Understanding why some AS guys "dont get women" -
28 Jan 2007, 10:09 am
Part #1
Why AS guys "don't get women" and 'don't get people' a lot of the time comes from information processing issues that most people have no idea is going on they just know "AS has problems socializing"... so I'm going to PIN DOWN some of the reasons why Aspies have problems socializing in the first place.
I was kind of unnerved by the post "Women go back to hell" so I'm here to clear up any reasons for you girls on why AS guys become like this. Part of it is not their fault, and the other component has to do with how society exacerbates their existing condition (makes it worse) then it already is. So do not take it personally, most AS guys make these rationalizations because they do not have the training and concepts to see the social world, the vision that comes much more naturally and easily to most everybody else. Many AS guys are stuck unable to "make the leap" to the proper perspective, so they make rash judgements based on their egocentric view of the world and limited experiences.
Now one big issue is that most AS guys have not been "properly" socialized, now this is quite vague term at the moment so later in another post I will try to decode it for you, but how an AS person has to go about learning to see the social world and how to behave in it must be accomplished through an analytical breakdown of how OTHER people process social information, they have to be given the perspectives of the other actors perceptions and how they process and think in a social environment.
But first lets focus on how AS guys become frustrated and come to 'hateful' conclusions about people in the first place.
There are many reasons why AS guys "hate" women, and why some also "hate" people in general. But many of them don't really "hate" all women, they are simply stuck in a kind of immaturity due to lack of experience. Their brain has not ripened (matured) to the point where they can process their experiences in relation to how OTHER people experience the world. Now, based on their usually (very limited) experience with women and socializing in the world what happens is they BACKWARDS RATIONALIZE their own experiences and failures with women into naive statements like "All women are X", this is not just a problem for AS guys either. Lots of NT people do this, both men and women. It's based on the limited ability to process their social experiences in relation to the perspectives of others.
AS guys just have a much more frustrating time navigating the social world because it leaves them sexless and loveless, and this makes them violently agitated, aggressive, and after a long enough time suicidal through deprivation of what most human beings are able to acquire much easier.
Part of the problem is that there are mainly two types of AS guys:
1) Anxious, fearful, stressed out, shy, cowardly, oblivious.
2) Loud, talkative, fearless, oblivious
Now both of these guys can flip flop over into each others category, i.e. the can be one or the other depending on the context, but mostly, many AS guys take a LONG TIME to grow and gain perspective on how their mind works and how they process social interactions, and some never manage to figure this out their entire lives.
So both AS types have problems processing "social norms", so they are oblivious about how to interact beyond basic "I need something out of you" engagement. They have extreme difficulty inferring what other people are thinking or modeling other peoples behavior. Many AS guys are not able to understand others intentions or model others behaviour at all in their minds because they lack the experience. They (usually) can't predict how people will respond to how they behave, unless it’s REALLY exaggerated and extreme unless they've been trained to understand it from witnessing it in the third person. Or, they have made it a mission and forced themselves to become more socialized by going out very frequently 3-5 nights a week to bars, clubs, or wherever and learning by trial and error.
The next problem is AS guys process social interactions in a performance based mode, i.e. outcome based. If they do not get "the expected response" they want from an engagement it will hit their self-esteem way more then it should. When it should not be affecting them really much at all, this is based on their difficulty seeing that you can't make people respond to you in a positive way all the time. There are numerous external factors beyond your control in any social situation. People will just like you or not based on 1) Their initial instincts and quick judgments based on your appearance and how you carry yourself and 2) How you behave towards them and how you make them feel when you engage them socially.
You see many AS guys are over invested in their social engagements. Their ego's are over-emotionally invested in the outcome of even the most MINOR of social interactions. So they can get "stuck" in this mode of thinking, like every little social interaction is a test that has a correct answer. So they are stuck in an analytical solving mode of thinking instead of just "letting go" and expressing themselves freely and not caring about the outcome when they really should be working on "vibing". That is, concentrating on feeling good, and making others feel good and comfortable around you when you are talking to them by consciously controlling (having practiced) your tone of voice and learned to release the pent up tension (defensive fear/anxiety) from your body language.
Next for AS guys, many have to exert great deal of effort to consciously control their vocal intonation when they imagine something to say in their minds before they vocalize it. Their mind has extreme difficulty in combining the commands that control the tone in which something is said, while at the same time sending the commands for which words to speak and the associated muscle control commands.
So when they talk and engage someone socially when the discussion is NOT talking about the things they are interested in or have much knowledge about, they experience STRESS, or "ENERGY DRAIN", when it is not about topics that are easily accessed and processed by their mind. So engaging in spontaneous social interaction taxes their minds greatly, and this often makes them TENSE, ANXIOUS and frustrated... and people pick up on and see this in their body language!
They also will have trouble coming up with conversation on the fly, and they will experience the same process I mentioned above: Their minds will be taxed to combine all these different thought streams together (vocal intonation commands, word commands, muscle commands).
This is one of the reasons Aspergers have difficulty multi-tasking, because they have to exert conscious effort to control two to three different "knobs" in their head all at the same time and this is stressful and frustrating... there is a solution to this though... PRACTICE... the more practice you have talking to people, the more your mind will adjust to it over time.
