Accomodating an NT partner
First off, a BRILLIANT post from albedo:
You will get plenty attitudes like that doesn't mean it is right.
I am very stubborn person there are no go areas, but I is not fair not to forewarn. A relationship is a social contract of sorts.
None of these DX are the whole person. There are a (fairly poor) way of modeling a set of traits.
People on the spectrum can be very self centric, meaning they can have difficulties seeing other people's perspective. However this doesn't mean they aren't capable of learning. It will be different than inherent behavior, but most smart people are fully capable of changing (I don't care what others say).
You are a person too.
Thank you!
So fellow Aspies, while our NT partners accomodate to our AS, what can we do to accomodate their NTness?
Given the guy I want seems to be a rather shy NT, any and all advice is welcome (ex was almost definitely an Aspie!).
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"It isn't wrong, but we just don't do it."
Gordon, "Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends: Whistles and Sneezes"
http://www.normalautistic.blogspot.com.au - please read and leave a comment!
I know that 3 things I have to put effort into are communicating daily, including conversation, giving hugs at least at meeting and leaving, but preferably others too. I also have to make an effort to regularly say I love you and other words of affection, even if my affection has not changed I need to tell him that, this should be done frequently.
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__ /(. . )
The only things I can think of that I could possibly do to help NT would be to change the topic of conversation to a more NT type, and to communicate it nonverbally more. I think this is exhausting and basically requires all the effort to be on my side. Is there something I'm missing?
I think basically aspie language is a subset of NT language, because we basically only communicate verbally. So expecting aspies to accomodate NT would be like if somebody who knew french and english started dating somebody who only knew english, and he/she expected the english speaker to learn french so that they could communicate better, or so that it would be more natural for him/her (assuming french was that speaker's native language). Obviously it would be nice if the english speaker learned french, but it shouldn't be taken for granted that they will communicate primarily in the language that only one of them knows.
So apart from making my intentions clear, and not taking it personally if my partner messes something up, I don't know what else it would be fair for me to do. A lot of people complain about very unreasonable aspie behavior, like sending ambiguous signs of commitment, lying, or not responding to emotional questions. So by helping NT, do you mean not doing these things? I don't do any of those things anyway.
I have to remember to touch him,
I have to remind myself to ask how his day was
I have to remember to listen to him, and really let him talk and not cut him off all the time.
I have to remember that he gets sick of hearing about my interests and to just chill out on occasion
I can't read him very well so I am always asking if he is okay or if he is happy or mad (he doesn't mind)
I have to remember to ask and not demand
I have to remember while I am perfectly happy only socializing with him, he needs socialization outside of the home from time to time. I can either go with him or stay home alone.
I've been married for a long time and I still struggle with communication.
He also makes compromises for me, and I thoroughly appreciate it.
Relationships are about compromise. If you are going into a relationship with someone at some point you should tell them you suck at certain things
I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect your partner to learn your native language, to the best of their ability. And try to communicate in both languages continously, not just occasionally.
I have to remind myself to ask how his day was
I have to remember to listen to him, and really let him talk and not cut him off all the time.
I have to remember that he gets sick of hearing about my interests and to just chill out on occasion
I can't read him very well so I am always asking if he is okay or if he is happy or mad (he doesn't mind)
I have to remember to ask and not demand
I have to remember while I am perfectly happy only socializing with him, he needs socialization outside of the home from time to time. I can either go with him or stay home alone.
I've been married for a long time and I still struggle with communication.
He also makes compromises for me, and I thoroughly appreciate it.
Relationships are about compromise. If you are going into a relationship with someone at some point you should tell them you suck at certain things
I suppose I'm on the opposite end of that process. Great to know it's possible (even though I'm a guy)! Seriously that was some more useful encouragement than you imagined.
_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos
Well...I think there's a pretty good range from AS (whatever it is) to NT (whatever it is). But as someone involved with a guy considerably more towards the AS side than I am, here's the shocker: nearly all the communication really has to be verbal. That may sound like a huge duh to you, but it certainly wasn't to me, and I'm a writer; I make my living with text-only, I've had multi-decade penpals, the letters wear off my keyboards quickly.
