't hurt you or screw up your friendship

Agreed. I finally said flat out that that nothing hurts me more than when he says no to me. I think he heard that. Tonight he texted to say that he had to postpone our conversation, because he had an awful day and wanted to spend some time with his kids, and said he was sorry to disappoint. I am disappointed, but as long as I get an explanation, I can live with it. I do wish he would quit making plans with me when he knows his weekend with them is coming up (this is the second time), but I'll address that later. I can also keep track of that myself.

Here's the thing I really can't live with. It seemed to have a huge impact on him to learn that I’ve been celibate for almost 3 years now. I've had plenty of offers but none of them interest me. Simple as that. He response was to describe all kinds of ways he'd like to remedy this lamentable state of affairs - in the process strongly suggesting that he has not been celibate during this same period. He's been clear that getting his physical needs met is something he can completely disconnect from emotionally, and for the time being, that's as far as he's been willing to go. He's also been clear that he does not want to, and can't bring himself, to use me that way. I appreciate that.

At the same time, I'm sure he doesn't comprehend how much pain it causes me. From my point of view, he freely shares the gift of himself with random people, who are possibly crazy, stalkers, or diseased, while I get deprived and punished, precisely because he has such strong feelings for me? Where is the f***ing logic in that?

I'd like to just say that to him, but I face a huge dilemma. He's already terrified of hurting me or disappointing me. So far, I've tried very hard to just keep my mouth shut and not point it out, so as not to alienate him. Yet, if he is to know, and his behavior is ever to change, I must point it out. Now, I'm thinking I will just say so, because I think he's reaching a point where's he's ready to change his behavior or move on to a new phase.

What do you guys think? How do you react when someone you love tells you that your behavior is hurting them, and asks you to please stop, and suggests an alternate behavior? Are there times when it just doesn't matter?

Thanks for the info but I think he's feeding you BS. What kinda person says they want to do "this" or "that" and then doesn't ever care to deliver?

So did every other woman he's attempted to have a relationship with, which is why they all erupt in fury and leave him. He was 29 when we met. He's 45 now. This is just how he is. Our friendship began long before our marriages, and has outlasted them, as well as developed further. One could view them as simply the intermission between Acts I and II. Our ex-spouses certainly do.


The kind of person who has insecurities and fears so deep they are difficult to fathom, given a lifetime of bullying, rejection, being taken advantage of, and feeling exiled from the human race. Attempting to gain understanding and empathy is my purpose here.

I have read your story again. I know I may not be the best help. I am glad to actually get some insight on the opposite side of the relationships for once because I almost never get any idea whatsoever, or just don't care to listen. What I fear for you though is that you will get hurt too badly that your relationship will end based on that and he might not understand why. Maybe it's time to take a chance with another person. Whether you two choose to maintain contact is totally between you two. That is just my opinion, not a suggestion.

You said you got together from professional stand point. Are you by chance his superior?

Good god, no, quite the contrary. He is 7 years older than me, and almost twice my size. He was two years ahead of me in grad school and supervised my first thesis defense. After giving me an honest grade (B+) he appointed himself my "teacher" in the bedroom. He was fascinated by the way I appeared to be comfortable winging it in front of large audiences, while having almost no sexual experience, yet I appeared fearless there too.

Anyway. He made better decisions than I did and remains my professional superior to this day. Why do you ask?

Just trying to get an idea of his behavior. I can see you wanting to help him feel more secure but don't let him keep you under his thumb.

From my point of view, his behavior is obtuse, oblivious, and quite random. Quite literally "out of sight, out of mind." He rarely has any idea of the damage he's done until he is informed. But that doesn't stop him from repeating hurtful behaviors, because he can't seem to infer general principles from one situation and apply them to another, or appreciate how different circumstances sharply distinguish two apparently similar situations. Therefore he has extreme difficulty adjusting or adapting in new situations, and appears to learn very little from his mistakes. He loves movies and TV and has thousands of memorized scripts which he has rehearsed to perfection. But he tends to panic or melt down in unscripted, fluid situations that require him to think quickly on his feet. Yet, his strange or shocking reactions (strange or shocking to NTs, that is) often create or worsen those very situations. Watching him move in the social world is like watching a blind man wandering around in rush-hour traffic. In other words, he's a classic Aspie man - plus he has no idea how to have a relationship.

All this talking-and-getting-to-know-each-other we've been doing (in very small bits, over a long period of time) is totally alien and new to him. I don't think he knows that this is how "normal" couples begin and maintain a relationship. He said he's spent far more time talking with me than any other woman he's had a relationship with (including the ex-spouse he lived with for almost a decade). He really doesn't know what to do with his kids, other than watch movies; likewise, he really doesn't know what to do with a woman, other than have sex with her. He just doesn't talk or communicate much at all, with anyone. He rarely makes conversation without being asked a direct question - and sometimes not even then, if he doesn't see why the information sought is relevant. Since most of it wouldn't be relevant to him, he doesn't understand why it would be relevant to anyone else. So sometimes I have to argue with him just to get a conversation started!

On one hand, we've had many interesting conversations, often lasting a couple of hours. He's opinionated and witty, which is fun. I also know that not a word comes out of his mouth without a good reason, so there's no meaningless babble to sort out, as there often is with NTs. On the other hand, he is exceptionally skilled at deflecting the topic of conversation away from himself, and tends to pepper me with questions, to the point that it can feel like an interrogation. Or he will ask about the same thing repeatedly, so I simplify and rephrase my answers, until, exhausted, I realize that he may not be able to comprehend the social or emotional concept that is a necessary part of the answer. I hate lying and never do it, but if there is ever to be an end to it, sometimes I have to simplify to the point that I'm leaving out so much of the truth, it feels like a lie.

So, getting him to engage in conversation to begin with, and then keeping the topic focused on him and his thought processes, have been the main obstacles I've encountered in attempting to learn more about him. Often I prepare an agenda in advance, a little list of talking points, to help me get his attention ("I'm not calling just to shoot the breeze, this is important") and to keep me on track ("we've talked enough about me, this is about you.")


Well, I'm interested in making him feel more secure, because his insecurities are preventing me from getting what I want. I like his company and spending time with him, and I also feel a strong protective instinct. I can't protect him if he shuts me out - if I can't be around and/or if he won't talk to me. I am frustrated that, after coming all this way - in terms of time, geography, and hard life experience - the phantoms in his head are the only thing keeping us apart.