In short their minds have difficulty processing and sending commands to their body when engaging in social interaction.
Last edited by Mordy on 28 Jan 2007, 10:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
28 Jan 2007, 10:35 am
I was in a relationship with an NT woman (from 1997 to 1999), and she cheated on me and was emotionally abusive. So I can understand where a lot of guys here are coming from.
I dealt with it by raising the bar for the next partner. And I did eventually did find another partner (she and I were together from 2002 to 2006). She was an Aspie. It didn't work out because she and I had different priorities in life (I am trying to get a career started, and she had issues with her family), and we just drifted apart.
My reason for seeking another Aspie is very likely different from a lot of others on the online Aspie groups I am on. Many guys think that an Aspie female is their only hope of ever having someone. For me, it's because Aspies have a sense of individuality about them, they are not afraid to be themselves--that's why I am attracted to Aspie females. I could quite easily attract an NT female (even though, lately, they have been much older than me), but quite a few NTs tend to be very image-conscious, and concerned about what others think of them, and feeling that they have to conform to what "society" expects of them. I am not attracted to phonies. I like people who are bold enough to defy "society" and be themselves.
Tim
_________________
Who’s better at math than a robot? They’re made of math!
Now proficient in ChatGPT!
28 Jan 2007, 10:45 am
Mordy,
I can relate extremely well to what you are saying here. I've been down that road myself, and I come from those dark ages before Lorna Wing brought AS back to the medical spotlight back in '81.
It's a relief to know that AS no longer need be some kind of prison sentence to live by. There are ways for those who have AS of circumventing the condition and making themselves socially more presentable. After all, this is about us Aspergians and not about "them".
The first bit of advice I can offer is self-acceptance as well as of the tic we have. The second is tayloring of your lifestyle to stay within its limitations and focus on its strongest points. The third is to ask for honest feedback from people that are close to you and that you can trust. The rest of the experience of "fitting in" is by trial and error and that's just the way it is.
As a final option, you can join a speaker's club or a school of Public Speaking. It's all up to you, "The Aspergian", and the experience is as unique as the individual.
_________________
If "manners maketh man" as someone said
Then he's the hero of the day
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
**Sting, Englishman In New York
28 Jan 2007, 11:00 am
I can relate extremely well to what you are saying here. I've been down that road myself, and I come from those dark ages before Lorna Wing brought AS back to the medical spotlight back in '81.
It's a relief to know that AS no longer need be some kind of prison sentence to live by. There are ways for those who have AS of circumventing the condition and making themselves socially more presentable. After all, this is about us Aspergians and not about "them".
The first bit of advice I can offer is self-acceptance as well as of the tic we have. The second is tayloring of your lifestyle to stay within its limitations and focus on its strongest points. The third is to ask for honest feedback from people that are close to you and that you can trust. The rest of the experience of "fitting in" is by trial and error and that's just the way it is.
As a final option, you can join a speaker's club or a school of Public Speaking. It's all up to you, "The Aspergian", and the experience is as unique as the individual.
If Ms. Wing put AS on the spotlight in 1981, then why was it not listed in the DSM until 1994?
Tim
_________________
Who’s better at math than a robot? They’re made of math!
Now proficient in ChatGPT!
28 Jan 2007, 11:28 am
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Are you sure you meant to post that in this thread?
Tim
_________________
Who’s better at math than a robot? They’re made of math!
Now proficient in ChatGPT!
28 Jan 2007, 11:29 am
"This is one of the reasons Aspergers have difficulty multi-tasking, because they have to exert conscious effort to control two to three different "knobs" in their head all at the same time and this is stressful and frustrating... there is a solution to this though... PRACTICE... the more practice you have talking to people, the more your mind will adjust to it over time."
I thought that people with AS have great difficulty changing their thought-processes style, even with practice. This just may be what I've heard from most clinicians.
28 Jan 2007, 11:31 am
I thought that people with AS have great difficulty changing their thought-processes style, even with practice. This just may be what I've heard from most clinicians.
Not everyone with AS has it to the same extent. Some people will have more difficulty than others when it comes to issues like that.
Tim
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Now proficient in ChatGPT!
28 Jan 2007, 12:38 pm
I thought that people with AS have great difficulty changing their thought-processes style, even with practice. This just may be what I've heard from most clinicians.
It is only difficult if they stop practicing, everyone, even "normal" people will lose social skill if they do not socialize for a while, their skills will decay, this is a NORMAL process in every human being.
Clinicians by the way are kind of bending the truth somewhat, many AS guys sabotage themselves by not socializing to begin with. And yes they CAN do it with practice and learning how their mind works by listening to other AS guys who've figured this stuff out, once they have the logical and conceptual base to grasp what is going on in themselves you give them new awareness of what is going on in their heads and they can do something about it.