I find it more than a little exhausting living verbal-only, particularly during those brief times when we spend a lot of time together. There's a fair bit of dread on my end, too, because he's a great one for consistency, and the fact is I'm not consistent; I'm human. (He's not terribly consistent, either, but somehow that's okay.) Part of the problem's that so much language is inherently ambiguous, and often my bf doesn't recognize that he's interpreting through a singularly personal-and-blind-to-other-perspectives filter. So he'll insist through several rounds that my use of [phrase] actually means something else, therefore I must have meant that something else, therefore I'm being totally irrational or perhaps screwing with him. It takes FOREVER to clarify things, especially if anything's heated emotionally. And frankly at the end of it not only aren't we all that clear, but he's expecting that this is now Standard and Permanent Interpretation. Oy vey.
There are other difficulties, too, even in the world of words. He's a huge reader, but God help me, he doesn't understand the point of fiction that's not escapist or didactic. You know, literature. Which would be fine if he'd leave it alone, just stick to what he likes: no, all non-frothy-or-utopian fiction is Wrong and Bad Fiction, and he has to go on these jeremiads against it. It might also be tolerable if I weren't a lit person, I guess, but when he's irritated he wants to put lit (and me) on trial.
To me, it's often as though he wants me to live with the lights out. He's comfortable there, it's where his language is, but there's a whole world of communication we can't use. I'm not even very good at non-text. But it's a big change, not being able to use it, and at times I wonder if it's good for me, shutting it down -- if it makes it more difficult for me to turn it back on when I'm with more NTish people.
I find it more than a little exhausting living verbal-only, particularly during those brief times when we spend a lot of time together. There's a fair bit of dread on my end, too, because he's a great one for consistency, and the fact is I'm not consistent; I'm human. (He's not terribly consistent, either, but somehow that's okay.) Part of the problem's that so much language is inherently ambiguous, and often my bf doesn't recognize that he's interpreting through a singularly personal-and-blind-to-other-perspectives filter. So he'll insist through several rounds that my use of [phrase] actually means something else, therefore I must have meant that something else, therefore I'm being totally irrational or perhaps screwing with him. It takes FOREVER to clarify things, especially if anything's heated emotionally. And frankly at the end of it not only aren't we all that clear, but he's expecting that this is now Standard and Permanent Interpretation. Oy vey.
There are other difficulties, too, even in the world of words. He's a huge reader, but God help me, he doesn't understand the point of fiction that's not escapist or didactic. You know, literature. Which would be fine if he'd leave it alone, just stick to what he likes: no, all non-frothy-or-utopian fiction is Wrong and Bad Fiction, and he has to go on these jeremiads against it. It might also be tolerable if I weren't a lit person, I guess, but when he's irritated he wants to put lit (and me) on trial.
To me, it's often as though he wants me to live with the lights out. He's comfortable there, it's where his language is, but there's a whole world of communication we can't use. I'm not even very good at non-text. But it's a big change, not being able to use it, and at times I wonder if it's good for me, shutting it down -- if it makes it more difficult for me to turn it back on when I'm with more NTish people.
My understanding of what makes something literature is that it is a long and boring story about stupid people deliberately messing up their own lives. And I honestly think that Dr. Suess is better than Shakespeare. Does that sound like your boyfriend?
And I understand that it would be obnoxious if he kept insisting that he knew what you meant by your words better than you do. There were frequent misunderstandings between my last girlfriend and myself due to the language barrier, so whenever one of us felt like the other one was being mean or unfair, we attempted to clarify, and usually found that the misunderstanding was because one of us did not understand the connotations of the words we were using in one of the languages we conversed in. Would it be less stressful to converse verbally if he didn't fight you like that?
The thing about trying to teach someone nonverbal language who doesn't know it already is that there isn't any complete grammar book or dictionary on it, and most people aren't even aware of most of the things that they are communicating. For instance, did you know that there is a thing called an eyebrow flash that most people do when they meet someone that they would like to talk to? Or did you know that people typically round their lips and suck in a little air when they are about to say something? The importance of the last one is that it reduces confusion about who is talking when. My understanding is that it is very common for aspies to interrupt or be interrupted because they don't use or recognize these signals. And I notice that when I meet somebody and I don't use an eyebrow flash, they often act like I am being aggressive, even if the rest of my body language is normal. I usually think it is easier to try to greet someone or be greeted in some way so that they can't see my face when I do it (like if they are reading something or facing away from me) so that I don't have to bother with an eyebrow flash. They seem to assume that I've done one if I act friendly and they weren't there to see the flash. So if you wanted him to communicate like this, you would probably have to be the one to teach him, and yet you probably weren't even aware of the things I just described (and there are lots of other signals too). And another problem is that most people assume that you meant exactly what you said when you say something nonverbally, which can lead to easy misunderstandings because you can't see your own face to see what you did, and might not recognize what you did wrong even if you could. And even when someone mentions what they think you said nonverbally, there usually isn't any way to convince them of what you were actually trying to say. Most people are really merciless about this stuff, so I've found it easier most of the time not to use it to communicate (although I still try to observe it in other people), and just let other people think that I'm grumpy/asocial. I think that is generally better than putting a lot of effort into doing something when the other person doesn't even know that you have to work that hard to do it, and then you get rejected for some grammatical error or something that you were never aware of.
Northeastern292
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I have to remind myself to ask how his day was
I have to remember to listen to him, and really let him talk and not cut him off all the time.
I have to remember that he gets sick of hearing about my interests and to just chill out on occasion
I can't read him very well so I am always asking if he is okay or if he is happy or mad (he doesn't mind)
I have to remember to ask and not demand
I have to remember while I am perfectly happy only socializing with him, he needs socialization outside of the home from time to time. I can either go with him or stay home alone.
I've been married for a long time and I still struggle with communication.
He also makes compromises for me, and I thoroughly appreciate it.
Relationships are about compromise. If you are going into a relationship with someone at some point you should tell them you suck at certain things
I suppose I'm on the opposite end of that process. Great to know it's possible (even though I'm a guy)! Seriously that was some more useful encouragement than you imagined.
Compromise is definitely key to a successful relationship.
Even among auties and Aspies, the same applies. For instance, I don't mind being touched and I'm very affectionate, but not all auties react to a hug the same way. I enjoyed the intimacy that me and a girlfriend had (she's an ex, obviously). I find it easy to accommodate NTs as many NT actives I enjoy (tennis, volleyball, the beach, swimming, skiing, parties, concerts, dances). I lack the skill and cognitive abilities to excel at these things, but I try anyways. Hypothetically speaking, if I had an NT for a girlfriend, and I have in the past, it would not be a failure from the start.
I have to remind myself to ask how his day was
I have to remember to listen to him, and really let him talk and not cut him off all the time.
I have to remember that he gets sick of hearing about my interests and to just chill out on occasion
I can't read him very well so I am always asking if he is okay or if he is happy or mad (he doesn't mind)
I have to remember to ask and not demand
I have to remember while I am perfectly happy only socializing with him, he needs socialization outside of the home from time to time. I can either go with him or stay home alone.
I've been married for a long time and I still struggle with communication.
He also makes compromises for me, and I thoroughly appreciate it.
Relationships are about compromise. If you are going into a relationship with someone at some point you should tell them you suck at certain things :D
This is really good stuff.
It could be helpful to remember that one theory for Autism is call The Extreme Male Mind.
Meaning that even NT guys can act very similar to other Autistic people.
By the way it is readily possible to 'automate' (in a good way) any and/or all of these things you have to 'remember'.
This can take the load off of the daily Executive Function. You'd just pop up doing these things easily and naturally.