Clinicians are not there with AS guys as they live their lives, therefore what they say should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Most AS guys are so self-obsessed with work and special interests (academic, video games, or whatever they fancy) that they totally ignore socializing and building social skill simply because they are not psychologically rewarded for performing that behaviour, they do not get enough rewarding *stimulation* out of the activity to justify performing it. This manifests itself in what researchers call "disinterest in people" or more interest in objects/things/abstract ideas then people.
One thing you learn over the years is that experts are just as blind as the masses when they are on the wrong track to begin with or do not have the introspective insight necessary to decode how an AS mind truly operates.
28 Jan 2007, 4:53 pm
Hmm.
INteresting.
and I thought this topic was gonna be about why guys in general don't understand women.
heheh.
just joking ya'll.
Yeah.
Ya'll raise valid points. and the fact that you can think this up is muy incredible.
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I want peace for all. Simple yet elegant.
28 Jan 2007, 5:00 pm
As I understand it, the reason AS guys don't really "get", most of the time, women is because they are unable to:
1. Understand their non-verbal cues
2. "woo" them.
3. be appropriate when necessary.
at least, thats how I understand it. I'm usually very very quiet and I still can attract other women. Even had a couple of girlfriends up to date.
28 Jan 2007, 5:17 pm
1. Understand their non-verbal cues
2. "woo" them.
3. be appropriate when necessary.
at least, thats how I understand it. I'm usually very very quiet and I still can attract other women. Even had a couple of girlfriends up to date.
I agree. The first 'real" relationship I had, we had disagreements, ect.. At the time I did not know I had AS, so I did not get alot of the things she was saying, communcating with body languge, ect. Now I understand why she got so frustrated with me. I would ask her whats wrong and why she was mad, she would say 'you know". But I did'nt because of my AS. I'm NOT using my AS as an excuse, but after I found out I had AS, I looked back and it made sense.
28 Jan 2007, 6:20 pm
1. Understand their non-verbal cues
2. "woo" them.
3. be appropriate when necessary.
at least, thats how I understand it. I'm usually very very quiet and I still can attract other women. Even had a couple of girlfriends up to date.
Yep... but it also it goes far beyond non-verbal cues, thats part of the main point I was making in post #1. They have difficulty simply modeling other peoples behaviour and their intents. Even I as an Aspie have had girlfriends but I improved a lot socially with women (pulling in more girls) once I understood how other people process social information, especially girls.... trying to get "into their heads" and get an idea of where an interaction is going and what they are thinking is something many NT's develop that AS guys never really do unless they have a lot of experience.
28 Jan 2007, 9:58 pm
I can relate extremely well to what you are saying here. I've been down that road myself, and I come from those dark ages before Lorna Wing brought AS back to the medical spotlight back in '81.
It's a relief to know that AS no longer need be some kind of prison sentence to live by. There are ways for those who have AS of circumventing the condition and making themselves socially more presentable. After all, this is about us Aspergians and not about "them".
The first bit of advice I can offer is self-acceptance as well as of the tic we have. The second is tayloring of your lifestyle to stay within its limitations and focus on its strongest points. The third is to ask for honest feedback from people that are close to you and that you can trust. The rest of the experience of "fitting in" is by trial and error and that's just the way it is.
As a final option, you can join a speaker's club or a school of Public Speaking. It's all up to you, "The Aspergian", and the experience is as unique as the individual.
If Ms. Wing put AS on the spotlight in 1981, then why was it not listed in the DSM until 1994?
Tim
Tim,
I'm not too clear on the history to it but AS was unknown to the English world until Ms Wing brought it back to the medical spotlight.
Much of Dr Asperger's research was also lost in the WWII bombings, so a lot of re-researching would have had to be done.
I think the research of AS had to be rebuilt for a large part and it just needed some time and proof of evidence in those that have it before the powers that be could deem it a disability worthy of making the DSM category. Hope this helps.
_________________
If "manners maketh man" as someone said
Then he's the hero of the day
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
**Sting, Englishman In New York
28 Jan 2007, 11:22 pm
Wow, this is a terrific write-up. I can relate to many of the observations that you've mentioned on the behavior of how AS men. I myself tend to think very logically when it comes to conversations. This was especially evident at work and now my dating life. I can remember how at my commission job, when I first started, I would take every refusal from the customer to buy an extra 'add-on' way too seriously, and that would get me in trouble because the customer complained that I would be too pushy with them, and I would stress out over not making my sales 'quota'. Practice, just as you mentioned, has gone a long way to improving my sales pitch. I got better over time, and I took a week off recently. When I came back, it felt that my mind had finally digested what it needed to learn, and I was breezing through one sale and the next.
Unfortunately, I can tell that when it comes to my dating life, I still have a lot to work out. I still stress out a lot when talking to girls over Instant Messaging. I feel that I either have to say something funny to them to keep their attention, or say the 'right' answer to their questions. This causes me to say something either extremely inappropriate, take their replies way too seriously, or completely miss the context of the actual message. I hope I am getting better, because I do notice that occasionally when I just let whatever I want to say roll out of my mouth, the person at the other end seems to be more talkative and 'at ease' with me, thus making things easier. But I know I still have a very long way to go.
Anyways, kudos to this write-up. It definitely puts things in focus.
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