The explanation is probably a bit long and off-topic for me to write it all out here, you can PM me if you are interested.
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(14.01.b) cogito ergo sum confusus
Kjas
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Probably one of the things I do, especially in the beginning is ask them a lot of questions when I see what others would call a "quirk". It helps me understand how they think. Along they way you often pick up little "cues" about what they like or dislike - those go into the memory bank as important information. I do this with friends, but much more with partners.
For example, the last friend I spent time with, I learned the following: They do not like black beans. They like pizza only with cheese, and no other toppings. They cry at the sad parts in movies (also that I should not laugh when this happens ). They are very sensitive. They do not like goodbyes. They do not like people saying "Thank you" to them. They get very embarrassed and shy around people they do not know.
Things like this are things that you take the time to know, remember, and then find a way to accept, help or accommodate to make it easier for both of you when you are together.
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Diagnostic Tools and Resources for Women with AS: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt211004.html
Very much; just throw in distaste for what he perceives as gratuitous nihilism and cruelty. Because it's true, these stories are generally about terrible things happening to people, and no saving utopia's designed. What he misses is the value of archetypes and the ability to see, in life, which stories pertain to your own situations; the confirmatory value of a story that shows a view of life of people that's both familiar and revelatory; the pleasure of deep-pile realism, mimesis; the concentrated nature of lit. Lear, for instance, gets more and more useful (and enjoyable) as I age and spend more time with aging men. The Little House books, which are written remarkably well, turn out to be deep, serious, and true about the nature of the modern midwest and the settlers' descendents.
It'd be awesome if he'd stop fighting me in all sorts of ways. All kinds of situations where he's sure he knows what's best and becomes tyrannical. I'm sure we'll have many more conversations about it, but the fact is he doesn't run my life; I do. So when he insists hard enough and refuses to let go of the metaphorical wheel, sometimes I just have to grab the damn thing away from him and throw him into a metaphorical corner, and that leads to totally hurt feelings; he doesn't understand why I don't appreciate all his goodwill and superior clarity of vision (which is based on not nearly enough information).
We're figuring it out, but slowly. For my part, I really don't like the rate at which ultimata come up in my own mind. There's an entire category of "things bf can't do" that come under "respecting my person and property", and I'm always having to make it clear that if he crosses those lines, I may have to throw him out and/or say goodbye. Which is terrible -- nobody likes to live under a sword like that, and who wants to make threats, especially to someone you love? But I can't let him go grabbing at me, my things, my kid, doing whatever he's decided is the brilliant thing to do. Anyway -- these things come out, and slowly he compiles a codebook and I learn his reactions, and things improve until the next exception.
Yeah, this is the kind of explanation that makes all-verbal conversation extremely exhausting for me. It's like describing walking in realtime, or having to talk with total awareness of phonemes.
I'm also having to get used to the idea that there's a real emotion behind an obviously fake expression or conversational maneuver. Normally, if someone's pulling moves on me or giving me artificial smiles and adorableness, I'm totally turned off; it means the person's trying to scam me, use me, something like that. But this is him being loving and considerate and wanting the relationship. He knows I need that kind of thing, so will supply it. I do wish he hadn't explained so thoroughly that he doesn't know what love is, though, and is only telling me he loves me because it's polite and a substitute for a number of rather more down-to-earth feelings and desires.
yeah, it's damned unnerving to be greeted by a deadpan.
it's not so much mercilessness as an instantaneous reaction. Nothing willed about it.
yeah, that's a serious problem, and it comes up every time we have a fight. He's trying his guts out and it's totally exhausting, and then he gets zapped for one of 80,000 invisible things he never even thought about, all of which seem totally petty, so it seems to him people are just mean.
I think I might be a little unusual in this respect, but I don't think I would mind being given ultimata every once in a while, just so long as the are about a serious subject and they were well thought out. I figure nobody's love is unconditional, so there is some sort of boundary which you aren't allowed to cross in order to be with any person, so knowing what those are can only help.
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